Help me choose my new camera before my family kills me

[arrestthisman]

Hi there.

I'll cut the crap. It's the HPX170/HMC150/ Or EX1.

I love the panny look. I have the HVX200, and love the color, and some the indescribable "looks" that the panny people (including me) just love. However, 60% of my photography is subject to low light, and I simply can't stand the noise anymore.

I've found the worst problem to be macroblocking in the mid-blacks, low tones. You know...

So I'm not so worried about the wobble, that's being fixed. But the noise in the midtones (a good thread in action where Barry Green just posted), concerns me. I definitely want to see how that pans out.

I love the idea of the 4:2:2 I-frame codec, but honestly it hasn't saved me with the HVX200.

I've spent hours upon hours on these boards, reading threads, doing searches, looking at sample footage. (Which unfortunately is almost all Vimeo, which, better than you tube, is hardly adequate for critical viewing of things like noise/grain.)

I don't like the idea of a long-GOP codec, and a 4:2:0 color space... but it's the image in the end. And like I said, low noise + low light performance is my #1 priority, with color "filmic" look a close second.

I just want to be happy with the images! I know you can't have it all. In this price range it's always a compromise. But please... a little help. I'm losing my sanity.

My dreams are sub-sampling chroma.

I'm seeing DCT artifacts in my peripheral vision.

There's high frequency noise in my reading glasses.

I beg for a little help. Or valium.

 

[mrbrycel]

I'd say you sell your 200 for a 200a, or get the 170. The low light is a lot better.

I've heard nothing but negative things about the EX1. Rolling shutter, long GOP codec, SxS headaches. Basically its the clearest picture you can get..... If you keep it on a stable tripod, and don't pan or tilt.

 

[reem12]

go with the hvx200a. it is closer to me to the ex1 in terms of low noise and very quiet in cine d. you gain image quality over the origial hvx200 but you sacrifice the pro out puts like sdi, and more pro monitor. but image quality and colors, i've found will not be the same as panny on none of these sub $10,000 cameras. there is a reason why people can see footage and tell you right away that it was done on an hvx. I'ts called mojo.

 

[wgzn]

If you keep it on a stable tripod, and don't pan or tilt.

a video camera that doesnt handle panning and tilting? in my world, thats called a still camera ; )

 

[PerroneFord]

I'd say you sell your 200 for a 200a, or get the 170. The low light is a lot better.

I've heard nothing but negative things about the EX1. Rolling shutter, long GOP codec, SxS headaches. Basically its the clearest picture you can get..... If you keep it on a stable tripod, and don't pan or tilt.

Look, if you want to hate on the EX1, that's your business. But if you haven't had any direct experience with one, and it's clear you haven't, then please refrain from giving misinformation to someone who might have a legitimate interest in the camera.

Rolling shutter an issue? Maybe. Maybe not.

Long GOP? Seemed fine at the Olympics this summer. If it's a real problem, use the SDI out. No GOP there.

SxS headaches? You mean like paying $100/hr for recording in 1080p? Not sure what headaches you're referring to. SxS seems to be as reliable as P2 with 1/4 the cost for Sony media, and ~1/40th of P2 cost per hour for KxS. I need more of those kinds of headaches! 4 hours of recording 1080p for $350, no swapping needed.

The HVX200a and the HPX170 are fine cameras, and may well meet this users needs. The EX1 might be all wrong for him. But can we leave out the hearsay and mudslinging and just give the guy some help?

Thanks.

 

[reem12]

I've touched, played with and tweaked the ex1, but could not get it to stop looking like a high end video camera in regards to moyion, whites, and color.

This seems to be a wonderful camera for interviews, news stuff, and other event work but Imo not as good as panasonic for narrative and more creative work. Don't kill me that is just my opinion and all subjective.

 

[PerroneFord]

I've touched, played with and tweaked the ex1, but could not get it to stop looking like a high end video camera in regards to moyion, whites, and color.

This seems to be a wonderful camera for interviews, news stuff, and other event work but Imo not as good as panasonic for narrative and more creative work. Don't kill me that is just my opinion and all subjective.

Interesting. I have no interest in slamming you. It's just hard to be both a Sony and Panasonic owner and see the EX1 totally dismissed on this forum, most often from people who've never as so much held one.

I've said on this forum and others, if my work was primarily in narrative, I'd choose a different camera. I have my issues with the HVX (even for that kind of work), but it's better suited for motion with the non-GOP codec.

I am going to be quite curious to see how the EX1 does with the NanoFlash and other SDI recorders that remove the intraframe codec, and move the bitrate to 100-150 Mbps. The only issue remaining should be the rolling shutter.

The EX1 may never equal the HVX or the HPX for narrative work. Time will tell.

 

[arrestthisman]

Everyone, thanks for the opinions. I really appreciate the feedback.

Perrone: Thank you for your opinion as well. It's brave to be a Sony user on this forum

I'm going to be doing mostly narrative work. Extensive color correction, and probably a lot of greenscreen. I never would have considered the EX1, but the idea of putting the SxS card right into my MBP, peaked my interested. Also, since I'm selling my HVX, I figured, if I'm going to leap to sony, now's the time.

