SCARLET / EPIC swiss army knife camera details announced

Duly noted, thanks for the clarification. (Huh. I guess it -was- the Newcastle talking.)

Now I'm curious though... Does the introduction of the 617 really change anything?

The 617 sensor module is ~3.3:1, wider even than Cinerama. With a nonstandard format and a DOF that shallow, would you expect it to be adopted by feature filmmakers?

Paul

Rippie said:
It has absolutely nothing to do with not having the gear.
I own the best gear you can buy period.
Its called making a huge sacrifice moving from a well placed boom mic (schoepsmk41/ sanken cs-3's..etc)
to a wire (Lectro 411's, sanken cos11's, b6's) that is buried under clothing.

Its like taking vasoline and smearing it on your lens. Yes you can still see the picture, but is it nearly as good?
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As I mentioned earlier, if you were limited to let's say. 30fps or under at 5k for full frame scarlet. My business would be going elsewhere. I would rather rock and hpx170 and an sgpro.

It seems that RED cheaped out a little but if that is the case. In order to keep their original claims alive of rendering obsolences obsolete they are limiting scarlet to not be able to out perform the RED ONE??? Why not make scarlet as good as it can be and offer RED ONE owners trade in for a Scarlet body and refund some coin?? I know that isn't the best business model, but if you want to make obsolesence obsolete, it's the only way.

Does anyone know yet?
 
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puredrifting said:
Kholi:

You didn't tell me that you were working on your stand up act ;-)

This from the man who buys new cameras faster than I buy groceries, pretty much once every two weeks? You are funny man!

Dan
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=P That's an easy one: Because the cameras I buy still lack lack lack lack lack.

Scarlet looks light weight and has features that we all want. So why would I bother with another camera if that's close enough to the pinnacle? I can get any codec I want out of it through the HD-SDI port, if I needed to get DVCproHD then I rent a P2 Deck.

There would really be no reason to go further than that. Would YOU sit back with little Panasonic cameras instead of a Scarlet when you can roll the raw footage through FCP and get ProRes? An all around better Codec?
 
Barry_Green said:
Er, except that those "whiners" spent $30,000 to $60,000 with Red based on the promise that a Red One "renders obsolescence obsolete." As far as I know, nobody's ever made a promise like that before, yet here they are offering what looks like a far more upgradeable system, rendering my "obsolescence-proof" Red obsolete... so if I still had my Red One and I saw a Scarlet claiming better performance for 1/3 the price, I think I might "whine" too, based on the promises that were made. And being told that I had full upgrade value to an Epic is not all that much consolation since that'd mean a minimum of $11,000 or so in additional expense. I think Red is going to have to tread carefully here.

With that said, yes technology always moves forward and there will always be something new. I think every other buyer of every other product knows that, there isn't any sort of promise (implied or otherwise) that current buyers will forever remain current. But Red did promise otherwise, so we'll have to see how they intend to deliver on those promises.
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I understand the pain of buyer's remorse because I've had my share, too. I should also add that I bought and sold a Red One, so I'm not feeling that pain right now. I guess I didn't buy into the Red hype to the same extent that some people did. When they said they would render obsolescence obsolete, my understanding was that they would allow upgrades to the sensor. And they are honoring that. But Red is an innovative company, and it's only a matter of time before they come out with something new.

Red One owners have had some time to make money from their investment. Even when Scarlet and Epic come out, 4k will not suddenly go out of style, so those owners can continue to make money from their investment (Just like HD didn't suddenly replace SD). Just because they don't have the latest technology doesn't mean their camera is obsolete. And since display technology hasn't quite caught up yet, most Red owners (including Scarlet and Epic owners) will probably deliver their work in 2k or smaller sizes for some time to come.

And finally, just because Red said that they would render obsolescence obsolete, it doesn't mean that they would do it for free. Nor should owners expect this. I think Red has been more than generous with their upgrades so far: free body replacements for #1-100, free sound card replacements, free flash reader upgrades, continuous firmware upgrades, etc. If Red One owners want to upgrade their sensors, they can do so for a fee. If they want to "upgrade" the body to Scarlet, then they can buy the body for 12% off. Most of the original $30k-$60k investment went into accessories, such as lenses, viewfinders, recording media, etc., which are not "obsolete" and they can still continue to use them.

