Help me choose my new camera before my family kills me

Dino said:
PerroneFord,

Most of my clients shoot P2 Native at 720/24P, so that's 40Mbps, or 2.5 minutes per Gb. That makes a 16Gb card capable of recording 40+ minutes. So $1275 an hour, not $3K+. Three 16Gb cards offers two hours of record time.
Click to expand...

But why do they do this? Is it to stretch the recording time? Is it to get more frame rates? Would they do 720 if they had exactly the same recording time at 1080 and all the frame rates too?

When the EXx users drop to 720, we don't get more recording time, but we do get full overcranking on the cheap media, and increased picture quality because the codec is compressin a LOT less data.
 
PerroneFord, there is no advantage to shooting at 100Mbps in 720/24 or 30p.

More recording time, more frame rates are the main advantages. When we use a FireStore with our HDX900, we also do 720/24 or 30p P2 Native or Quicktime Native most often as well. Since Panasonic doesn't have too many full raster cameras and DVCPRO HD
doesn't record full raster, there just isn't a big upside to shooting 1080.

Most prefer longer record time and frame rate flexibility. The 170 has a lot more frame rates than a 200A. I feel better about feeding a FireStore 40Mbps vs. 100--it doesn't tax
the error correction on data input as much, which hopefully means a more reliable recording
that is less susceptible to shock.

Now, in the case of the EX1, 1080/24 or 30p is worthwhile, the resolution difference is obvious. However, I would not advise 1080/60i with the EX1 or any XDCAM 4:2:0 codec,
the lack of colorspace is very noticeable.
 
If it sounded like over-selling, its just that I feel hijacked at the prices of the P2... and it's only that we started off at film magazine sizes that we tollerate the prices at all... Either way, if it's 200 bucks for 2 hours of HD, then that's pretty friggin awesome. If Sony were smart they'd embrace this.. do some R and D and put out their own package...


If it's novelty or not, there's people doing it right now with very good reliability... sounds like a nice problem to have
 
mrbrycel said:
EX1. Rolling shutter, long GOP codec, SxS headaches. Basically its the clearest picture you can get..... If you keep it on a stable tripod, and don't pan or tilt.
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EX1 SxS headaches... None. Not to mention you can now shoot 16GB SDHC cards with an expresscard adapter. The card and adapter cost less than $110.

Unless you're whip panning and looking for skew, the whole pan thing is inflated.

As for the HPX170. Its an awesome camera. It's far better in the noise department over the original HVX200. The HVX200A is another good option.
 
Bobonli said:
Is this true of overcranking onto these cards? I thought I read that people were having issues in this arena.

Perhaps I misunderstood the theme of the threads.
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You can only overcrank 24P to 40FPS, or 30P to 50FPS, but it works capturing all your normal high quality modes. It's no big deal, when you need to overcrank, just throw in your free SxS card tht comes with the camera.

The Kensington 7-in-1 expresscard adaptor ($25-$40) and SanDisk 16GB Ultra II 15MB/s SDHC cards $70 work excellent in all of the EX1 HQ modes.

In about one month SanDisk is releasing their 32GB Ultra II 15MB/s SDHC card. This only cost $150. So for less tham $200 you will be able to have access to 110 minutes on the EX1/EX3 using any of their highest quality modes.

We've been testing the KxS adapter with the EX1/EX3 for over six weeks without ANY errors.
This whole thing came about when Sony enabled support for their PHU-60K portable 60GB capture drive.
The EX1 needs the latest software 1.11 and the EX3 works out of the box.
 
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In case anyone cares. (And a thank you to everyone for chiming in, helping me to decide.)

I'm going with the EX1.

To my eye looking at side by side footage, the low light performance, and noise is MUCH better than even the hpx170. If I were with a full crew, and were into cinematic lighting, than the HPX would make more sense. As it stands, doing almost exclusively natural lighting, the EX1 is better for that.

I'll learn to get around the long GOP, the rolling shutter, I highly doubt will be an issue for me. I almost never overcrank... so.

