HPX170 ProRes (HQ) and DVCproHD Comparison (footage and full res stills)

But that's only look... not functionality and professional features. Just saying. Codecs are different, Media is different, Workflow is different, blah blah blah.
 
My 170 came back from Panasonic today, I had requested they look at the noise as compared to a 200A and reduce preamp gains. No change in the noise or sensitivity, no documentation from Panasonic service. Lens is better, but still has more play than I'd like. I'm not a shock-mount fan, can still move lens and image laterally while focusing if too much pressure applied.
 
I was all set to order the 170 but so glad I didn't. I still want to get a 170, but I'm going to wait until pany reduces the gain on these cams.
 
I bought an original DVX-100 when they first came out. IMHO, the Panasonic "experience" in quality and service is not the same as it used to be.

I could see back when the DVX was first out, they were the only game in town for a really cinematic look under 10Grand (for digital).

The competition has caught up. Furthermore, we're seeing smaller companies like Red and Ikonoskop step up to the plate.

With all of this in mind, let's say every single company ignored their customers, and Panasonic did a "better" job. Better doesn't make it good enough. I've been reading about the lens wobble issue with the HPX, and the Panasonic response. (Which in the end was fine, but kept people on their toes.)

I'm sorry, the customer should ALWAYS be given the benefit of the doubt. Especially the panny customers. Panasonic customers are some of the most loyal buyers I've ever seen for any product. They should be grateful for the success that WE have given them. The DVX/HVX turnout was unprecedented. This is turning into a rant, but there's a very important point:

I love panasonic, I've been using their products for 6 years. I don't want to see them out of the game, and lose customers. At the company I work for, anything less than treating the customer like royalty would cost us our business. I think the corporate world should be held to the same standards of a small business when it comes to survival. Panasonic, in the past, has worked cordially with their customers like no other large company, and I'm watching that slip away right here on the boards.

It's sad. And, I really hope I'm wrong.
 
Dino said:
My 170 came back from Panasonic today, I had requested they look at the noise as compared to a 200A and reduce preamp gains. No change in the noise or sensitivity, no documentation from Panasonic service. Lens is better, but still has more play than I'd like. I'm not a shock-mount fan, can still move lens and image laterally while focusing if too much pressure applied.
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Hi Jeff,

I asked the service guys about your camera and they said that you had included in your note that you needed the camera back quickly, which is in direct conflict to your other request which was to analyze the noise issue. So since they have a bit of a load on their plate right now and the camera appeared okay, and they were not comparing it to anything, but it looked okay, they decided to comply with your wish to have the camera back quickly.

To have gone the other route, that would have required them to send it over to the service center as there are doing the lens mod off site from the service center, and it would have had to spend a couple of days there. Perhaps when you have more time to spare on the camera you could let me know and we can take a closer look. I personally would like to compare your camera with my 200A and the 170 I have here but will wait until you have the time to spare with your camera.

One last thought, unlike older Analog cameras there are not little potentiometers inside these cameras that you can just put a twaeker on and adjust. They do not work that way. It is programmed in.

Best,

Jan
 
Kholi said:
I don't expect Panasonic to acknowledge it regardless. You see how much it took to get the Lens Wobble issue out there. It was being called a "feature" as the excuse and it took a hellstorm to even get someone to listen.

And that was a manufacturing issue. Something they did on purpose? It's almost pointless to even bother, we're going to be forced to eat it regardless.
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Hi Kholi,

If you would like to send me your camera I would be happy to look at it. Unfortunately with Jeff's camera the engineer's followed the instruction that Jeff needed his camera back quickly. If you can spare yours for a couple of days so that we can analyze it, contact me with a PM and we can set it up.

And for the record the shock mount is a feature-less feature, a safe-guard if you will and has been a feature of every camera we have made in this category since 2002. The unwinding of the complaint took about 5 days from the original post by Dino on the 2nd of October to my post on10/7/2008. This was due to not every camera having the issue, and it was taking place over a weekend, and from there, until the 20th of October to devise the modification and post here what had to happen and another week to implement it and get the parts stateside. So in the course of things it has taken about three weeks or so to go from the discovery of the problem which was not that evident at the very beginning of the thread. The beginning of the thread had the engineers in Osaka trying to hunt down a Letus adapter to put on the camera.

So if indeed either you or Jeff, if you can spare your cameras for a couple of days, I would be happy to escort them back to the service shop where we can analyze the output. Let me know and we can make it happen.

Best,

Jan
 
Jan,

Thanks for the feedback. I don't recall writing that I needed a quick turnaround in my note, but it's possible. I'm sure Panasonic service has a lot on their plate with the lens mods.

For the record, I think Panasonic's engineering response and parts fulfillment to address the lens issue is outstanding. Unusual to see a multi-national corporation respond so quickly.

I would be willing to send my camera in again, but I would like to know if the gains can be reprogrammed via new firmware?

I would also like Panasonic to look at a few 170's and 200A's that are in-house and let us know if a noise difference is seen. Also, is there a sensitivity difference, because my 170 is definitely faster than the 200A I was comparing it to? Assuming the same sensors in both cameras, unless somehow a smaller diameter lens is taking in more light(that would defy physics), it would stand to reason that the preamp gains are higher on the 170 than 200A.

