Projection Set-up Questions for Indie Shot on HVX200

M

mtd2007

Active member
Hey Everyone,

I'm premiering my featurette next Saturday at an indie theatre, and I'm feeling a little panicky about my preparations and set-up for the screening. The theatre owner is very nice but doesn't know a whole lot about the technical side of his set-up (I'm not sure I know much more) and I went in today for a test and it didn't go so well. He's running an Optima DLP projector hooked up to a Sony DVD player (more specs below).

I think I have a few ideas as to why my footage didn't look right and plan to spend the next few days researching and experimenting before I go back for another test of Friday, but I thought it might be smart to drop a note to see if anyone had any ideas on what I'm doing wrong or should do differently.

Project is shot in 720p/24p and has played very much to my satifaction on an SD-DVD created by exporting with the DVD Best 90 min 16:9 setting in Compressor.

Here's the set-up at the theatre:



  • The projector is 45 ft away from the screen

  • The screen is 18 ft by 12 ft

  • The devices are hooked up via an S-Video cable
I should add that I went in for my test after another filmmaker whose disc seemed to be showing something shot in HD video. It played very well with this same exact set-up.

Here are the issues that I noticed after beginning playback (my menu looked pretty much the way it was supposed to):

  • An overall fuzziness to the picture that seemed separate from the focus settings on the projector (menu showed in good focus, and I wasn't able to correct focus by adjusting anything).

  • Everything originally played very dark, which we were able to correct mostly by increasing the brightness, and very red, which we similarly addressed by bringing the reds down in the color settings for the projector (although the reds on my menu seemed mostly okay)
The DVD was the same one mentioned above (made in DVD Studio Pro with an MPEG-2 compressed with Compressor using the DVD Best 90 min 16:9 setting).

The first thing I am wondering is if I need to create a new DVD with better, more specific settings. My project is a 45 min featurette.

Other questions:

  • I color corrected within FCP using my Cinema Display as a reference monitor (no other choice, out of budget and time and I am personally, literally poor). If my color decisions (and I monitored everything that I did on my scopes) look safe on that display and on my test DVD played on several different setups...can I assume that they aren't the reason why my footage looks dark and red on the projector? Or should I be making smaller, less-pronounced adjustments because of the sensivitiy of the projector? I did bring my whites slightly towards red and yellow on many sequences...but I didn't go crazy with them. Also darkened some shots (or left some shots dark in spots if they were meant to be that way) but I didn't crush any blacks and watched my waveform monitor.

  • Will much of this be solved with a higher quality DVD encode? Maybe using the settings suggested here by Will Clegg (which I will try...as soon as I can afford to let my computer run for a day during compression)?

  • Or should I be thinking about exporting a Quicktime Movie at a very high quality (settings suggestions welcome) for running through my MacBook Pro into the DVI input on the projector?
That last option has me thinking becuase while I was led to believe that the projector wasn't an HD projector, the specs seem to suggest that it's capable of HD resolution...even if the DVD player isn't...

Many thanks to anyone who has even read this far. If it helps, you can view a sample of how things are supposed to look by watching the teaser trailer on our web site: http://www.sexandjustice.com.

I'd be very grateful for any advice. My first step after posting this is going to be to crack open the manuals for the projector and DVD player and start taking notes.

And I'm really wondering if that Quicktime file on the Macbook Pro is the way to go. We're anticipating a decent crowd and we're marketing like crazy and while I'm excited I really want to be sure that people are going to be able to view our little indie feauturette at the highest quality.
 
I would go for connecting a laptop via DVI to the projector. Make a good quality Quicktime video in 720 lines/24p format and play it fullscreen. Make sure the laptop isn't stuttering during playback, perhaps trigger the Quicktime file from a second harddisk or so. Do some tests, you'll work this out.
It's then all becoming a matter of connecting the laptop to the beamer and choosing the right resolution settings on both ends. Try both XGA and SXGA, see what looks the best. Don't put all the efforts on the dvd path, you'll won't get much better results by changing some render setting.

I read in the spec's of the projector that 45 feet distance is above it's spec's, it goes to 40 feet so far I understand American sizes (I'm European). So not much headroom for a bright and shiny projection. 2500 ansilumen isn't that high. I've recently worked with a 4000 ansilumen widescreen beamer, connected via HDMI to a Pioneer dvd-player. That worked very nice for a short film projection in a room (on a distance of about 15 meters or so).
 
Thanks for the reply.

