Is It OK to Have a 'Normal' Gay Guy as a Main (But Not Lead) Character

K

KeithK

Active member
This involves something else I am writing and kicking around. This is not my wholesome family movie I talked about here. This other thing is a little bit more edgy and has a shot at getting a R rating for language, but will definitely be PG-13 at least.

You don't see many characters who are gay in feature films - unless its your stereotypical gay guy who would give your wife a run for her money in a shopping or fashion contest, bubbly, feminine, etc when in reality most gay guys are not like that at all. They are normal people who approach the bedroom just a little bit differently. It bothers me that I know for a fact 1-3% of the males in this country are gay (yes, they are - its a proven fact) yet they only make up 0.001% of characters in feature films that are portrayed normally instead of as punching bags. (Yeah, I pulled the second statistic out of you know where, but you get my point.) In fact, I cant remember the last time when a gay guy was portrayed normally. Brokeback Mountain sure got everyone into a tizzy.

I like to stir the pot and piss people off, doing this would undoubtedly be me doing my part to upset the religious right. I mean, how dare I put a homosexual in a film and actually make him respectable rather than just use him as the butt of jokes and stereotypes. But if it makes the script unsellable, cant do it. Does throwing a hotbutton issue like this into a feature script take it off the market as far as mainstream is concerned? Does it doom the script only to be made by some forward thinking indy outlet who will be lucky to pay me $5,000 for it?

BTW, if you are wondering what type of screen writer debates these kind of questions, know that I am working on another script that is about an abortion clinic doctor who loves to perform abortions because he sees it as helping to control the world population. He likes it so much, that he starts working with another doctor to bend the rules and perform abortions when not needed and when illegal. And to make it even better, he sets up shop in in Oklahoma City, one of the most conservative places in the country. Yes, he is the hero of the story. Yes, I know that one is never going to get optioned by any of the big guys, but I am going to write it none the less, some edgy indy outfit will pick it up sooner or later.
 
Seems that a character's gayness or straightness needs to grow from and relate to who the character is and how their persona serves to advance your story. Assuming that it *is* relevant; a person's sex life is only a small proportion of who they are.

I don't think that anybody's homosexuality is a hot-button issue anymore, at least when it comes to the majority of people reading, approving, producing and directing nowadays. Obviously the people who do the Armageddon movies and similar rote-Christian-End-Times fare won't be interested, but they're pretty obviously not your intended audience, anyway.

As far as doing your part to upset the religious right, that's a thoroughly lousy reason to include or omit a character from a script. You're presumably including the character in the service of your premise and story; let the Bible-whackies be offended by whatever offends them, and focus upon what you're doing, on your end.
 
a very small number of people will refuse to consider a film with a gay character, just as a few will turn down a film with a black character, or a powerful woman, or a Muslim character etc etc. (And others will reject any film full of boring WASP males...) Far more people (both film industry and audience) will hate a film with a cliched stereotype gay/black/woman/Muslim etc.

Nevertheless, ask yourself why this character is gay - if it's only to upset The Far Right, that's kind of childish. Do something interesting with him, e.g. make him a devout Christian gay and a great father, so constantly in conflict with fundamentalist Christians and hedonist gays, something that will be interesting dramatically and force people to think about their own beliefs.

Re your abortion story, again, complicate the angles, the doctor should also be secretly sterilising his patients by some non obvious means. (And have some sneaky plan for sterilising men.)

An intriguing character will always be watchable, even to someone who hates the character's beleifs/values
 
Make the character a Black, Female, Lesbian, Muslim, prostitute with a heart of gold. Then at the resolution of the movie have the main character wake from a nap on the couch and he's really just a white guy in Colorado... That's the best way around it.
 
KeithK said:
I like to stir the pot and piss people off, doing this would undoubtedly be me doing my part to upset the religious right. I mean, how dare I put a homosexual in a film and actually make him respectable rather than just use him as the butt of jokes and stereotypes. But if it makes the script unsellable, cant do it. Does throwing a hotbutton issue like this into a feature script take it off the market as far as mainstream is concerned? Does it doom the script only to be made by some forward thinking indy outlet who will be lucky to pay me $5,000 for it?

BTW, if you are wondering what type of screen writer debates these kind of questions, know that I am working on another script that is about an abortion clinic doctor who loves to perform abortions because he sees it as helping to control the world population. He likes it so much, that he starts working with another doctor to bend the rules and perform abortions when not needed and when illegal. And to make it even better, he sets up shop in in Oklahoma City, one of the most conservative places in the country. Yes, he is the hero of the story. Yes, I know that one is never going to get optioned by any of the big guys, but I am going to write it none the less, some edgy indy outfit will pick it up sooner or later.
Click to expand...