Surely some initial side by side tests could be made by Panasonic without needing customers to send in their cameras?

Thank you for checking with service regarding my camera.
 
I'm with Dino. I would like to know, if they do find something different, can it be adjusted to match the 200A? I think a lot of people would appreciate having the same image the 200A kicked out at the expense of the extra speed the 170 has. Considering the 170 looks like the 200A @ +3dB, you could just use gain to get back there with no major consequence.

You can't go back to it on the 170, though.

I would also like to produce some evidence before I send. So must locate a 200A.

Thanks a lot for your response, Jan.
 
Kholi said:
The real weak link? 1/3" CCD Technology... I hope this is the last CCD Based Camera that Panasonic releases.

Thoughts welcomed.
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Kholi,

Just wondering what you don't like about the CCD. To me, that's one of the advantages of the Panasonic cameras - no rolling shutter effects.
 
I have said in another thread that there are not differences in the ones I have seen. None. I am interested in looking at your cameras and comparing them here. Next week I am at DV Expo, so next week is out. The week following would be ideal as I would have our new scope and the engineers in house to take that closer look. I couldn't tell what gains would be made as I do not know.

Best,

Jan
 
DM_rider said:
I'm very interested in getting this gain issue figured out as well.
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If you have a camera that you have tested as extensively as either Kholi or Jeff, I would be interested in looking at your camera. If you have not compared, then you really do not know whether your camera is noisier or it is just fine and you think it has a problem because these two guys have a problem. Hope you see the difference. Kholi and Jeff have tested and in their tests, they strongly feel that their 170 is noisier.

My 170s here are the same as the HVX200A. So that's what I need to see, a camera with a confirmed difference.

Thanks,

Jan
 
Kholi said:
I'm with Dino. I would like to know, if they do find something different, can it be adjusted to match the 200A? I think a lot of people would appreciate having the same image the 200A kicked out at the expense of the extra speed the 170 has. Considering the 170 looks like the 200A @ +3dB, you could just use gain to get back there with no major consequence.

You can't go back to it on the 170, though.

I would also like to produce some evidence before I send. So must locate a 200A.

Thanks a lot for your response, Jan.
Click to expand...

It sounds as though Jeff is the only one that has done a side by side with the component analog signals. That is what you need to do Kholi, Don't compare the HD-SDI vs. Component Analog. Apples to Apples.

I can't say what they are going to find nor can I say what they can do or would do, but right now without a camera that distinctly shows the issue, then they cannot do anything. Right now all of the cameras look the same to us.

Thanks,

Jan
 
Jan_Crittenden said:
My 170s here are the same as the HVX200A. So that's what I need to see, a camera with a confirmed difference.
Jan
Click to expand...

Jan,

Putting aside noise differences, are you saying that HVX200A's and HPX170's that you and your engineers have seen side by side are the same sensitivity wise?

I'm seeing close to a stop difference, the 170 is more sensitive at the wider end of the lens. How can this be with a lens that is 10mm less in diameter with a camera using the same sensors? The only technical reason I can think of would be higher preamp gains.
 
Jan_Crittenden said:
Hi Jeff,

Yes this is what I am seeing here. Our cameras are the same.
Click to expand...

Interesting, thanks Jan. I am surprised there would be such a big sensitivity difference from unit to unit in mass produced cameras that share the same firmware programmed gains, gammas, clips, knees, detail, blacks, matrices, etc.

Of course a CCD is an analog device, so maybe that's where the sensitivity difference comes from, but that doesn't explain increased noise.

I would like to send my camera to you week after next, when ever you're ready.
 
Jan_Crittenden said:
It sounds as though Jeff is the only one that has done a side by side with the component analog signals. That is what you need to do Kholi, Don't compare the HD-SDI vs. Component Analog. Apples to Apples.

I can't say what they are going to find nor can I say what they can do or would do, but right now without a camera that distinctly shows the issue, then they cannot do anything. Right now all of the cameras look the same to us.

Thanks,

Jan
Click to expand...

I owned the 200A for months before moving to the 170 and put about 200 solid hours of shooting on it. I saw it as soon as I turned the HPX170 on and it's very prevalent in post. I'll definitely do a side-by-side to confirm it to you guys, but the images are definitely not identical.

I'm not comparing HD-SDI versus anything, it's image to image and I would be happy to have a bad HPX170 so I can get my 200A image back. Trust me, the noise isn't worth the extra light.
 
Okay, so Kholi and Jeff,

By PM, please put your name and address in a message to me and I will have shipping lables for you so that you can ship next week Friday. Also need your phone numbers and your email addresses so that I can send you a pre-paid shipping lable.

Thanks,

Jan
 
I just wanted to say that I really apprechiate Panasonics efforts. I think their willingness to look at what individual users have to say gives them an edge over the competition. That's probably exactly one of the reasons why they have a loyal customer base
 
I'm there too.
I'll certainly look elsewhere if I have to deal with Rolling Shutter CMOS issues.
 
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