SCARLET / EPIC swiss army knife camera details announced

[puredrifting]

Perhaps it's just me, but go spend a little time over at RED User. To me, it seems like there are a lot of bored fifteen year old with a few working pros thrown in for good measure. Maybe it's just me, but all of the sycophantic rantings that "Jim is a god" and "RED is nuking all of the other cameras on the market" don't sound as if they are coming from working professionals.

Yes, the static over there is already deafening.

Dan

 

[hawaj]

...Internet is still young and big businesses adapt to new possibilities slowly. ...

Internet and young? He he where have you been all that time... its pretty old.

I think that biggest pain for Red is their really huge target group with avalanche of contradictory posts after each announcments. It must be quite streesfull to create somethig under that pressure of unexpected reactions, but instant feedback with different ideas and needs is very motivating too (and it's almost free )

 

[Denis Haineault]

Dan, you must be a masochist

I don't really bother with the RED forum anymore. Well maybe a quick lookup every now and then.

I will certainly check it out on Dec. 3 to see what it's about. Short of announcing locked specs or firm delivery dates (both?), the announcement will be of little value since "it's all subject to change".

 

[hawaj]

... Maybe it's just me, but all of the sycophantic rantings that "Jim is a god" and "RED is nuking all of the other cameras on the market" don't sound as if they are coming from working professionals.

Yes, the static over there is already deafening.

Dan

True, all that fanboism and naive people who are saying that film is now really dead etc. are annoying.
But its just nature of internet - freedom of speech for everybody

I just ignore them because I dont want to miss other very informative posts from pros who really know. Really thanks for them.

 

[Otis Grapsas]

How can film be dead? It still takes a lot of work to produce in digital sensors skin tones and blues that are as flattering and vibrant as those of film. It's not a matter of getting the color test cards correctly, a lot of the mystique is in the nonlinearity of film chemicals. I find it very strange when someone sees an image that screams DSLR and thinks it compares to film. It's a very different look.

 

[Noel Evans]

Meh, one of these scarlets had me interested. If they want to play this game Im not interested. If its the same on release Ill still probably get one, if it suits at that time as it does now. Until then, Sayonara.

 

[Nektonic]

Meh, one of these scarlets had me interested. If they want to play this game Im not interested. If its the same on release Ill still probably get one, if it suits at that time as it does now. Until then, Sayonara.

You said it Noel. While the Scarlet / Epic concepts look awesome, I can't plan for any future purchases if I don't know what the hell I'm planning for, when it is coming out, and (this is very important to me) how much is this thing going to cost. If it keeps changing, then I have to keep reconsidering if it will be affordable and useful to me and my work.

Its also annoying because when I think back to NAB 08, the original Scarlet was announced and it was stated to be approx. $3,000.00. Great. I can afford that. I can make better looking films now with the Scarlet. Then, wait now, were changing everything. Okay, I can wait little longer and hopefully it will be more finalized when they re-announce it. They do. It is even better on many levels, although probably a bit more expensive. Arrrgggghhhh. I guess I'll have to save some more pennies is all. I can live with that. Now, hey guys guess what, lets re-re-announce the specs. Okay, well I can wait a few days. It is not the fact that I have to wait until after Thanksgiving Day weekend, but what happens in 6 months? Will they re-re-re-announce it? Very frustrating.

 

[brianluce]

Perhaps it's just me, but go spend a little time over at RED User. To me, it seems like there are a lot of bored fifteen year old with a few working pros thrown in for good measure. Maybe it's just me, but all of the sycophantic rantings that "Jim is a god" and "RED is nuking all of the other cameras on the market" don't sound as if they are coming from working professionals.

Yes, the static over there is already deafening.

Dan

I've gone there looking to learn about the camera and so we can make an informed purchase. We were two shakes and a lamb's tail away from buying one, but, as you say, there's so much noise and worship over there, it's difficult to gather facts.

 

[Mattykins]

Brian,

I've given up trying to get any thing real from the Red forum. The best part is, it seems almost everyone there doesn't own a Red and will never own a Red. Or has never shot with one. They are all fans.

And I've given up on scarlet. Loved the idea when we saw it first. I was thinking about maybe looking into it. But I need to get the real facts of it first. Worthless to even think ahead if the product rendition has again went into Vaporware stages.