Yes, it can be painful when the next generation of products come out. But let's face it - it happens with every company, and Red is actually treating its customers much better than any other tech company does.
 
Personally I think that a company saying it "renders obsolescence obsolete" in a digital based technological product is blowing smoke at best, setting itself up for possible liability issues at worse. But you'd think people buying $17,000 base cameras would be savvy enough to understand this. Who knows what will be inside cameras 5 years from now, or 10 years, or 20 years. There is no limit with "obsolescence obsolete". I guess you could keep 'ugrading' your 8-track tape player or your first Apple computer running DOS with a 12" monitor, but physical equipment limitations come into play even if you could continually upgrade your vintage Apple 1 computer.

With RED ONE they could keep allowing upgrades within the confines of the technology it was built upon, but certainly other technological leaps will be made that render the original RED ONE non-state-of-the-art, even with upgrades. This will undoubtedly happen to Scarlet and Epic as well, no matter how modular they are.

I plan on doing very well with my EX1 and related editing gear, I wouldn't have spent all this $$ if I didn't think so. Most of my time has been spent practicing with it and learning this new world of video. I understand my technological window is limited and all this gear that cost me $30+ grand will be worth a few hunnerd bucks in a few years. If someone wants to recreationally play around with video you can get great results with a Canon HV30 or a Sony HC9 and wow your friends and make fun little flicks and capture your family vacations in full HD. If someone is plunking down money for a RED ONE they either better be rich and realize they have expensive hobbies, or use it as a tool to make money, because the digital gear itself is the worst return on money you can make (other than investing in a 401k, ha!).

It won't be too long from now when these threads are reviewed in the archives and we'll be snickering at all this talk about 1/3" CCDs and 1/2" CMOS and how the RED ONE was ground breaking, ooOOOOoooo, while our cell phones record 3K.
 
Good points. I remember how I got into film/video... playing with Super 8 cameras. I could not have told you what their specs were back then, only that they looked 'special'. Now I'm feeling hard done by if I can get a 3K system for my feature soon enough. We've all turned into tech-addicts, needing our fix of the new specs.

It also reminds me of people driving around the city in 600-horsepower Ferraris, never getting more than 20% out of them. Is any of this about function or are we getting sucked into this euphoria about technical capabilities that really don't matter for 95% of us?
 
IMHO, unless you are definitely taking your project to the big screen, which almost all delusional indie filmmakers think that they are going to do and only about 1% actually are, than I feel 5k and 6k are massively overkill for most needs. There is the dowward interpolation of shooting through a Bayer filter that effectively reduces pixel resolution but even with that in place, unless you are going for a film out or high end digital projection to the big screen, still overkill.

It's not that different of a scenario than we have experienced with DSLRs. I am very happy that my D300 Nikon only has the 12.3 MP sensor, I don't like having a larger sensor, it makes the data and files too large to effectively manage and archive at times and you are needlessly reducing the size of the pixels to use a larger MP sensor of the same size. More noise, less dynamic range, etc. I do realize that the RED sensors are not stuffing more MPs onto the same size chips, they are physically larger sensors, but think of the media run times and storage requirements. Definitely created for filmmakers and not video users who tape four hour interviews and BTS with 8 hours a day of footage.

Things are changing but today, the majority of non-broadcast stuff I deliver is still on SD DVD although all of the movie studio projects I deliver are on HDCAM SR. Huge sensors and file sizes give you a lot of flexibility but in a way, can also be a PITA.

Dan
 
I totally agree with puredrifting because I work for TV and its 16:9 now....no HD no 720p. Still the scarlet would give me a nicer shallower depth of field like the big 2/3 cams and the FCP workflow is much smoother than XDCAM. So til scarlet really is available I go with the HVX and wait .....For my work cinematic depth of field is not really required, I dont make movies I make documentaries, but I wouldnt mind having the possibilities to deliver gorgeous totals of the locations. ;-)
The file size is not such an issue IMO, digital storage is one of the last realms where development continues and prices drop. By the time these beasts are available a 4TB raid might cost half of what it costs today.
 