I noticed the same exact thing regarding the distance in the specs. Luckily, the projector is actually portable (he sets it on a low table in a middle row of the theatre, and then blocks off the seats in front of it) so I'm going to ask if it would be possible to move it up a few feet to help optimize things from that perspective.

And the more I read (both on the web and in the manuals), the more I'm thinking I should be looking at the QT file. I also came out of today's tests feeling like something may have been going on with the DVD player in terms of zooming or aspect ratio - whether that had something to do with the player or my encode - and I'm just not sure why I'd bother if I can get a better picture playing through my laptop.

You hit exactly on my only concern. Just paranoid that I'll experience stutters during playback...but if I can't afford another quality Firewire drive I may just clean up my computer's hard disk, repair permissions and etc., and then test the file off of that setup. Probably should be okay if things are relatively clean on my drive and if it's a good working file.

Anyone more suggestions, or responses to what's been brought up so far, is still greatly appreciated. This project has made me more paranoid than I've ever been in my life. Guess that comes partially with the territory!
 
If you must use a DVD player going to the projector, why aren't you using HDMI? Is it an older DVD player without that connection? If so, the least you can do is hook up via component. That's the highest quality connection you can have in the analog world. S-Video is ancient, it can't even transmit progressive images! Component does progressive and has better color, contrast, and brightness.

But yeah, as mentioned, bypassing DVD all together and going directly off a Quicktime movie would be best. Make sure you use "Export -> Quicktime Movie", not "Quicktime Conversion". That way you'll have a first generation HD master, the same one FCP works with. You won't have to worry about compression settings, because FCP isn't compressing anything. You'll have the original, untouched 720p image right up on the screen.
 
Thanks Matt.

I don't think the DVD player has HDMI. And thanks for the note re: the use of Export -> QT Movie vs. Conversion. I have exported a QT movie which looks good and which I obtained using that process and I'm going to test it out tomorrow at the theatre.

Thanks again guys. Hopefully I'll be able to report in tomorrow afternoon with good results.
 
So I just got back from sitting in a cold dark theatre for three hours...where I met with mixed results.

The Quicktime file played off my MB Pro solved all resolution issues. But after many many attempts at finding the right settings for the projector and the computer, I'm not really satisfied with the color quality or contrast of the images. Maybe this is what Peter was talking about above, in terms of the no. of lumens seeming low?

I have a feeling that I'm dealing with a less-than-ideal projector...because the images that I'm getting just don't show close to the amount of depth, texture, and brightness that I'm getting on even my SD DVD played on a home TV.

Another look around at some reviews for the Optoma EP739 seem to suggest that it performs passably for video...but I need more than passable.

We're looking at anywhere from 400-800 people so despite my poverty I think I'm going to have to look into an alternate arrangement for projection. Already put a call in to a rental company that specializes in projectors.

Once again...any suggestions are welcome...
 
For a venue with 400-800 people you'll need a bigger projector. The one I used was for a room filled with about 100 people. Go for a rental machine, ask the rental company for a good advice depending on the size of the room and the place where you want to put the projector in the room. If they supply a projector with an HDMI input, go for that and rent also (or borrow from a friend) a dvd-player with an HDMI output - don't forget the HDMI cable.

About the colors/contrast of the video. Color correction and contrast-tweaking can be a tricky matter. But if it looks good on a normal tv set, it should be okay for projection with a good beamer.

Checkout inside the beamer if it plays anamorphic widescreen video als 16:9 and not as 4:3 with letteboxing (our beamer was specialized for 16:9 projection, not all beamers are). And there are all kinds of settings for contrast, brightness, color temp, saturation, etc. Play your film from dvd or the Macbook and see if you are able to tweak the image towards your taste.
 
Thanks Peter.

A local rental house was kind enough to hear me out on my problems ten minutes before they closed for the week, and I actually got on the phone with their "video guy" in the projection department.

He said something similar about the projector not being sufficient for either the distance or the screen size...they're going to call me on Monday to confirm that they have a 4500 lumen video projector available that I can pick up on Friday for testing. Down to the wire as usual!

Would I still be correct in assuming, though, that the QT file off my MacBook (with an uncompressed file) is still preferable to a DVD? Or should I just wait the many many hours it would probably take my machine to recompress a new DVD file with higher quality settings (such as the one I referenced above from another thread)?

These are the times when I favor standardization.
 
If I was in your situation, I would go for a standard solution (a proper rendered dvd, played from a dvd-player with a HDMI cable or component cables) and a backup plan (playing a Quicktime file from the laptop, connected to the beamer via DVI if possible or otherwise VGA).

