Feedback
- Thread starter Gord.T
- Start date
MrFluffy
Well-known member
(IE lost my first attempt at this reply, took 10 minutes to write as well).
I've been playing with some ideas for entering this fest, but I wanted to see if I could pull off any of the ideas before announcing my desire to enter. Im going to be combining custom shot footage with CGI from XSI, matchmoved with Syntheyes and compositied with Ae. And its my first time doing anythig this complicated.
As for feedback I have some thoughts on the lack of entries.
When I first saw the title of the forum "CGFest" I popped in and there was a little announcement about doing a fest but no real details. At that pointI was of the opinion that I would not be entering as it was "CGFest".
When I see and talk to people about CG they think Toy Story or Beowolf. Pure CG, no film. When you think in terms of VFX you think, The Matrix, Batman, Supernatural, etc. While VFX covers CG the reverse is not true.
So I think that while you are happy to have pure CG, the title should have been something like "VFXFest - Supernatural". This would appeal to filmmakers and VFX artists more than CGFest. Compositors would probably not even bother to read any posts.
If I hadn't of popped back later and read the details, which I still dont think say VFX loud enough, I would never have realised that VFX was ok for this and even thought about entering.
This is also a fest that requires considerable investment in time and equipment before you can even consider playing. Anyone can pick up a camera and shoot a basic, if bad, film. CG/VFX takes a lot of skill before you can do even the most basic of scenes.
Finally, I count that there are currently 4 other movie fests and 1 script fest plus photography. This may simply be work overload and if the fest title is not catchy enough it may simply not draw enough attention.
You guys are doing a great job so please dont take any of what I have said as a critisism, rather than hapefully useful feedback.
I've been playing with some ideas for entering this fest, but I wanted to see if I could pull off any of the ideas before announcing my desire to enter. Im going to be combining custom shot footage with CGI from XSI, matchmoved with Syntheyes and compositied with Ae. And its my first time doing anythig this complicated.
As for feedback I have some thoughts on the lack of entries.
When I first saw the title of the forum "CGFest" I popped in and there was a little announcement about doing a fest but no real details. At that pointI was of the opinion that I would not be entering as it was "CGFest".
When I see and talk to people about CG they think Toy Story or Beowolf. Pure CG, no film. When you think in terms of VFX you think, The Matrix, Batman, Supernatural, etc. While VFX covers CG the reverse is not true.
So I think that while you are happy to have pure CG, the title should have been something like "VFXFest - Supernatural". This would appeal to filmmakers and VFX artists more than CGFest. Compositors would probably not even bother to read any posts.
If I hadn't of popped back later and read the details, which I still dont think say VFX loud enough, I would never have realised that VFX was ok for this and even thought about entering.
This is also a fest that requires considerable investment in time and equipment before you can even consider playing. Anyone can pick up a camera and shoot a basic, if bad, film. CG/VFX takes a lot of skill before you can do even the most basic of scenes.
Finally, I count that there are currently 4 other movie fests and 1 script fest plus photography. This may simply be work overload and if the fest title is not catchy enough it may simply not draw enough attention.
You guys are doing a great job so please dont take any of what I have said as a critisism, rather than hapefully useful feedback.
Neal Buconjic
Well-known member
Guys,
I'm truly blown away by the talent and skill level required to the things you do. It's WAY beyond me. But I check in here daily to see the WIPs, as I think this stuff is very interesting AND inspiring.
I'd love to participate, but my skill level taps out at a mediocre compositor (and I just learned to do that over the past month).
I wasn't sure I understood the rules of the fest. I didn't know the running time requirements. I've noticed in a past fest that the clips were maybe 10 seconds long? I understand that your work is VERY intensive, requiring long render times.
I thought of writing a short supernatural scene, shooting it with my HVX then using AE for VFX to sell it. But when I saw some of the WIP threads I realized that I was WAY off the mark. It seemed that CGFest requires 3D, MAYA, etc. and not compositing with AE.
I still check in to see the updates, but I don't have the skills (nor the programs!) to participate.
Good luck guys.
I'm truly blown away by the talent and skill level required to the things you do. It's WAY beyond me. But I check in here daily to see the WIPs, as I think this stuff is very interesting AND inspiring.
I'd love to participate, but my skill level taps out at a mediocre compositor (and I just learned to do that over the past month).
I wasn't sure I understood the rules of the fest. I didn't know the running time requirements. I've noticed in a past fest that the clips were maybe 10 seconds long? I understand that your work is VERY intensive, requiring long render times.