I also feel like this will be a sound investment. With scarlet turing into a total mystery, and an HD-SDI out, with the cineform recorder coming soon, it seems like it will do me well for a long time.

The only other camera I think I would love is the Ikonoskop dII. Too expensive for me right now. No established workflow, and as far as I know it's a single chip. (nothing wrong with that, but having 3 1920x1080p sensors is pretty nice. The front end can compete with a CineAlta, according to Adam Wilt. And again, with uncompressed 422 coming soon, even better. I don't think RAW is ready for primetime yet. I got the newest RedCine build and some raw footage, and it looked amazing, and the tweaking was amazing, but man o man, crash crash crash.

So you're back to some of the limits of film in the first place.

Soon they'll have standards for desktop grading. I don't want it to sound like I'm bashing anyone else's chosen cams, or future technology. Cinema tech is rapidly developing. I look forward to the options of a true D-cinema workflow coming in the next few years. In the meantime, the EX1 is more than enough for what I want to do.

Take care, and thanks again.

Anyone who'd like to post to make me feel even better about my choice, please do!
 
arrestthisman said:
In case anyone cares. (And a thank you to everyone for chiming in, helping me to decide.)

I'm going with the EX1.

Anyone who'd like to post to make me feel even better about my choice, please do!
Click to expand...

Something else coming. Sorry I have to do things this way....

This is a screen grab of a 1080/24p recording at 1/48 shutter, open iris, -3db. and ONE FOOTCANDLE OF LIGHT.

Vimeo Video coming.... sadly not in HD.

1225083551.jpg
 
reem12 said:
There's alot of noise in the video.
Click to expand...

Yes, it is. I really should have posted the picture profile to go with it. This particular profile is optimized for outdoor use. It expects to have about 100+ FC to work with. Had I used a workup of STD3, it would have been a LOT brighter. Maybe I'll do that tomorrow..

Then again, maybe some folks don't understand just how little light 1FC is. Who uses a light meter anyway?
 
Actually, Perrone, the 200A and EX1 are on the same level as far as noise goes in CineD. The HPX170? Different story.

Out of all of the cameras, I would go with the HMC150 or HVX200A. Especially if you don't have actual clients. I think the HMC150 would be the winner for resolution and lowlight sensitivity, great and accurate color representation.
 
Kholi said:
Out of all of the cameras, I would go with the HMC150 or HVX200A. Especially if you don't have actual clients. I think the HMC150 would be the winner for resolution and lowlight sensitivity, great and accurate color representation.
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As long as you don"t need the resolution or the framerates then it seems like a terrific camera. I'd probably have one if they could have guaranteed the shipping date. But I had to pull the trigger before that was locked in. I had to have my camera by Sept. 30, or my money would have been null and void.

The P2 workflow was simply too expensive for my corporate budget. In fact SxS was too expensive too but since the camera was shipping with two 8GB cards, and I could hook my firestore to it, that sealed the deal.
 
You know what Kholi, I'm going to give the HMC150 a second look.

Basically I feel I've been burned by DVCPRO HD. I'm very worried about the middtone noise with the HPX170. I have a feeling it'll be a little while before they get it really right.

The price sure is right with the HMC150. I'd get the panny look. The only thing is the transcoding with the h.264. Man that's going to be a serious pain. Also, the EX1 is sharper, no doubt. That said, it'd have HDMI, which I prefer over HD-SDI (no 450$ converter needed for blackmagic card).

How does 21-24mbit AVCHD stack up against XDCAM EX 35mbit?

Lastly, I've looked all over without a straight answer, what do you give up from the HPX170, especially focus-tool-wise, with the HMC150. Framerates are NOT important. I almost never do slo-mo. The 4.2 weight would be nice, back into Merlin territory.

but noise... Kholi, you own all of these cams, right? Or at least have a lot of experience? is the HMC150 less noisy than the HPX? HVX200a is out of the question for me, I don't need the tape deck, and can't justify the upgrade without a move to a slightly different workflow. (Even if it's worse. It's my own mischigas, don't ask.)