 

[acoelho1]

Red is 'anti-establishment' - its sooo revolutionary, its marketing is almost like a burger promo at hard rock cafe 'join the revolution hehe.' Then we're smacked with incredible specs and dates with little credibilty.

There must and will be a reason Sony and Panny don't just go - oops our bad, and drop various and similarly priced Scarlet cams.

Innovation has proven time and time again that an entrepeneur (typo im sure) can come along and kick ass... but this camera market is well developed... there not stupid, and so i wonder how credible Red's plans are.

I will say this, that of course their tailoring for Cinematographers, real productions etc, but their fan boy marketing obviously indicates,

'a target market of young noobie gimps with loads of disposable income'

I mean look at the kid ads, and tell me you don't get a jist of that vibe?

Oh and...
Just to add, its interesting the contrast that emerges with the Ikonoscope cam, or even Otis' product, in how a 'dignified marketing campaign' or impression, can draw such heightened sceptism or scrutiny of Reds ads.
My comments are just about the marketing btw

Who cares about the marketing? The end product is what counts and the Red One is a testament of what Red Digital Cinema can deliver. No other company has been as open to its customers as Red and I dont think its a bad thing. I think part of the ever evolving Scarlet is that the market is changing and they actually are listening to what we want. Wow.. a noble idea. I am just curious, what is it about Red's marketing that has gotten you so bent out of shape. Is it the announcements (maybe annoying) but nothing that should create this hostility. Show me a company that will give you full credit on a camera when you upgrade. Will Sony give you full credit for your EX1 when you purchase EX3... I think your diatribe should be directed at someone else.

 

[Rubbersquare]

Who cares about the marketing?

it's not so much the "marketing" as the promise of something cool.

when i was a kid, my friend had a book that had all these cool magic things you could buy, like invisibility potions and levitation rays (i don't remember the specifics) and we all spent an entire summer day talking about all the cool things we could do with all the cool stuff in that book. then, finally, we were ready to buy it, no matter the cost, no matter how many month's of allowances, we wanted that stuff. and it turned out the payment was some weird ritual that involved bat fat and other weird stuff. we were so pissed and let down that we threw the book in the trash. that's what red reminds me of with this promise of cool stuff that they keep changing and no one can buy. *I* can make renders and promises. anyone can.

yes, they have made the red one. yes, some people like it, some people don't. it's far from perfect, but not bad. i just feel like i did when i was seven and someone promises all this cool stuff, only to find out it was all just pretend.

i told my DP friend that i'd rather shoot super 16 than red and he said "a lot less cables." that seems to be what i hear a lot. maybe red footage looks good, but it seems to be a ***** to work with. heck, i'd rather go back and shoot on the f900 again. to my critical eye, it was "good enough" and was easy as pie to work with.

 

[aalleexx]

I personally think everyone should stop worring about pixels and start or keep improving your craft, I see so many people concentrate and make sure they get the highest resulution posible but the final product sucks, the best camera in the world is not gonna change the fact that you cant shoot, a good dp or a good director can make any medium shine if he or she is good
people get so cought up with the latest gadgets that they forget and do not pay atention to what's really important

 

[Otis Grapsas]

Show me a company that will give you full credit on a camera when you upgrade. Will Sony give you full credit for your EX1 when you purchase EX3...

It would appear that you wouldn't be wasting any money, but it would also prove the EX1 and EX3 packages were sold on an extremely high margin. The company has lost a lot of money on the upgrade, or they had the real margin of EX1 hidden in overpriced accessories that were not returned.

 

[acoelho1]

it's not so much the "marketing" as the promise of something cool..

The Red One was promised and delivered.

yes, they have made the red one. yes, some people like it, some people don't. it's far from perfect, but not bad. i just feel like i did when i was seven and someone promises all this cool stuff, only to find out it was all just pretend.

i told my DP friend that i'd rather shoot super 16 than red and he said "a lot less cables." that seems to be what i hear a lot. maybe red footage looks good, but it seems to be a ***** to work with. heck, i'd rather go back and shoot on the f900 again. to my critical eye, it was "good enough" and was easy as pie to work with.