I thought of writing a short supernatural scene, shooting it with my HVX then using AE for VFX to sell it. But when I saw some of the WIP threads I realized that I was WAY off the mark. It seemed that CGFest requires 3D, MAYA, etc. and not compositing with AE.
I still check in to see the updates, but I don't have the skills (nor the programs!) to participate.
Good luck guys.
joeloud
Active member
I've been watching the WIPs since I first noticed the fest was open, but I didn't even realize this was actually open until a few days after. I kept checking and only seeing the "coming soon" post, and quit looking, so I had no idea it had started up. Unfortunately, when I saw the contest rules, I was disappointed that I couldn't really participate because of the deadline.
I was interested in working with some CG people on something, but the bigger fests have much longer deadlines. I've done CG as a hobby, but not professionally, and I know exactly zero CG artists personally, so I most certainly wouldn't be able to get anything of any quality together by the 22nd of December by myself.
I used to frequent the old LWG message boards when I was much more into Lightwave. I think they still do it on Foundation3D boards, but LWG had a texture competition every month. They'd supply a model, and everyone was supposed to texture it. That's all you had to do, and you had a month. Here, you have to model, texture, rig, potentially animate and render out your still or animation in the same amount of time.
A month to do all that might be fine for some people, but most of the people here aren't CG artists, so one suggestion might be to integrate filmmaking into this competition. The competition obviously isn't explicitly excluding filmmaking, but the deadline could easily be a deterrent unless you already had everything you needed in your back yard.
Just off the top of my head, what you could do is provide some footage and tell people they have to match-move it and integrate something, anything into the video. Or contestants have to make a 30-60 second video, and have at least one VFX shot or entirely CG.
Or possibly make it a full-blown DVXFest, where you have to make a short, maybe 4 or 5 minutes or less, that involve at least X CG shots, or be entirely CG. I don't know, something where you could involve the filmmakers here who I'm sure would love to work with you guys. Personally, I would love to direct an animated short. But a lot of us know more about cameras than about 3D modeling and animation.
I was interested in working with some CG people on something, but the bigger fests have much longer deadlines. I've done CG as a hobby, but not professionally, and I know exactly zero CG artists personally, so I most certainly wouldn't be able to get anything of any quality together by the 22nd of December by myself.
I used to frequent the old LWG message boards when I was much more into Lightwave. I think they still do it on Foundation3D boards, but LWG had a texture competition every month. They'd supply a model, and everyone was supposed to texture it. That's all you had to do, and you had a month. Here, you have to model, texture, rig, potentially animate and render out your still or animation in the same amount of time.
A month to do all that might be fine for some people, but most of the people here aren't CG artists, so one suggestion might be to integrate filmmaking into this competition. The competition obviously isn't explicitly excluding filmmaking, but the deadline could easily be a deterrent unless you already had everything you needed in your back yard.
Just off the top of my head, what you could do is provide some footage and tell people they have to match-move it and integrate something, anything into the video. Or contestants have to make a 30-60 second video, and have at least one VFX shot or entirely CG.
Or possibly make it a full-blown DVXFest, where you have to make a short, maybe 4 or 5 minutes or less, that involve at least X CG shots, or be entirely CG. I don't know, something where you could involve the filmmakers here who I'm sure would love to work with you guys. Personally, I would love to direct an animated short. But a lot of us know more about cameras than about 3D modeling and animation.
Mattykins
Cute Member
Guys,
Raptor and I discussed this. We changed the fest to CG Fest so we could incorporate VFX and full CG integration. Since technically everything you do in AE is basically CG at the truest extent of the definition. Maybe next time we will make this more clear.
And I understand the time constraint. We tried to keep it going once a month to allow it to move along. Though I am feeling the pressure here on my entry with a month. I am trying something new - and it's kicking my ass.
Needless to say, I also have a lot on my plate. We might be adjusting the time frame pending discussion from this feedback.
Raptor and I have several ideas for fest entries. Some are going to be the format you see now. We give you genre - you make it happen. Nothing's stopping you from gathering footage yourself to matchmove. We tried to keep it open and allow nearly everything. Other ideas are based on workshop. Where you need to matchmove something. Or you need to do this or that.
Ideas for fests are tough. Raptor and I had a list of like twenty concepts. I ruled 3/4ths of them as "stupidly impossible to do".