I'm not sure what you're meaning with an uncompressed file, true uncompressed video is too heavy to playback from a laptop I think. So I think you mean a video version that has the same format as the source material in which it was edited.

A better MPEG2 quality makes the image on the screen smoother/cleaner, but won't really change the color projection. This is all about color correction in the editing. Are you sure you've done the best of checking upon the brightness, color temperature, desaturation, contrast, etc. Most video camera's don't look really good out of the box. With my DVX100 (25p footage) I always add contrast, a bit of extra brightness and sometimes tweak the colors. You could consider this path, but don't go experimental. Stay on the safe side, and check the footage on different tv's and computers after rendering to MPEG2/DVD.

With the Quiktime file playback from the laptop, make sure the compression is not too harsh so playback isn't heavy leaning on the processor. A 720p/H264 quicktime file would suit the goals I think. It's all about resolution matching between beamer and playback device. And the best connection both ends will permit.
 
One word as far as projectors - Barco

Nothing else comes close. Unless you have access to a TI 4k or something exotic. But for theatrical SD projection, Barcos have a ton of lumens, clear and sharp. Just realize that no matter how good the projector, you will always notice a lot of detail missing, it's the nature of projection.

Dan
 
You know what I hate?

When you spend twenty minutes on a lengthy reply to some very good and kind advice...before then accidentally hitting a key that backs up your browser window, thus erasing everything you've written.

I've lost track of the amount of times that I've smacked myself in the head since beginning post-production on this film with nothing but me and my MacBook...
 
Okay...so what I was going to say yesterday...

Thanks for the additional insights.

It's completely possible (probable) that I'm using the wrong terminology in terms of compression and etc., but what I did to create the new file: File->Export->QT Movie->Current Settings.

That resulted in an almost 10 GB file with a resolution of 1280 x 720 using the DVCPRO HD 720p60 codec (hmm...maybe that's where the compression comes in) for my 42+ min 720p timeline (two channels of audio).

As far as my color decisions...I don't know...I've been more than satisfied with how they've shown up so far in testing on my DVD. I've played the disc through five and a half combinations:

1. Off an average Panasonic DVD player hooked up to a standard projection TV set
2. Off a portable DVD player hooked up to an older standard projection TV set
3. Off a Playstation 3 hooked up to a HDTV.
4. Off my computer using the Mac's DVD Player utility
5. Off first a DVD player, and then my laptop, through the projector at the theatre

Of course color and saturation and etc. varied from set-up to set-up, but after much testing I basically ended up with a middleground where things looked mostly good everywhere. Got the best results, actually, on the standard DVD players on the old projection TVs, with the PS3-HDTV combo coming in not too far behind. But the worst by far is the projection at the theatre. Not ideal. As I mentioned...the image is just lacking depth, definition, brightness...life. But I guess I need to reassess once I get me some more lumens...

So I now have calls out to two separate rentals houses and they're going to get back to me on Monday (or I'm going to call them again) about what's ideal and available (and affordable).

Dan - I will ask them about whether or not they have any Barco units, but right now one house is offering a 4500 lumen InFocus unit that is geared towards video...does this sound sufficient in your opinion? They're quoting me at around 320 for the weekend for that unit.

I also have a second projection option now that I'm renting - I can add an adapter lens to give whatever projector I rent an adequate throw for reaching from the projection booth at the theatre to the screen (90 ft). As of now, the projector they have is nestled between two rows in the front of the theatre. Depending on the price and on whether or not it affects image quality, I may pay the few extra bucks out of pocket for the sake of authenticity.

As usual, I welcome any more feedback. I know that I'm new to the forum so I appreciate everyone taking their time to lend some advice. We actually just fulfilled two screener requests from the press yesterday and may be looking at some local/statewide coverage for our premiere...which is exciting but all the more terrifying. I want people to see the same quality (or almost the same, if projection is always slightly lacking) that I'm getting on my DVD!
 
The beamer I worked with (4000 ansilumen, widescreen version, has HDMI input) was also an InFocus device. The same device was used for dvd-screening of feature movies in a couple of venues, I found it's quality very good (knowing we used SD dvd's as playback source, using HDMI). So no doubt your film will look on it I suppose, as long as you keep the beamer at a distance from the projection screen that's within the advised distance of InFocus.

About the compression of the film. Why going for DVCPRO-HD as a playback format? Why not 720p / H264 with a proper bitrate? Your file will be smaller in size, 10 GB is too much I think as you risk the laptop harddisk having quick 'breathers' during continues playback of such an amount of file-size. Again, testing is knowing.