I just got some footage of both side by side, and I was able to color correct the EX1 to look awfully similar to the HVX, BUT the codec was not as "willing" during CC as DVCPRO HD.

That said, I feel like some warm cards and in-cam tweaking could get the EX1 to look similar.

I'm very surprised when I look at EX1 footage, how there seems to be LESS macroblocking then HVX. I thought between mpeg 2 long GOP and DVCPROHD it was supposed to be no-contest.

I'm going to post some more thoughts when my battery power is more than 1%.

 

[PerroneFord]

Everyone, thanks for the opinions. I really appreciate the feedback.

Perrone: Thank you for your opinion as well. It's brave to be a Sony user on this forum

You said it brother! But again, I am a Panasonic owner and user too. So I walk the fence. I *LOVE* the look I get out of my DVX. Especially, now that I've tweaked it where I want it.

I'm going to be doing mostly narrative work. Extensive color correction, and probably a lot of greenscreen. I never would have considered the EX1, but the idea of putting the SxS card right into my MBP, peaked my interested. Also, since I'm selling my HVX, I figured, if I'm going to leap to sony, now's the time.

In narrative work, if you are going to be panning, or on the move with a stabilizer, I'd REALLY consider using the SDI port on the Sony. Let's not pretend that the long GOP issues won't show up under some circumstances. They most certainly will. However, you can walk around them with the EX1, and that's the advantage. You cannot walk around the rolling shutter, but in narrative work, that's generally not going to be a huge problem since you can control the camera movements. I also wouldn't say that "now is the time." These are the early days of CMOS. Things are CERTAINLY going to improve in the coming years.

I just got some footage of both side by side, and I was able to color correct the EX1 to look awfully similar to the HVX, BUT the codec was not as "willing" during CC as DVCPRO HD.

The nice thing about the EX1, is that you don't have to do this in post. It's adjustable enough to do most of it in-camera, leaving you very little to do in post. I would (and do) also transcode my footage to a different codec if I am going to be doing a lot of CC. That's still Mpeg2 you're working with.

That said, I feel like some warm cards and in-cam tweaking could get the EX1 to look similar.

I'd avoid the warm cards. Are you aware that you can change the color temp of the EX1 right from the direct menu? Just takes a second to roll from say 6500k to 2700k, and watch the results right on the LCD or monitor. I don't even bother with a white balance any more. I turn on autotracking white, using the camera as a color temp meter, then manually dial in the color temp. Works awesome, and takes about 30 seconds to a minute to do.

I'd suspect that lining up both cameras with a ChromaDuMonde 28, you could dial the Sony in quite close in color to the HVX.

I'm very surprised when I look at EX1 footage, how there seems to be LESS macroblocking then HVX. I thought between mpeg 2 long GOP and DVCPROHD it was supposed to be no-contest.

Why are you surprised there is less macroblocking? It's only no-contest depending on who you're talking to. When you compare the images, there's not really the gap (in color or quality) that some might have you believe. I know I'm not supposed to say that here, but...

I'm going to post some more thoughts when my battery power is more than 1%.

Please do.

 

[Justyn]

I'm a huge HVX fan and want to buy a 150 and 170, but manalive... being able to hack the EX1 and shoot 50 minutes of HD on a 50 dollar express card reader and a 15 dollar SD card... Sways the vote in a huge way..


My buddy said the Rep at sony is taking a weird stance on it, and they are tying to stop the kensington people from selling the reader.. but shoot. if there's enough of them out there, then should be good and Sony should embrace it.. I presonally hate the cost so I'm getting buy on the 2x4 gig cards I first got. It's a pain but so is paying way too much for media that costs too much.


I know there's architecture and whatever in the P2, BUT.. The SD cards that they have in there raided together aren't worth even worth 40 bucks anymore... These P2 card prices.. are the prices we have been paying for gas... over-inflated for the sake of making money on the cards...

Or they are like the cokes in the movie theater.. or whatever analogy..



SO.. as much as I love Panny, the ability to shoot SD cards is a major vote in the Sony camp and I'm not the only one thinking that. Several people I know have sold their cams and jumped ship and for about 200 bucks, you can buy enough SD cards to shoot a full day without ever offloading.

 

[PerroneFord]

Well lets not oversell here Justyn. The Kensington adapters are about $35-$40. I paid $38 each and got 2. My Sandisk Ultra II 16 GB card was $63.99 at Newegg. Total $104 plus shipping. That is for 58 minutes of 1080p.

Since there is an issue with just swapping the SDHC cards if you have two adapters loaded, I simply chose to buy one adapter per card. This removes the problem. So my cost is now ~$100 per hour to shoot, give or take a few bucks and a couple minutes.

The Sony 16GB card is currently $849 at B&H and curiously, the Sandisk SxS is now $739! But either way it's still quite expensive per hour. Since the Panny P2 cards give 16 minutes per 16Gb card, you need 4 per hour. That is $3396. Getting there with 32GB P2 is cheaper as B&H shows $1549 for those. So $3098 per hour.

