why pay for actors, music, etc. for short films?

Randall_Oelerich

Randall_Oelerich

Veteran
Why as filmmakers do we pay (maybe some of you do not) for actors, writers, or a film composer to score the film, or a CGI artist, or a motion graphic artist, or a sound engineer/mixer, for make short films? I just finished my first short film, paid the actor $100/day, paid a boom operator $100/day. I was about to pay a film composer a few hundred to score the film-- then it hit me, why? Why should I have to shell out money to help someone gain film credit exposure, why as filmmaker should I be the one to have to shell out cash to get an artistic film project done, why shouldn't all the artists involved work for free to see the project get made so everybody gets film credits, exposure, work towards fame, learn along the way?

As I look ahead to budgeting for making eight short films over the next couple of years and the costs involved, the thought hit me-- why should the filmmaker get stuck with paying for the project? I understand paying for crew-- not much fame in holding a microphone over someone, or a lighting reflector. But I mean for wannabe actors, editors, sound engineers, film composers, writers-- they want to learn the craft, get their name in credits, get noticed, produce art just as much as as the director/producer, right? So why shouldn't they work for free to see a film project result, just as the director/producer works for free, and usually much harder? There is likely no revenue from making shorts, so why should the director/producer get stuck paying other artists to make an artistic film project?

More ranting-- okay I understand at some magic point a director/producer filmmaker would have to pay to get talent of a certain caliber; I use talent here in the sense of roles other than actors (writers, film composers, etc.). But for small short films, we are talking about people still looking to gain exposure, gain film credits for IMDB.com and so on.
:violin:Randall
 
i'm looking for imdb credit and making a good reel, so i would work for free on a project that i like, it's not the case for everyone, but u will find allot of people just like u, looking for exposure. i'm a cinematographer/editor if u need an editor, that's one slot in the film u dont need to worry about anymore, try to find others and form a good crew. good luck
 
Unfortunately it's the nature of creating, that the creator often times must fund the vision... unless that creator is lucky enough to convince somebody else to "invest".

If you want to go beyond that... to simply answer your question in the literal sense... then I'd say that paying people can be the difference in getting better results instead of poorer results... or perhaps no results at all. Paying people is the most likely way to get things done.

Aside from the few friends I have on DVXuser... that are fantastic company AND create a consistently great product... I won't work for free... or even at a "gas/expenses" rate... which is what $100/day really is... and I feel your pain in paying people that don't even deserve that.

In filmmaking (and life) I don't know if you truly, consistently get what you pay for... but I'll wager that it's even less common to get what you don't pay for.
 
You, of course, can find people who will work for free. People do it all the time on short films and even feature length films. But some times the results, much like any project (home or car repair, website design, etc.) won't necessarily be as good as if you paid a professional who has experience. The pros are already established so they have no real benefit in doing something for the "credit".

Also, keep in mind, at the end of the day the short film is yours and only yours (much like a home, car, or website). It does not belong to the actors or the composer or the car mechanic. So people most likely want to be paid to work on a project that, in the end, doesn't belong to them. Yes, they get a credit which they can use to get more work. But what if the film is never completed or it turns out to be REALLY bad? Some times people might prefer the cash than the credit.

This is why, a lot of times, short films contain a lot of friends and family in the credits. Because friends and family are only interested in helping you succeed. They aren't interested in the credit or the money. But trying to get total strangers to join in the group hug is a much more difficult task.

Maybe if you give them a producer credit then that will help. lol

Good luck with your short films.
 
I totally agree with you. I hope I did not raise any anger here with the point I originally made. More of a philosophical question of a sort than anything.

Yeah money talks to be sure, I am just wondering if offering money is really needed (crew aside) *if* a filmmaker can find the right people--actors, writers, composers-- who are in the same boat, i.e. at the initial stages of their wannabe-involved-in-film careers, looking for credits more than pay. But certainly there is a line in the sand dividing recognized talent from unrecognized talent (talent being actors, writers, composers, etc) and the trick is to find the unrecognized talent that in fact has talent (e.g. a poorly cast film, a film with poor music, with poor editing, etc. likely serves little but a learning experience for all, because the end product will likely be lousy) but wants recognition-- now that is not so easy I imagine, and that is where to get things done it might require crossing that line in the sand which will require money.


MattinSTL said:
Unfortunately it's the nature of creating, that the creator often times must fund the vision... unless that creator is lucky enough to convince somebody else to "invest".