PerroneFord: Thank you so much for the still and the vimeo clip. It was a little noiser than I'd hoped but 1FC, Jesus! I'd like to qualify that with some drool!

I really appreciate you taking the time to post. Everyone here, I'm sure in incredibly busy working, and I'm still recovering from illness; I really respect the working-man's time.... especially since I'll be joining you guys soon :)
 
arrestthisman said:
You know what Kholi, I'm going to give the HMC150 a second look.
Click to expand...

I think you should. If you don't need the frame rates, can live without the resolution, and you can give it decent light, I think it's a terrific camera.

arrestthisman said:
The price sure is right with the HMC150. I'd get the panny look. The only thing is the transcoding with the h.264. Man that's going to be a serious pain. Also, the EX1 is sharper, no doubt. That said, it'd have HDMI, which I prefer over HD-SDI (no 450$ converter needed for blackmagic card).
Click to expand...

I would LOVE to have both an HDMI and an SDI out on the EX1. But honestly, the only things I would have used it for, would have been an outboard recorder. And I don't see any HDMI ones. Transcoding h.264 will get easier over time, but I do like the MXF re-wrap of the EX. Quick and easy.


arrestthisman said:
How does 21-24mbit AVCHD stack up against XDCAM EX 35mbit?
Click to expand...

I asked this question around the time I was ordering. My feeling at the time as that the AVCHD would be better. But now I'm not so sure. Either way, I said that if I *REALLY* needed to get around the 35mb, the answers were out there. Not sure how'd you do that with the HDMI if the onboard codec wasn't up to snuff. I guess then you would have to buy that box to go to a convergent or whatever.

arrestthisman said:
but noise... Kholi, you own all of these cams, right? Or at least have a lot of experience? is the HMC150 less noisy than the HPX? HVX200a is out of the question for me, I don't need the tape deck, and can't justify the upgrade without a move to a slightly different workflow. (Even if it's worse. It's my own mischigas, don't ask.)
Click to expand...

The thing is, I don't know how it's going to have less noise with the same sensors and technology as the other small cameras. At best, I'd have say it would be equal to the HVX200a. Which is certainly not bad. And you'd get to roll to SDHC instead of P2. I just wish they had put TWO SDHC slots in. Geez.

arrestthisman said:
PerroneFord: Thank you so much for the still and the vimeo clip. It was a little noiser than I'd hoped but 1FC, Jesus! I'd like to qualify that with some drool!
Click to expand...

I'm going to do two more stills today. If for nothing else than my own entertainment. One with the standard picture profile and 1FC, and another with me metering a scene that calls for F2.0 at ISO320.. which is where I rate the camera on -3db.
 
I think this is a great thread and not really rife with all that fan boy usual business. I think the 150 is an amazing camera for the cash, IF... you have a pretty fast computer. The transcoding on my macbook takes forever, so you'd need a Mac Pro or something equivilent in the PCside to get even close to a real time conversion.


I'm sure the 170 is taking a hit on the number of orders it's getting since the 150 is out, and since the recent hack with the EX1. My buddy just shot 8 hours of content with the KxS solution without a single hit or problem... Personally, Im boycotting purchasing anymore P2 cards for the proprietary high prices they are charging. To me, it's reminiscent of how Avid used to require their usage of their overpriced drives or they would pull your tech support and all that. When the raided SD cards are so CHEAP.. why are the P2s still so friggin' expensive?

For my next purchase it'll be either the 150 or the EX line-up. When I have to run-n-gun as a single operator having to offload P2 is just becoming too much of a pain and I don't want to spend 2500 bucks to get enough P2 to cover the run time of most of the concerts I'm shooting...
 
Ok,

So I decided to leave the picture profile alone, and just add a bit more light. I tried for an average of 10 foot candles, but came up a bit short. These are all between 7 and 10 footcandles. No processing at all. Just gain of -3, 0, and 6. Wide open aperature.


1225149040.jpg



1225149075.jpg



1225149105.jpg



ENJOY!
 
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