A name adjustment is certainly an option now. I look forward to hearing what others have to say. And no worries about the criticism. We asked for it - we need it. This failed twice before.
-Matt
Raptor and I discussed this. We changed the fest to CG Fest so we could incorporate VFX and full CG integration. Since technically everything you do in AE is basically CG at the truest extent of the definition. Maybe next time we will make this more clear.
And I understand the time constraint. We tried to keep it going once a month to allow it to move along. Though I am feeling the pressure here on my entry with a month. I am trying something new - and it's kicking my ass.
Needless to say, I also have a lot on my plate. We might be adjusting the time frame pending discussion from this feedback.
Raptor and I have several ideas for fest entries. Some are going to be the format you see now. We give you genre - you make it happen. Nothing's stopping you from gathering footage yourself to matchmove. We tried to keep it open and allow nearly everything. Other ideas are based on workshop. Where you need to matchmove something. Or you need to do this or that.
Ideas for fests are tough. Raptor and I had a list of like twenty concepts. I ruled 3/4ths of them as "stupidly impossible to do".
A name adjustment is certainly an option now. I look forward to hearing what others have to say. And no worries about the criticism. We asked for it - we need it. This failed twice before.
-Matt
Gord.T
Still "Senior Member"
Appreciate the feedback everyone.
I'll be sitting down with Mattykins next week and we'll look at everyones
concerns and see if we can't get some of this straightend out.
For starters I guess we need to clarify the rules. There appears to have
been a lot of confusion in that regard. Possibly revert the name back to
VFXFest and maybe extend this fest given the above.
I'm also behind on my entry due to rendering another gig but should have time next week to get more work done on it.
Keep those crits coming and maybe we'll get this thing off the ground.
Thanks again.
I'll be sitting down with Mattykins next week and we'll look at everyones
concerns and see if we can't get some of this straightend out.
For starters I guess we need to clarify the rules. There appears to have
been a lot of confusion in that regard. Possibly revert the name back to
VFXFest and maybe extend this fest given the above.
I'm also behind on my entry due to rendering another gig but should have time next week to get more work done on it.
Keep those crits coming and maybe we'll get this thing off the ground.
Thanks again.
oneinfiniteloop
Veteran
I definitely would like to enter, but timelines for this kind of stuff can vary widely and you can obviously get mired down trying to perfect something. Ultimately, I think that's the problem, people get discouraged because they can't get exactly what's in their head out in the time allotted. I don't think more time is necessarily the cure for this, so I'll propose this:
Although I like the idea of having such an open format, I think that's where the problem may lie. An open slate will cause people to think and re-think everything they do. With a tighter set of rules, boundaries to work within, then people will be forced to get really creative and execute faster. For example, give an image, footage, sound, whatever, then set out rules as to what the final output should be. Maybe give time restrictions, etc to further tighten it up. That way there is one output and each user can focus on that one thing. You could also set it up in a tiered fashion to where 3D people have a route they can follow, compositors have a route they can follow, etc.
Just my two cents, I look at competitions like Photoshop/AE Tennis, those 15 minute competitions (forgot the name), the SIGGRAPH Fjord competition...they all had restrictions that helped refine the output. Either way, I'm hoping I can put something together for this...
Although I like the idea of having such an open format, I think that's where the problem may lie. An open slate will cause people to think and re-think everything they do. With a tighter set of rules, boundaries to work within, then people will be forced to get really creative and execute faster. For example, give an image, footage, sound, whatever, then set out rules as to what the final output should be. Maybe give time restrictions, etc to further tighten it up. That way there is one output and each user can focus on that one thing. You could also set it up in a tiered fashion to where 3D people have a route they can follow, compositors have a route they can follow, etc.
Just my two cents, I look at competitions like Photoshop/AE Tennis, those 15 minute competitions (forgot the name), the SIGGRAPH Fjord competition...they all had restrictions that helped refine the output. Either way, I'm hoping I can put something together for this...
Matt Grunau
Adobe Demigod
I think regardless of how many people enter, it will be a learning experience for others. There are plenty who don't feel their talents are up to those who will participate, and they will be content to observe. From that angle, it is still important.
TowerFan
Senior Member
"When I see and talk to people about CG they think Toy Story or Beowolf. Pure CG, no film. When you think in terms of VFX you think, The Matrix, Batman, Supernatural, etc. While VFX covers CG the reverse is not true."
I agree that the name of the fest may be misleading as to what the requirements are. Maybe change the name back to VFXFest and define what is eligible. I think the timing of 6 weeks or so is fine.