If you want to go beyond that... to simply answer your question in the literal sense... then I'd say that paying people can be the difference in getting better results instead of poorer results... or perhaps no results at all. Paying people is the most likely way to get things done....
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I would love to have an editor on board for a project, that is a huge time sucker, especially when someone has OCD tendencies like me-- where to cut, what to cut, etc. Finished my first short film (should have it ready for viewing in a month or so, ready to add music) and I had way too much car driving footage, int. and ext., and had to decide on about 20 seconds of footage to keep, sigh. Definitely storyboarding my next film project (15 min pyschological horror short) to shoot in ~Feb (I have an experience horror film actress on board)

Maybe join up on my myspace page so we can keep track of each other? My myspace page is for filmmaking-- actors, editors (you would be the first!), filmmakers, writers, composers, etc. Primarily Minnesota, USA but some roles are distance independent (writer, editor). http://myspace.com/r_oelerich I realize to pull people on board a project to work for free/credits, the project would have to interest them, so drop me a private message or email and I can share with you my planned filmed project(s); or go to http://www.borealpictures.com to see if any might interest you.
~Randall


amrrahmy said:
i'm looking for imdb credit and making a good reel, so i would work for free on a project that i like, it's not the case for everyone, but u will find allot of people just like u, looking for exposure. i'm a cinematographer/editor if u need an editor, that's one slot in the film u dont need to worry about anymore, try to find others and form a good crew. good luck
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Why pay for talent? It's in your best interest. You want people to show up on time or show up at all? You want your editor to work eight hours at night after a hard day's work so you can finish in time? People give more when they feel valued. They'll take you seriously. They might even think that you MAY, I repeat, MAY actually finish the project and they'll have something to show for their time and effort. Most of the short indie or student films I've done for free as an actor never gave me anything in return. No PROMISED copy, as in you can't have a copy of something that isn't completed. Every actor I know has a similar story to tell. I only work for free for family or when I'm given a great deal of control in the project. And I don't expect anyone to work for free unless they have a controlling interest. Remember, it's your project, the talent just plays a part in it unless it's a cooperative effort ala SABI, Zak Forsman's model. The vast majority of shorts don't do anything but give everyone involved some experience. They lead to opportunity or "fame" for very few. So that's not really a good carrot to dangle in front of us jackasses.
 
If people don't get paid, it's called a hobby.

Are you sharing the ownership of the production with all of these players? If your film somehow makes a ton of money are you just going to split it up evenly between everyone? If one of your crew doesn't like the script, you're just going to let them rewrite it correct?
Did everyone get to vote on what script to do and how to do it? What if they decide they want a new director, are you just going to give the project to them and walk away?

You pay because the film is YOUR baby. Everyone is doing what YOU want to do so YOU get to pay for it.

People have worked hard to turn this chaos into a career. You should respect that and respect the people who are working on YOUR film enough to want to pay them.

Put it this way, why don't you just do it all yourself?
 
Worst case scenario-- a short film project does not get finished. Still, the artists involved (actors, editor, writer, composer, etc) all got to practice their skills. The actor got to practice acting in front of a camera, etc. Of course a finished project is the ultimate goal. But if up front everybody is aware that everybody is depending on everybody else, it is a collaborative project, what would be wrong with that?

Money talks, no doubt. I am just make a case for why the filmmaker should have to be the one shelling out the cash for amateur short film projects, except of course as a carrot to get the project done faster, maybe find people faster to be involved. But everybody involved gets film credits-- director, writer, actors, editor, composer, sound engineer-- why should the director/filmmaker have to the bone shelling out the cash to everybody to do a project that benefits all involved? (except as I said, for crew, which I feel must definitely be paid cash). Now that said, the project would have to be great enough to interest those involved to work for free-- a great script, a director who can show examples of films done and the quality of cinematography, quality of sound, etc.



rsbush said:
Why pay for talent? It's in your best interest. You want people to show up on time or show up at all? You want your editor to work eight hours at night after a hard day's work so you can finish in time? People give more when they feel valued. They'll take you seriously. They might even think that you MAY, I repeat, MAY actually finish the project and they'll have something to show for their time and effort. Most of the short indie or student films I've done for free as an actor never gave me anything in return. No PROMISED copy, as in you can't have a copy of something that isn't completed. Every actor I know has a similar story to tell. I only work for free for family or when I'm given a great deal of control in the project. And I don't expect anyone to work for free unless they have a controlling interest. Remember, it's your project, the talent just plays a part in it unless it's a cooperative effort ala SABI, Zak Forsman's model. The vast majority of shorts don't do anything but give everyone involved some experience. They lead to opportunity or "fame" for very few. So that's not really a good carrot to dangle in front of us jackasses.
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Six simple words...You get what you pay for.

Other than as a hobby or learning exercise, short films are mostly a waste of time anyway. They have very little (not none) commericlal viability. I guess a few people might break even on web material.

Credits don't mean a whole lot, connections with established players that can pay you do.

Dan
 
Randall_Oelerich said:
blah blah blah
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Honestly, if you're trying to figure out why you should pay the people who work hard for you to create a great film, you shouldn't be making films. Fame and experience don not put food on the table. Once you get past the point of student/practice films you have to pay those people if the film is something that will be shown somewhere other than youtube.
 