There are some people who won't watch a movie with a gay character. But there are also some people who won't watch a movie with a zombie. No movie is going to be watched by everyone.

I don't think putting a sympathetic gay character into your script will keep the majors from being interested in it. It might do quite the opposite. I do agree with some of the other comments here that it would be wise to make him more interesting, give him more depth and conflict -- rather than just making him gay for the heck of it.

As for the abortion doctor story -- I don't understand the concept of him doing abortions "when not needed". What do you mean exactly? Most abortions are elective anyway. His apparent glee for performing abortions is going to make it difficult for even pro-choice people to connect and sympathize with him, I would think.

And there's really not a story there -- not in what you've revealed here, anyway. A story involves a goal and conflicts in reaching that goal. Perhaps he needs a nemesis who believes that abstinence is not only a better method of population control, but also reduces the spread of STD's. Their conflict/debate could illuminate various sides of this issue -- allowing you, of course, to support whichever side you choose.

My last bit of advice only has to do with the tone of the post. It borders on being offensive to Christians and conservatives. That's perfectly alright if you want your script to offend those groups -- that's your business. And many will agree. But I hope you won't offend them publicly here.

Best of luck with your scripts!
 
Guys, please watch your offhand comments about things political and religious. There are many, many viewpoints represented in the membership of this site, and we don't want a disparaging of anyone's views.

KeithK -- "stirring the pot and pissing people off" may be just fine in your films, but it's not how we roll here on the board. Please keep that in mind.

Thanks . . .
 
chapelgrovefilms said:
His apparent glee for performing abortions is going to make it difficult for even pro-choice people to connect and sympathize with him, I would think.
Click to expand...

Agreed. I don't know anybody, even the most passionately pro-choice advocates, who regard abortion procedures themselves as cause for celebration or glee, no matter how important they find the protection of a patient's right to choose the treatment.

A physician character who enjoys performing abortions sounds like either a caricature, or maybe kind of sick. I don't know if that's what you want to portray, or not.
 
David Jimerson said:
KeithK -- "stirring the pot and pissing people off" may be just fine in your films, but it's not how we roll here on the board. Please keep that in mind.

Thanks . . .
Click to expand...

No, right, I understand that. And my goal is not to do that here. I debated whether I should post this at all, but this forum seems to be comprised primarily of thinking people who are able to see the forest from the trees and focus on my question rather than get sidetracked by the subject itself. That determination made, and the fact that I really DO need advice on the subject, I decided to roll the dice and post it. In other words, I felt we had a higher-than-average maturity level here and could handle the topic without it devolving into a flame war. If the mods feel its not appropriate subject matter, know that while I disagree (as it is film and forum related) I wont be offended if the thread goes away. But I would like to have a printed copy of it if it gets deleted so I dont lose the already valueable suggestions that have come out thus far, so I'd appreciate some warning before it dies so I can print it or if a mod would do a screen capute or PDF or something.

Sad Max said:
Agreed. I don't know anybody, even the most passionately pro-choice advocates, who regard abortion procedures themselves as cause for celebration or glee, no matter how important they find the protection of a patient's right to choose the treatment.

A physician character who enjoys performing abortions sounds like either a caricature, or maybe kind of sick. I don't know if that's what you want to portray, or not.
Click to expand...

Actually, he is sick. But his sickness and his actions have a message behind them. He is a little Hitler in training. Its an edgy film (that most likely will never get seen by more than some film festival audience and maybe not even that) and most definitely will not be suitable for the easily offended or young children.

There are two main types of projects I focus on creating/writing: Those to make money by telling a good story (i.e. my nice, sterile, P/C family film) and those to make a point, or poke at an issue. Usually the first catagory are mainstream projects and I do not plan to sell them for less than $100K, period. The second catagory are usually, because they are so unaorthadox, not going to be mainsteam marketable and so are relegated into the "I wrote them because I want to see them made" catagory. That means if an indie outfit comes to me with $500 in the form of a post-dated check which may or may not clear based on if they run out of money before the film gets made, a promise from one dollar theature somewhere to show it and a promise to give me a slice of the pie if it goes Blair Witch on them, I am probably goinna let them have it.