Jack Daniel Stanley said:
But comparible to 16mm, and much more manageable in resolutsions where focus is so criticle - where most people with 35mm adpators should be shooting anyway, a liitle stopped down and not so wide open all the time.

But to get rid of the cumbersome adaptors and have 3k with an remote servo controlled lens in a comparible price range. Sheesh.
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i could not agree more. every now and then i want or have to go wide open on 35 due to light, but it would be nice to be able to shoot lower light in the first place and therefore not have to go full open. so im hoping that the fixed lense red comes with a monitoring,power,audio and recording solution as a package, because it would be nice if they offered "something" that came all peiced together and ready to go for people that just want a great 2/3 inch red camera system with simple fixed zoom lense to just order and start shooting with when they get it. ..leave all the guessing an mix matching out of it for those who just want a simpler or more affordable solution. ..under 7k? you and me will both have our fingers crossed man :)
 
It's incredibly interesting that people were saying "once Scarlet comes out, 35mm Adapters are dead!" And here, there are several people already planning to rock out with a 35mm Adapter and the 2/3" Sensor.

It makes sense because of the price. Thinking about the very VERY nice image the EX1 + Ultimate combo produces, I can only imagine that the 2/3" Scarlet and Ultimate (or Extreme, or Blade) will produce something just as incredible. Not only that, with a different "texture". So we'll have lots of different flavors of Scarlet just like we have a lot of different flavors of HVX200/HPX/EX1 adapter footage. I'm happy that adapter manufacturers will still have a solid stake in this niche even after Scarlet is released. Although I'll be headed straight for an S35 body, I still will look forward to 35mm Adapter + Scarlet examples.
 
My God, I hope that the fixed 2/3 Scarlet is substantially under 7k. The interview that was posted a page or so back said this:

fxg:At NAB the 3K resolution for $3K stuck with a lot of people, are we still in that zone?

RED:I think we are still in that zone, it is just a little hard to predict, The lens itself is very complex, we are not cutting corners on that fixed lens Scarlet. It is going to right, it is going to be at the right price and it is going to be hyper competitive, other cameras in that zone 2/3" sensors are normally $30,000 . It is a little early, but have a little faith, we have people's best interest at heart and it won't be too far off the $2500 version.

link:
http://www.fxguide.com/article507.html

If you look at the body of the fixed lens Scarlet, it looks longer and bulkier than the $2,500 one and all the others. I'm just guessing but it would seem that the fixed lens model will have some more hardware built into it than just the "brain" and lens. I think that it is too much of a jump in price if they initially promised 3K for $3,000 and then it goes up near $7,000 for the fixed lens model. If that happens they risk pissing off too many of the people that they got amped up to buy a Scarlet when the NAB 08 announcement hit, and they also leave a spot wide open for Canon, Sony, Panasonic, and Nikon to introduce an option with 35mm DOF and interchangeable lens mount for substantially less and with a more manageable 1080p solid state-based recording format. Doesn't mean all this will happen this way but to me that's what makes sense so far.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining. Just trying to make sense of things. I would really like to buy a Scarlet when I can afford to, and will be saving for one during the next year. What RED has announced is great and will hopefully give the competition the motivation to innovate and compete with the same type of forward thinking gusto that RED has been since the Red One. Now the hard part, waiting.
 
Nektonic said:
If you look at the body of the fixed lens Scarlet, it looks longer and bulkier than the $2,500 one and all the others. I'm just guessing but it would seem that the fixed lens model will have some more hardware built into it than just the "brain" and lens. I think that it is too much of a jump in price if they initially promised 3K for $3,000 and then it goes up near $7,000 for the fixed lens model.
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I don't think RED ever promised 3k for $3k let alone a 'shoot ready' 3K camera for $3k. I always speculated that Scarlet 1.0 would be shoot ready starting around $6k. It's not a bargain basement price, but it's middle of the road for a prosumer camera.