Why 60p? Did you shoot 60p, or 60i? What's the format in which your footage was shot and edited?

Something else that's not mentioned before: checkout audio sync problems. Especially if you connect the dvd-player digitally (HDMI?) to the beamer and using the analog audio out of the dvd-player connecting that to an mixer/amplifier. HDMI is video ánd audio, so if there are audio sync issues, use the audio output of the beamer and connect that to the mixer/amplifier (and not the analog audio-outputs of the dvd-player).
 
Yeah...I will definitely be testing all day on Friday. I don't think they have much else scheduled at the theatre.

As far as I know, the 60p codec is just the DVCPRO-HD condec that FCP uses for the 24p timeline at least. Don't pretend to understand how that works out but I have seen it all over the place in my 24p timelines so I think it's okay. Also remember reading somewhere that this is the case. I shot in 720p/24pN and worked in a 720p/24p timeline with no hitches.

The reason I let the file size run up to 10 GB is pretty basic - I figure I might as well output the best quality I can get. Doing that at the cost of stutters on playback is of course not in my plans, but everything did play fine when I tested it out this past Friday. Maybe I will also test a high-quality H.264 high-bitrate encode as well. Can't hurt to have options.

Thanks for the audio advice too. Everything played in sync out of the computer to the theatre sound system. That hookup goes as follows:

Computer (Stereo mini) --> Composite adapter --> LR Composite cables --> Mackie mixer --> Theatre sound system

Off a DVD player, the only difference is the removal of the stereo mini cable and the adapter from the beginning of the chain.

I didn't take a close look at the audio set-up because it worked well initially but I can probably take a peek if/when I have to do it. My post-production sound mixer has actually checked out the theatre's sound system and took things into account during his mix...which is fortunate. But getting things output properly is different (and even more important).

Thanks again Peter. I'm going to open a discussion with the rental guys about other output options tomorrow (such as a DVD player running through HDMI) just to keep things open for now.
 
Okay...so the big day for my lil' featurette came and went. Finally got some sleep and some rest so I wanted to check-in, as promised, so that future readers can use the info as needed.

We ended up going with the following equipment set-up, which was put together with a combination of my stuff, the theatre's equipment, and a rental projector:

  • Flick played through my MacBook Pro hooked up to the projector. I decided on a full-res QT export using the DVCPRO-HD codec for 720p/24p footage (my source format). Cleaned up and repaired my HD prior to saving a copy of the QT directly to the desktop for quick and easy access. We didn't encounted any stuttering or lags in playback.

  • Rental projector was an InFocus LP850. This was basically the best unit I could get for the money I had in the location that I was in. Drove almost a hundred miles to pick it up but it was worth the major jump in quality that we got with the increased lumens count from the house projector (4500 instead of 2000). Things went pretty well with plug-n-play in terms of color, brightness, and focus, but I did bump up the contrast and reduce the brightness because that's where I wanted the projection (neo-noir film, lot of shadow). The projector was also fitted with an "ultra long throw" adapter lens built by InFocus in order to allow it to reach the 28ft screen (bigger than they told me, good thing I checked) 92ft away.

  • Ran sound from stereo-mini jack on the laptop into a mono feed that was linked to a big-ass, old-school, rich-sounding house amplifier. Our project is very dialogue-heavy (and thus mixed to the center almost all of the time) with no real stereo work to speak of, so although I had two channels I mixed them into a mono source in the QT file and it worked great.
Tested that all out while the rest of our team set-up for the night and then...

...we sucessfully showed the film to a crowd of 250 people who came out feeling very impressed and entertained!

We were shooting for a bigger audience but the night did go very well (we also ran a Q and A with all of our actors and gave away a few door prizes at the end of the night). So we're happy...and all was well with the projection. Maybe we would have benefited from a few more lumens or something like that but, hey, maybe next time.

Another screening will be taking place in New York after the holidays, so if anyone is interested please let me know! :beer: You can find out more info about the project on our site: http://www.sexandjustice.com.

Thanks to everyone who wrote in with advice!
 
mtd2007 said:
Flick played through my MacBook Pro hooked up to the projector.[/B] I decided on a full-res QT export using the DVCPRO-HD codec for 720p/24p footage (my source format). Cleaned up and repaired my HD prior to saving a copy of the QT directly to the desktop for quick and easy access. We didn't encounted any stuttering or lags in playback.
Click to expand...

Which output did you use from the laptop to the projector? DVI? Or DVI to VGA adapter?

D
 
Good to read all things went well. Good luck with the film project and NY screening!
 
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