Usually the second catagory is me making a very biased rendition of one take on a given issue that would be something akin to mixing a Michael Moore film with a horror film and then packaging it up as propaganda to sell that viewpoint indirectly. Basically, I want to take an issue and turn it on its end and say what people dont say about it in polite company, dig below the surface and tap into the raw emotion. And when they leave the screening, I want them thinking about the issue, even if thier only thought was "Wow, whoever wrote this is a nut!". And usually the first category of film is written with mainstream in mind because, to be perfectly honest, Indy cant make me rich because they cant afford to pay what I want for the film. Thats not to say that I wont result to indie out of desperation, or sell them for less than I wanted or that some indie outfit wont come along and offer me what I want (some of them ARE financed well) but its just not who I have in mind.

chapelgrovefilms said:
There are some people who won't watch a movie with a gay character. But there are also some people who won't watch a movie with a zombie. No movie is going to be watched by everyone.

I don't think putting a sympathetic gay character into your script will keep the majors from being interested in it. It might do quite the opposite. I do agree with some of the other comments here that it would be wise to make him more interesting, give him more depth and conflict -- rather than just making him gay for the heck of it.

As for the abortion doctor story -- I don't understand the concept of him doing abortions "when not needed". What do you mean exactly? Most abortions are elective anyway. His apparent glee for performing abortions is going to make it difficult for even pro-choice people to connect and sympathize with him, I would think.

And there's really not a story there -- not in what you've revealed here, anyway. A story involves a goal and conflicts in reaching that goal. Perhaps he needs a nemesis who believes that abstinence is not only a better method of population control, but also reduces the spread of STD's. Their conflict/debate could illuminate various sides of this issue -- allowing you, of course, to support whichever side you choose.

My last bit of advice only has to do with the tone of the post. It borders on being offensive to Christians and conservatives. That's perfectly alright if you want your script to offend those groups -- that's your business. And many will agree. But I hope you won't offend them publicly here.

Best of luck with your scripts!
Click to expand...

Well, when I said working on it, what I should have said was I dictated about 23 minutes and change worth of notes about premise and what the story could be into my little Sony thing and its currently sitting on my removeable HDD in a folder entitled "Crazy Movie Ideas to Work On Later". But I am thinkiing about it, so I count that as working too. I have not revealed the story because honestly, I don't know all the components yet, haven't gotten that far. It was just an edgy partial plot I thought I could have some serious fun with. As I eluded to in the above reply, abortions when not needed means he crosses the line into murder (although I am well aware some will feel the line was crossed well before then) in a quest to reduce the population.

Also as stated above, its not my intent to offend anyone here. And just because I want to stir the pot (and maybe slosh some over the side while I am at it) in a film does not mean I have ill feelings towards them as people. It more likely means I am capitalizing on something I precive to be worthy of capitalization and using it to drive a point home. I respect all people whatever they belive and respect thier right to belive whatever they belive. My problem comes in when it goes from other folks having beliefs to them trying to make me have thier beliefs and thats a line I want to explore/aspect that I want to explore on the screen somehow.

Back to the gay character, your reply is what I was looking for. Basically, I was not sure how putting a "normal" gay guy without capitalizing on the various stereotypes would affect the chances of selling to mainstream. In essence, I needed to know how that would effect the "classification" of my script within my two type system mentioned below.

aurantaurant said:
Make the character a Black, Female, Lesbian, Muslim, prostitute with a heart of gold. Then at the resolution of the movie have the main character wake from a nap on the couch and he's really just a white guy in Colorado... That's the best way around it.
Click to expand...

Of the movies I have watched where this kind of thing was done, I have never found them entertaining. When the guy wakes up, usually that the end of the movie or something and I usually wind up yelling at the TV (yes, I do talk to my TV sometimes... I shouldnt admit that... makes me sound crazy...) "What was the freckin point!?!?!?". Now that I have disected movies and played around in scripts, I have seen that for the cheap trick it is. IMHO, used by a writer who is too chicken to take his REAL idea and put THAT on the exec's desk. In another words, a sellout. I'd rather not write it at all if I have to sterilize it somehow to give a squeamish public an out.

clang said:
a very small number of people will refuse to consider a film with a gay character, just as a few will turn down a film with a black character, or a powerful woman, or a Muslim character etc etc. (And others will reject any film full of boring WASP males...) Far more people (both film industry and audience) will hate a film with a cliched stereotype gay/black/woman/Muslim etc.

Nevertheless, ask yourself why this character is gay - if it's only to upset The Far Right, that's kind of childish. Do something interesting with him, e.g. make him a devout Christian gay and a great father, so constantly in conflict with fundamentalist Christians and hedonist gays, something that will be interesting dramatically and force people to think about their own beliefs.

Re your abortion story, again, complicate the angles, the doctor should also be secretly sterilising his patients by some non obvious means. (And have some sneaky plan for sterilising men.)

An intriguing character will always be watchable, even to someone who hates the character's beleifs/values
Click to expand...