I agree completely. A learning experience, but when it is a learning experience for both the filmmaker and the other artists involved, again my point is why should the filmmaker pay others so they can also learn, why is the filmmaking paying their "tuition"? Of course once a filmmaker wants to make a high quality short, or feature film, you gotta pony up the cash, pay the artists involved, because there could be money in it for the filmmaker/producer, right? (although even that seems a long shot with indie features). I only plan to make about 6-8 short films in the next 1-2 years, to learn the craft (well this brings up another question-- just how many short films does a noob filmmaker need to make before diving in and making an indie feature film?), and then yeah I might as well quit wasting money making shorts and just make an indie feature, pay the actors and other artists involved, produce a product (feature film) that has a chance of making to online rentals or straight to DVD in blockbuster, etc.- where then the credits will mean something to the actors, writer, composer, etc. And as the filmmaker who shells out the money (mine or investors') I stand to maybe get some or all of it back depending on how efficiently (=cheaply) I was able to make a high quality indie feature from a great script.

puredrifting said:
Six simple words...You get what you pay for. Other than as a hobby or learning exercise, short films are mostly a waste of time anyway. They have very little (not none) commericlal viability. I guess a few people might break even on web material. ...n
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I started a voluntary film crew using meetup.com

http://www.meetup.com/AllentownFilmCrew/

The group is all volunteer. Pretty much anybody that wants to be a part of a short film crew can join. We just completed out first project for Twilight Fest.

The group is run like a democracy. People vote on the story we want to do and people pick what parts they want to do both on the crew and cast side. The goal is to continue making short films for people to learn and grow.

I just started this but it is growing and I really enjoy it. Maybe you can consider doing something similar.
 
What a concept! meetup.com should have entered the recent google contest where you submit a world changing idea, winner gets $10,000,000 (yup, ten million dollars)!

mjjason said:
I started a voluntary film crew using meetup.com

http://www.meetup.com/AllentownFilmCrew/

The group is all volunteer. Pretty much anybody that wants to be a part of a short film crew can join. We just completed out first project for Twilight Fest.

The group is run like a democracy. People vote on the story we want to do and people pick what parts they want to do both on the crew and cast side. The goal is to continue making short films for people to learn and grow.

I just started this but it is growing and I really enjoy it. Maybe you can consider doing something similar.
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I think what you said may be one of the best things I have heard, at least for myself personally, regarding filmmaking. Inspires me to plan and make just maybe four or so quality short films, maybe even pay some people to help make sure they are quality, then move on and make an indie feature film, if even an 80 minute one location just a few actors, which means I need to get busy and write the screenplay for it over the next year.
:beer: Randall

puredrifting said:
...Other than as a hobby or learning exercise, short films are mostly a waste of time anyway. They have very little (not none) commericlal viability. I guess a few people might break even on web material. ..
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Randall_Oelerich said:
I think what you said may be one of the best things I have heard, at least for myself personally, regarding filmmaking. Inspires me to plan and make just maybe four or so quality short films, maybe even pay some people to help make sure they are quality, then move on and make an indie feature film, if even an 80 minute one location just a few actors, which means I need to get busy and write the screenplay for it over the next year.
:beer: Randall
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Don't give up on short films! Dan is absolutely right, but there's one key point missing:

The art of the short film sustains the tradition of storytelling! Even seasoned pros still get out and make shorts once in a while, just for the sake of making a short and telling a good story.

And short films are also your playground to test out new ideas for larger projects. Look at Pixar! They have a short before every one of their Disney films... and the reason they make them is to test out new lighting or new fur textures or new muscle movements before they start on the next biggie. Remember the birds on the power line? That was testing feather and fur movement designs before they put them to work for Monsters, Inc. And they tell good stories with their short films as well.

But to your original question, there are some aspects of production that you have to value before you start deciding who on your short film should be paid. Take audio, for example. Recordists/mixers who get paid regularly - and well - for their work, do so for a reason. If you want to ensure a solid dialog track, pay a sound professional. I'm not biased or anything, but... :happy:

Somebody posted a link around here recently... I'll try to find it. It's an interview with film makers about the people who should be paid no matter what, if you want your project to come out right.

*EDIT*
Found the thread... http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=150140
 
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puredrifting said:
Six simple words...You get what you pay for.

Other than as a hobby or learning exercise, short films are mostly a waste of time anyway. They have very little (not none) commericlal viability. I guess a few people might break even on web material.

Credits don't mean a whole lot, connections with established players that can pay you do.

Dan
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I totally agree with the first statement, unless you are fortunate enough to have a really talented friend who works for free.

All the film makers I know shoot shorts to develop techniques and get better at their craft. Beyond that it's just practice until they can produce a feature.
 
Right,

I am not saying never make shorts, they are fun. But if you have a mortgage and tuition for the kids, how many of us can afford the time to go work for free very often?

I think if you and a bunch of talented friends want to get together and create a short, have a blast and nobody needs to get paid. But when you want pros to get involved, you have to pay them and the good ones are used to making a lot. That's where I get the you get what you pay for from.

I think there are two different levels, "films student" and "pro". If you are working with pros, they want to get paid.

Or find a bunch of rich bored people who want to finance your short film. ;-)

Dan
 
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