I hope people aren't intimidated by the participants and avoid entering. I'm just a hobbyist, mostly a modeler at this point, but I'm going to give it a go anyhow. If people look at my work and say "What a joke", so be it. I'll learn from constructive crits and others' WIPs. The whole point is to have fun while learning something new.
:beer:
I agree that the name of the fest may be misleading as to what the requirements are. Maybe change the name back to VFXFest and define what is eligible. I think the timing of 6 weeks or so is fine.
I hope people aren't intimidated by the participants and avoid entering. I'm just a hobbyist, mostly a modeler at this point, but I'm going to give it a go anyhow. If people look at my work and say "What a joke", so be it. I'll learn from constructive crits and others' WIPs. The whole point is to have fun while learning something new.
:beer:
oneinfiniteloop
Veteran
CG stands for "computer graphics", so anything "graphic" generated by a "computer" qualifies, IMO. Obviously the common connotation and denotation are different, but I think we should keep that in mind.
Jason Ramsey
Admin
Give it some time to grow and evolve...
later,
jason
later,
jason
Gord.T
Still "Senior Member"
I wanted to quickly (?) touch on a couple things until Mattykins and I get
together. We do put a lot of thought into our decisions so it'll be a few
days yet before we update with any changes.
We didn't include a time limit but capped the upload at 10MB compressed.
Because of the render times and work involved I would think most entries
would fall under the 10 second mark, but we wanted to leave room for others
that could do more. From a team for example.
We're trying to keep the restrictions to a minimum and not stifle anyone.
The most one could expect to squeeze into 10mb is around 1 minute would be
my guess, not that anyone is going to, but it's there if needed.
The Wips are representative of what those entrants are doing.
In the Offical Rules thread I answered a couple of questions that indicates
AE is allowed. So is compositing but I understand those rules were not
clear so we're looking at that.
What your proposing to do though is fine so if you still feel like
entering, please do. We may extend a week considering the confusion, if your concerned about time.
We are allowing stills as well. It does not have to be a video.
It also does not even have to be a visual effect per se. It can be an art still
or matte done in photoshop for example. Again, we need to calrify that
better.
As I'll mention further down we're also looking at ways to get the film guys with vfx needs involved with our guys in this fest.
Not at all. You're allowed to incorporate stock footage, stills and music.
You can also use stock models. Either existing ones you have, downloaded or
bought. The reasoning behind that is like you mentioned
expecting people to model thier entire scene, if they choose to do 3D,
would be too much. And after all, they are just props to construct a scene.
We didn't make that clear.
We will be doing something like that every now and then.
We already have one person willing to provide footage that was taken
specifically to be tracked, that is, a bit shakey.
I've also contacted another to provide some existing footage for this fest
for those who may want to use it, but I have not heard back.
But yes we will be doing those types of things periodically.
A full blown animation short would takes months if not a couple years imo.
However, with the 10mb cap in place as it is now, a one minute short is open if anyone wants to tackle it. Besides, animations are currently allowed in the dvxfests I believe.
However, we are trying to keep in tune with what's happening in the dvxfest area.
Lossfest was a bit of a tough one to parallel against.
We're also keeping our eyes open for ways to tie what's going on here into
the dvxfest. Details are still to be worked out.
Any suggestions are welcome.
True. That's is something I go through virtually everyday, and yes, being
consitently creative can be nerve wracking. There are up days and down days and 'how the hell am I going to do this' days.
But that's what we chose to do so there's no escaping it.
We will be shaking things up like that from time to time. One thing is some
of the workshops will limit entrants to those with some skills in that area
and leave others out. Maybe in that case they could team up.
Also we're trying something different and not following what other fests
are doing. We are trying to keep the creative door open to as many people
as possible. Most other fests are pretty specific to one area.
Whereas film and graphics cover a broader range, at least here they do.
And we would also like to include art for art's sake and not limit it to
visual effects per se.
Yes it is. I know some people may feel intimidated but it really comes down
to how comfortable a person is with putting an entry out to public scrutiny.
I know the dvxfest has the gammut from beginners and pros. I think most
people tend to attack it from the point of view of raising thier own bar
and getting feedback on how to improve.
Not an easy thing to do and getting bashed in the reviews while
uncomfortable mostly at first, I believe is invaluable.