No disrepect intended, but I am not asking about watchable. Anything is watchable. I was asking about sellable as it relates to mainstream. The two are related but do not always go hand in hand (and sometimes they do, depending on the story line) and by the same token are not always (but can be) polar opposities. Also, thank you for the suggestion on how to make him even more disturbing. I want him to be disturbing and make people angry and outraged, but his dialog will make the audience say "Ya know, the doc DOES have a point... sort of... and I wouldn't admit it to anyone... but MAYBE I agree..." and then as soon as they have that thought I want them to feel dirty about having even having it. I want them to feel conflicted, which will accomplish my main goal: I want to get them thinking about the issue.

Sad Max said:
As far as doing your part to upset the religious right, that's a thoroughly lousy reason to include or omit a character from a script.
Click to expand...

On this premise, I have to respectfully disagree. Some characters exist solely to make a point in my films. And sometimes, the only point they make is to highlight something that I percive to be bad about some school of thought. In that way, they do advance the storyline, but it wont be obvious to some members of the audience because, to be quite honest, some of them will be too dense to get it. I realize that may be incredibly sanctimonious and arrogant of me, but like I said above, two types of projects I work on and with some of them I am not angling for big box office sales or appeal to mainstream, I am trying to be controversial and unnerving on purpose, I am more or less writing a propaganda piece to express MY personal feelings in a dramatic way on a given issue, just like Ann Coulter or Al Franken pen books to express thier disdain with the way the other side approaches things.

---

Thanks for all the suggestions and input, much appreciated.
 
There's a difference between advancing a perspective that will likely offend a given group, and making offending that group the goal in and of itself.

It sounded as though you were intent on the latter; I guess it's more the former.
 
Did you miss all of the Gay films that play every week at Urban cinemas? Or maybe that cable network that has just regular shows and TV movies with Gay leads?

Or KISS KISS BANG BANG - Warner Bros movie with Val Kilmer as a tough, hard boiled private eye... who happens to be Gay?

- Bill
 
As a screenwriter, the first thing you ask is:

How does this move the story FORWARD?

A character, especially the LEAD CHARACTER, of any story is looked under the microscope. Every quirk, misunderstandings, every word.

The thing is not whether or not your character is gay, it's HOW DOES IT MOVE THE STORY FORWARD?

How does any type of quirk your LEAD CHARACTER have make me want to turn the page? Does he have a disorder? As Good As It Gets.... that moved the story, FORWARD.

That's all you need to think about.

Charli
 
Keith specifically says that the gay character is not the LEAD character. Even so, Charli's advice is sound. Every character should have a purpose that moves the story forward.

Make the character interesting. Make him vital. Make him flawed. Give him a purpose. Give him value. Then make him gay, if you choose to.
 
KeithK said:
You don't see many characters who are gay in feature films - unless its your stereotypical gay guy who would give your wife a run for her money in a shopping or fashion contest, bubbly, feminine, etc when in reality most gay guys are not like that at all [...] In fact, I cant remember the last time when a gay guy was portrayed normally. Brokeback Mountain sure got everyone into a tizzy.
Click to expand...

Film/TV are ultimately under the control of market forces, and historically have been behind the curve in portraying the real world. Such was the case for race for the longest of time (see documentary "Color Adjustment"). 'course, there are certainly scores of movies with non-stereotypical gay characters--they're just not in the mainstream market.

What's your logline/plot for your non-stereotypical gay guy? Is it essential, or do you just want to "balance out the character imbalance"?

Whatever it is, I think you'll find that a *good* story will open more doors so you can do whatever voodoo you want to do. Writing in a non-stereotypical gay for the sake of shock & awe or 'cause it's under-represented...well, just do it well.

I used to provide coverage for a talent agency and I can't tell you how many crap scripts I got with under-represented causes, for example, hermaphrodites or sex change operations. We don't care if it's shocking. We don't care if it's under-represented in movies. If it's executed poorly, no one is going to recommend it to a director or a producer.

I guess my long point is that if you want to make a point in your movies, that's awesome, but be careful that you don't use that as an excuse for poor storytelling

and that's my .02 :-D
 
_joe said:
What's your logline/plot for your non-stereotypical gay guy? Is it essential, or do you just want to "balance out the character imbalance"?
Click to expand...

I guess its some of both but more the latter. I dunno, I guess as I am thinking about the idea I just say to myself "hmm, that one should be gay. That's a good curveball to throw about now just when they think he is a family guy, that'll teach the reader to think s/he already knows where they are going before they get there in MY films!". I guess its partly me being a brat, too. I have always had a brat streak in me and sometimes, I'd do things just because I know other people don't like it. Childish, yes, I know.

wcmartell said:
Did you miss all of the Gay films that play every week at Urban cinemas? Or maybe that cable network that has just regular shows and TV movies with Gay leads?