-A
 
Were you in this industry in April of this year? This was the biggest buzz at NAB '08. If you want to get really accurate, RED was quoted as saying that it would be "3k for less than $3k"
Yes, that was the actual way that Scarlet was introduced at NAB '08

"The RED Scarlet model expected to ship in early 2009 will retail for less then $3000 and will have a 100 frames per second 2/3 capable chip in it."

http://provideocoalition.com/index.php/mcurtis/story/red_scarlet_3k_for_3kat_up_to_120fps/
http://www.istockphoto.com/forum_messages.php?threadid=68175
http://www.callboxlive.com/resources/?p=60
http://forums.applenova.com/showthread.php?p=598609
http://www.engadget.com/2008/07/10/red-delivers-new-rendering-of-scarlet-3k-camera/
http://prototypen.com/blog/falk/archive/commercial-stuff/productreviews/red-scarlet-3k.html
http://indie2zero.com/2008/04/15/re...era-scarlet-plus-trumps-blu-ray-with-red-ray/
http://www.slashgear.com/red-release-3k-scarlet-handheld-camera-render-1012485/
http://extreeeme.org/digitalredvolution/
http://www.indie4k.com/archives/85
http://technorati.com/videos/youtube.com/watch?v=QkoHTjx8siM

If I got this wrong then so did the rest of the entire video/film industry. If you Google RED Scarlet 3k for $3k, almost 900 sites/postings show up.

Dan
 
I'm with Dan and Matt McGee. If someone told you that they would give you 3,000 if you shot their kids birthday party but didn't PROMISE you that, so they didn't pay you... what would you do?

Enough of that silly arguement:
1226800173.jpg


I'm sure Jack will put this at the front of the thread, but til then.
 
puredrifting said:
If I got this wrong then so did the rest of the entire video/film industry. If you Google RED Scarlet 3k for $3k, almost 900 sites/postings show up.

Dan
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Where I'm coming from is that w/the history of Red One why would anyone expect price, features, and release date to *not* be in flux? Just going from memory Scarlet initially started out as a 'professional pocket camera', then morphed into 'Scarlet v.1' w/the first semi-accurate renders provided by Jim, then it morphed again into the announcement yesterday and I'm sure things will change again before the camera hits the streets. A big downside to Red being so open in its development cycle is that people latch onto 'first draft' ideas even though a ton of things will change between the time Jim scribbles down the idea on a napkin and there is a shipping product. Hell, even now all the Red firmware upgrades provide functionality that wasn't originally planed for the Red One. If people heard what Red said and assumed they'd get a 3k camera for $3k ready to shoot out of the box, well, they were just being incredibly optimistic IMO.

I think Steve Jobs might have met his match when it comes to reality distortion fields.:tongue:


-A
 
adkimery said:
If people heard what Red said and assumed they'd get a 3k camera for $3k ready to shoot out of the box, well, they were just being incredibly optimistic IMO.
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Maybe some of us were being overly optimistic, but based on what they announced at the last NAB, for $3,000 it seemed that for the most part you would get about everything you would need besides some batteries, a mic, a tripod, and recording media (built-in battery bay, XLR, HDMI out, a built-in LCD, a couple of slots to insert your CF cards). It certainly did not appear that one would have to spend a minimum of $6,000 to start shooting with a Scarlet. And I don't think that the majority of us on here think that you don't need to spend a little extra to shoot with a new camera. Even a DVX requires a couple extra batteries and plenty of tapes if you are seriously attempting to produce something. Of course many people planned on getting extra accessories for the Scarlet.

If the price goes up a bit then so be it. If they require you to now buy all the necessities like a power module and a recording module plus a sound module and then an external LCD then I could see it getting up towards $6,000 which is double the originally announced price. I guess that they could have announced it as 3K for 5k which would have still been a good deal for what they were originally going to offer. That would have given them some wiggle room. Then if it came in for less once they release date grew closer, no one would have complained.
 
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