Some very talented DP's and directors have worked with it and swear by it. It has a beautiful image, which is different from film but comparable. The Scarlet and Epic has always been promised for next year so I'm not sure where all the skeptism comes from. I judge a company by their past and the Red One has been an overwhelming success (even with its issues) and I fully expect Red to deliver on Scarlet and Epic and guess what, not everyone will buy it. No camera is everything to everyone. Also, don't forget that Red is new at this and things are improving...i.e. workflow.

 

[Mattykins]

Well actually, CineAlta (by SONY) does have a program with the F23's. The EX cameras aren't designed for digital cinema. The high end cinealta line is indeed focused for professionals. The people at BandPro told me of the F23 to F35 Tradein or substantial savings on the F35 if you purchased a 23 to join.

RED isn't the first company to do trade-ins. I see where you are coming from acoelho1, but you are forgetting the other cameras out there in the world.

Plus, what most of us are saying is that we can't plan for a camera that we don't even know correct specs on. Many people are waiting for the Scarlet - and none of us know the release date or the locked specs. That is why many of us aren't even looking at the camera anymore until the specs are locked and we have a price to go on.

 

[aalleexx]

acoelho1

no one here is saying that the red one does not give you a pretty image, we know that, I have shot with it a few times, and I love the images, hate the workflow, but that is a different story, please tell me and give me a good reason why its a good idea to annouce products that will constantly change and are 2 years away? how do they consumers (us) benefit from this whole red "changing things everyday" sorta deal?

 

[Dvader]

acoelho1

no one here is saying that the red one does not give you a pretty image, we know that, I have shot with it a few times, and I love the images, hate the workflow, but that is a different story, please tell me and give me a good reason why its a good idea to annouce products that will constantly change and are 2 years away? how do they consumers (us) benefit from this whole red "changing things everyday" sorta deal?

Because it gives you a choice! You can choose whether or not you want to think about Scarlet or Epic purchases, plan to buy one, follow the updates and give your own feedback. Or you can choose to simply sit back and wait till the day RED releases a new camera, check it out then for the first time and decide if you need/want it at that moment.

A choice is a great thing, and even though you don't want the first option I don't understand why you want to harshly judge a new way of making cameras. I would trust Jim Jannard's business decisions over anyone else on this forum because of his track record alone, not to mention the RED ONE was called vapor and people moaned all day about that camera too, and now look. You can buy one for a very low price versus the competition, we know how great the images are, and in my opinion if you learn about the camera and the workflow there really is no problem.

And as they say, bad press is better than no press. Everyone is talking about their new cameras, whether they think its vapor or not, people are aware and when the cameras do ship, everyone will tune in to check them out.

 

[acoelho1]

Who says its 2 years away. Do you work for Red....cause that is not what their saying. I am not trying to be a Red defender here. All I really care about is when the product is finished and will it give me the features I am looking for that the competition is not offering. This is not really an argument to be won or lost. When Scarlet and Epic are out, they will be judge by us like any other camera maker. But I do applaud Red for pushing the technology to new heights and their open dialogue with their customers is unprecedented. Till then its a waiting game but no matter what happens, we in the business will benefit from Red's contributions.

 

[adkimery]

The end product is what counts and the Red One is a testament of what Red Digital Cinema can deliver.

You mean a camera delayed repeatedly and finally released as a partially functioning Beta that took about a year to get completely on track? :laugh: Yeah, the camera got there... eventually. IMO Red One was released prematurely to snub the people who said the production schedule for the camera was unrealistically short. If Sony or Panasonic 'pulled a Red' they'd pretty much be tarred and feathered.

Red is what Red is. They aren't god's gift to filmmaking and they aren't snake oil salesmen either. They are doing things differently, in a lot of ways, and sometimes different works out and sometimes it doesn't. Live by the sword, die by the sword.


-A

 

[bronxjragon]

when i was a kid, my friend had a book that had all these cool magic things you could buy, like invisibility potions and levitation rays (i don't remember the specifics) and we all spent an entire summer day talking about all the cool things we could do with all the cool stuff in that book. then, finally, we were ready to buy it, no matter the cost, no matter how many month's of allowances, we wanted that stuff. and it turned out the payment was some weird ritual that involved bat fat and other weird stuff. we were so pissed and let down that we threw the book in the trash.

ha book sounds awesome