Or KISS KISS BANG BANG - Warner Bros movie with Val Kilmer as a tough, hard boiled private eye... who happens to be Gay?

- Bill
Click to expand...

I guess I did. I dunno, the balance just seems to be off IMHO. I don't go to the movies that often. I usually watch things on SHO or HBO when they finally make it there. And if they didn't advertise it heavily, I probably didn't notice it. I was really surprised that Shotime put Queer as Folk into production and I was even more surprised that they kept it four four seasons (or was it five...) and I do have to say, that was a ballsy move and it increased my respect for the network. It actually gives me hope that some of the things I am filing away in the "indie - I'll never make a profit on these if I sell them at all" bin may some day come out and be HBO/SHO films since those two networks both seem to be willing to push the envelope surprisingly far these days. Some of the more ballsy things I am working on I'd really like to see made by an outlet that could do them justice and I know that those networks have the resources to take a good script and turn it into a good movie. Not saying that indie sucks or anything like that, but indie is indie, its low budget and they just dont have tons of cash to blow on special F/X and post production magic.

Sad Max said:
"Homophobes.

They never check the crotch."
Click to expand...

LMAO, now that's classic. If only I could come up with such witty things for my characters to say. :2vrolijk_08:

chapelgrovefilms said:
Keith specifically says that the gay character is not the LEAD character. Even so, Charli's advice is sound. Every character should have a purpose that moves the story forward.

Make the character interesting. Make him vital. Make him flawed. Give him a purpose. Give him value. Then make him gay, if you choose to.
Click to expand...

Yeah, that advice is very sound I agree. Part of the thing I worry about is by making a major character gay it may start to take away from the star of the show and distract the audience from the main attraction. I want them to be distracted enough to notice that my character has personality, but not so distracted that they start to miss key steps along the way.
 
KeithK said:
Part of the thing I worry about is by making a major character gay it may start to take away from the star of the show and distract the audience from the main attraction. I want them to be distracted enough to notice that my character has personality, but not so distracted that they start to miss key steps along the way.
Click to expand...

If your only reason for making a character gay is to spit in someone's eye, then don't do it -- it's bad storytelling.

You seem to want to make this gay character prominent enough to grab people's attention, but not by making him flamboyant or funny or actually very unique at all. You want to make him essentially 'normal, but gay' -- and yet still be a red flag waving in someone's face. I'm not sure how you'd do that without it being contrived. At least, not in any way that would make him the attention-grabber you seem to want.

Sure, you could create a scene where the main character happens across this gay character out on a date with his boyfriend. But I get the feeling you want him to really slap the audience across the face with his sexuality, and merely bumping into him with another guy isn't going to accomplish that. And you certainly can't keep showing him over and over and over in the company of his male companion.

It seems to me the only way to accomplish your goal is to make your LEAD the 'normal, but gay' character. The leads are the only ones we really delve into that deeply -- everyone else is pretty much there just to help the leads along the way.
 
wcmartell said:
Then why would you try to write one, or even care about what kinds of movies get made?

- Bill
Click to expand...

Because what goes to the theater is usually what winds up on cable, TV and/or DVD two years later. I didn't say I don't watch movies. I said I just don't go to the theater to see them as often as I used to. Part of it is that I have a hard time justifying a $25 per person expenditure for 2 hours of entertainment. A good theater with halfway comfortable seats is $10, plus $5 for something to eat and driving there costs at least $10. For the cost of two movie tickets a month, I have ALL the premium channels on dish, can watch the movies when I want, can DVR them so I can pause and re-wind to aid in dissection of plot elements and such, don't have to fight traffic or deal with annoying movie theater customers and can make my own popcorn. Perfectly logical to me.

chapelgrovefilms said:
It seems to me the only way to accomplish your goal is to make your LEAD the 'normal, but gay' character. The leads are the only ones we really delve into that deeply -- everyone else is pretty much there just to help the leads along the way.
Click to expand...

Well, I suppose I could make an abortion doctor who likes to perform abortions and make him gay. Just mash two ideas into one. But most people are really going to hate that character after I get done with him, so that almost comes across as gay bashing, doesn't it or doesn't it? Would be like putting a black guy in a film and making him a vicious serial killer and making all the cops white. Would result in an instant charge of racism, or in this case bigotry.

I guess I really need to think more on exactly where I want my story to go before I address this issue.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top