Filming to get the most latitude: WHAT does it mean?

J

Jackson Miller

Well-known member
Hello. I am trying to understand this and if you guys could explain this to me I would really appreciate it.

Currently, like many others, I am trying to decide whether to purchase an ex1 or an HPX170. Someone told me that the settings on the ex1 can be tweaked to get footage looking like HPX footage but that they prefer to arrange the settings so that they have the most information and latitude possible to utilize during post grading and CC.

So, I understand this in theory, but what settings would be ideal for the most information? Is it just the factory settings? Why wouldn't a film look be good to color correct from?

And what does that footage, coming out of the camera actually look like? Is it video-y? Why does this provide the most info, I don't get it.

Thanks a million.

Oh and one more question. To color correct this video, would the full clips be color corrected right after being imported (this seems easiest) and fine tuned later, or would all of this be left until the end?
 
Im still learning all this myself. This may sound crazy but I generally dont color correct at all. Simply because I dont know how to really. Im an old school cut and splice man. Fades and dissolves are all I do in FCP.

But from what I hear its safest to shoot as neutral or with the greatest lattitude possible so you have the option to tweak the image later. So get as much information in the black areas, shadows etc and as much information, change of tone in the whites ( I think this is where Knee settings come in to play) The image may seem too neutral or washed out but it has the latitude for CC. I just try to get it right when shooting. Always careful not to blow out the highlights, lose too much tone in the blacks.

Ex1 default setting for colors is very neutral compared to the HVX.
 
Would it have happened to have been Jon Sands on Vimeo? :) Sorry I haven't gotten around to responding yet.

What I meant by adjusting the picture profile for the most latitude/information, is that I have it set up so I can capture the most dynamic range of a scene. And by that I mean I lighten the blacks so I can retain detail in the dark dark shadows, and I also compress the highlights, so in the brightest portion of the image, such as the sky, I still have detail and it isn't completely white or blown out. That gives me the most information to work with in post, so if I want a dark contrasty look, I can crush the blacks. But if I want a smooth film like look, I can go for it easily because I have those lightened shadows and highlight information to work with.


Straight out of the camera it doesn't look "bad", but it can look pretty video-ey. Like I told you on Vimeo though, for me it's no bother as I grade everything. Here's the before and after for construct. top is straight out of the camera - http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/2480/bfaftwq5.jpg
 
Fohdeesha said:
Would it have happened to have been Jon Sands on Vimeo? :) Sorry I haven't gotten around to responding yet.

What I meant by adjusting the picture profile for the most latitude/information, is that I have it set up so I can capture the most dynamic range of a scene. And by that I mean I lighten the blacks so I can retain detail in the dark dark shadows, and I also compress the highlights, so in the brightest portion of the image, such as the sky, I still have detail and it isn't completely white or blown out. That gives me the most information to work with in post, so if I want a dark contrasty look, I can crush the blacks. But if I want a smooth film like look, I can go for it easily because I have those lightened shadows and highlight information to work with.


Straight out of the camera it doesn't look "bad", but it can look pretty video-ey. Like I told you on Vimeo though, for me it's no bother as I grade everything. Here's the before and after for construct. top is straight out of the camera - http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/2480/bfaftwq5.jpg
Click to expand...

Ah I see, so you are the 17 year old who bough a camera instead of a car? My story is similar haha. I think I understand but it just seems weird that the best way to get a contrasty look is to film without a lot of contrast. Also, It doesn't make sense that a flat image has greater dynamic range than one with a range of a more extreme black to a brighter white... does it?

One more question. What role does color saturation play in all this?
 
It does make sense that a flat image has greater dynamic range

when you up the conrtrast you risk either blowing the highlights or losing information to black

Im a stills photographer and no Ex1 expert yet but shooting flat and bumping up the contrast in post would seem to be the way to go

My observation of the EX1 without having changed the picture profiles is that highlights blow easily and horribly and unrecoverably (compared to a nikon D3)

S
 
You beat me to to it..
Very true. You can take any camera and crank the contrast. This does not imply you maximized
the dynamic range. Like Morgan pointed out, you risk the possbility of prematurely blowing out your highlights and crushing your blacks
 
Ok. But is there a point where you should no longer flatten the image and it will no longer help? Also, any disadvantages to filming this way aside from extra post time?

I am also still curious as to what role saturation plays in this. Should the colors also be flat or should they be saturated?


Thanks guys!
 
Entity, you bring up a good point.

I think the term "flat" is tossed around generic. You really have the options of doing it in the camera, during post, or both for that matter.

What's important, and I believe we all agree here, is not to overexpose and to not crush your blacks so much that shadow detail is lost. Many, including myself have shot video thinking all was well until later in post found one of the color channels clipped (such as red)

Some really shoot for nailing a well balanced color spectrum with some headroom left over for adjustment.

Others go with the look right out of their camera. It's really your choice. There's no right, or wrong.
Having on board tools for checking levels is essential. My understanding is the HPX170 shines in this department.

I've brought this up before, but many of us will be buying the RED Scarlet. If the Scarlet follows RED suit, all of the color corrections and including gamma levels/curves will be done in post.
 
Generally picture-profiles can't change the latitude of a camera (as long as they don't change the clipping-points). Bright gamma-curves (= a lot of highlight-compression) actually don't increase the latitude of the camera, but help to exploit the also limited latitudes of components later in the signal-chain like compressed formats and viewing-devices:
-displays have limited latitudes
-our eyes' latitude is very high, but gets decreased by background-light in the viewing-room and blooming

What is latitude?
Latitude is the ratio of the lightest light and darkest light visible.
Latitude is totally determined by the signal-to-noise-ratio of the lighest light captureable. Why? Because how dark the light may get until it gets invisible depends on the noise-floor, because if something is "too dark", then it is darker than the noise, so it can not be distinguished from it.
Generally the main-noise-sources are the sensors. Also a noise-source is quantization especially done by jpeg-like compression-algorithms like mpeg2 or dvcpro.
 
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Entity said:
Ok. But is there a point where you should no longer flatten the image and it will no longer help? Also, any disadvantages to filming this way aside from extra post time?

I am also still curious as to what role saturation plays in this. Should the colors also be flat or should they be saturated?


Thanks guys!
Click to expand...

Increase in saturation will lead to a tendency to blow colour channels

In camera or post ?

Adjusting in camera will most likely provide the best reults - but you would really need to be shooting carefully with a decent monitor

By shooting flat and adjusting in post you are creating a safety margin for your self

Of course the way to lower dynamic range in a scene and bring the scene into the narrow dynamic range handleable by the camera is to use lighting or reflectors to lift the dark areas and/or ND grads etc on skies to darken the light areas

S
 
just shoot to maximize your DR, retaining shadow and highlight information, because, simply put, you cannot retreive those once they are lost.
 
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