Personally, participating in the dvxfest helped me to identify my strengths and weaknesses and has greatly contributed to why I'm still doing CG here at dvx today as opposed to say, writing and directing, haha. I had fun doing it too though. Hope to do another.
In a nutshell that was my thinking. I have a huge opinion on that subject
and how we went about creating this fest, but it would be a couple pages.
Right now I just wanted to go over some of more immediate misconceptions
until we can address the rules in more detail later in the week.
Oh yeah...
Yeah, well, you know me. Going off the handle again but I'm glad I
brought it up and for getting everyones feedback.
It will take us awhile to get sorted for sure.
together. We do put a lot of thought into our decisions so it'll be a few
days yet before we update with any changes.
We didn't include a time limit but capped the upload at 10MB compressed.
Because of the render times and work involved I would think most entries
would fall under the 10 second mark, but we wanted to leave room for others
that could do more. From a team for example.
We're trying to keep the restrictions to a minimum and not stifle anyone.
The most one could expect to squeeze into 10mb is around 1 minute would be
my guess, not that anyone is going to, but it's there if needed.
The Wips are representative of what those entrants are doing.
In the Offical Rules thread I answered a couple of questions that indicates
AE is allowed. So is compositing but I understand those rules were not
clear so we're looking at that.
What your proposing to do though is fine so if you still feel like
entering, please do. We may extend a week considering the confusion, if your concerned about time.
We are allowing stills as well. It does not have to be a video.
It also does not even have to be a visual effect per se. It can be an art still
or matte done in photoshop for example. Again, we need to calrify that
better.
As I'll mention further down we're also looking at ways to get the film guys with vfx needs involved with our guys in this fest.
Not at all. You're allowed to incorporate stock footage, stills and music.
You can also use stock models. Either existing ones you have, downloaded or
bought. The reasoning behind that is like you mentioned
expecting people to model thier entire scene, if they choose to do 3D,
would be too much. And after all, they are just props to construct a scene.
We didn't make that clear.
We will be doing something like that every now and then.
We already have one person willing to provide footage that was taken
specifically to be tracked, that is, a bit shakey.
I've also contacted another to provide some existing footage for this fest
for those who may want to use it, but I have not heard back.
But yes we will be doing those types of things periodically.
A full blown animation short would takes months if not a couple years imo.
However, with the 10mb cap in place as it is now, a one minute short is open if anyone wants to tackle it. Besides, animations are currently allowed in the dvxfests I believe.
However, we are trying to keep in tune with what's happening in the dvxfest area.
Lossfest was a bit of a tough one to parallel against.
We're also keeping our eyes open for ways to tie what's going on here into
the dvxfest. Details are still to be worked out.
Any suggestions are welcome.
True. That's is something I go through virtually everyday, and yes, being
consitently creative can be nerve wracking. There are up days and down days and 'how the hell am I going to do this' days.
But that's what we chose to do so there's no escaping it.
We will be shaking things up like that from time to time. One thing is some
of the workshops will limit entrants to those with some skills in that area
and leave others out. Maybe in that case they could team up.
Also we're trying something different and not following what other fests
are doing. We are trying to keep the creative door open to as many people
as possible. Most other fests are pretty specific to one area.
Whereas film and graphics cover a broader range, at least here they do.
And we would also like to include art for art's sake and not limit it to
visual effects per se.
Yes it is. I know some people may feel intimidated but it really comes down
to how comfortable a person is with putting an entry out to public scrutiny.
I know the dvxfest has the gammut from beginners and pros. I think most
people tend to attack it from the point of view of raising thier own bar
and getting feedback on how to improve.
Not an easy thing to do and getting bashed in the reviews while
uncomfortable mostly at first, I believe is invaluable.
Personally, participating in the dvxfest helped me to identify my strengths and weaknesses and has greatly contributed to why I'm still doing CG here at dvx today as opposed to say, writing and directing, haha. I had fun doing it too though. Hope to do another.
In a nutshell that was my thinking. I have a huge opinion on that subject
and how we went about creating this fest, but it would be a couple pages.
Right now I just wanted to go over some of more immediate misconceptions
until we can address the rules in more detail later in the week.
Oh yeah...
Yeah, well, you know me.
Going off the handle again but I'm glad I brought it up and for getting everyones feedback.
It will take us awhile to get sorted for sure.
Last edited:
Neal Buconjic
Well-known member
Nice, thoughtful post, Raptor.
Tom Marshall
Actor!!!!!!
So are you guys going to post, I guess, mock ups of what the final version will look like or no?