The P2 stores intraframe 1280x1080 at 100 mbps though. The money wrench in all of this will be the solid state SDI recorders from Convergent and hopefully others. The Nanoflash will come in at about the price of 4 16GB p1 cards. And it will give EX1 users and HPX users the ability to write to inexpensive media at 50, 100, and 160 Mbps. Either long GOP or I-Frame.

If I was an HPX curious buyer, I'd be watching that quite closely! Compactflash looks to be running about $520/hr at the same data rates the P2 cards are seeing.

 

[Bobonli]

Interesting and civil discussion here. I'm in the same boat as the OP. One thing I didn't see mentioned is renting both and comparing directly. Yes, it will set you back a few $$$ but then you'll be basing your decision on personal experience not hearsay. Hopefully the rental house can apply the rental toward purchase.

It's a shame that technology can't be perfect! Both cameras have enough little issues to give an informed purchaser pause before buying. I wonder how many people base their decision solely on ergonomics or simply on the price of the media and don't even worry about the other issues like GOP, CMOS, wobble etc.

For me, the P2 card prices are the issue. I'm opposed to paying $3400 to run a $5000 camera for an hour. But if you look in the Sony forum you'll see that some people are having issues with the SxK adapter method; so that's not necessarily a 100% solution to the problem either.

Choices, choices.....

 

[reem12]

Will someone please show an ex1 clip that matches the gama, and colors of panasonic.

 

[arrestthisman]

See to me, the thing about the SxS/or SDHC media reader hack is that it is a non-essential nicety.

I could do the work I do with one 4GB P2 card in 1080p, and I'd be fine. I take my time when shooting. I try to use every advantage one can utilize in a small production. One of which is time. Where I live there are a lot of people who are willing to work hard and give up a lot of time to get a credit, even if they know the film is not likely to do much. Besides, why rush? If it's not serious $$$ on the line, it should be fun.

BTW, in case anyone is interested, I'm back to leaning on the HPX170. Barry just posted a 200a/170 noise comparison. He couldn't tell a difference. I saw a small difference, but nothing major. Both cams are certainly a major step up from the HVX200.

CC'ing some DVCPRO HD cuts really swayed me after trying out the Long-GOP. It may not be raw but DV100 can really be pushed harder in post. I do a lot of post work.

Resolution is also, just not as important to me. I'd be fine with SD if it were progressive, 444 RGB, 3-chip, versus HD 4:2:2 (or worse 4:2:0). (I would like to qualify this statement by saying that it's not really the specs, but the image that tends to follow the specs. In other words, I'd be fine with 4:2:0 if it LOOKED like 4:2:2. It's not the numbers, it's the image.)

A quick aside, I'm loving this thread. As bobonil pointed out, I haven't seen a more civil, honest, and friendly EX1 or Panny thread.... ever. Lovefest aside:

Right now for these prices, it's going to be a compromise. Hell, ANY price point... nothing's perfect. But when I go through it (my priorities): 1. Low light/Low noise 2. Film look (I hate that term; it really should be "narrative look." I've seen plenty of "Videoy" Vision stock.) 3. Weight/size 4. Ease of use... And much much more.

The waveform/histogram, focus bar, is a big plus with the HPX170. All in all, I think it is likely the best camera for me. I think I got cold feet with the emerging "issues," and thought maybe it's time for a change, given that I was SO disappointed at the HVX200 low light footage. After sobering up, I think it's a better fit than the EX1.

Another thing is that the HPX170 is squarely ripe for a Merlin. I love steadicam shots. Love em'! EX1 is pushing it, on the weight. Those native 1080p sensors are very tempting... But, I'm picturing myself in real world situations, and even if it's only piece of mind. Rolling shutter, and Long-GOP is not something I want to deal with.

Honestly, the more I think about it, the more I think that I'll probably be happy with either camera. I might as well get one I'm familiar with (panny equipment/workflow), and the one with the best "out of box" look (for me).

One thing that's priceless is falling in love with a look. And the panny look, knowing what I can do with the HVX, and knowing I can do much more with the HPX170... well speaks for itself.

I also see an EX2 in the future with a next generation codec and newer CMOS sensors. The think the panny look is possibly a bit more timeless. Less about quality maybe, but very unique. Kind of like Mercedes versus BMW.

Regardless of the drive, the features, etc. a 10 year old Benz has always looked better to me than a 4 year old BMW. I don't know why. Just me.

That said, the EX1 looks like a wonderful camera, and the more I learn about it the more I think I'd like it; I just think I like panny a little more. I think...

People are doing wonderful things with the EX1, and if next week panasonic doesn't get the lens/noise fixed, I may just end up with one. But all things being equal, with all I illustrated above, well. You get the idea.

I hope this back and fourth is helpful to people making the same decision. These are all great cams, and they do make it hard to chose one!

Thanks again to everyone for their input.

I will post again soon; and I will certainly post again once my order is in. (THE POINT OF NO RETURN!!!errr. .... 15 day return....)

 

[Dino]

Since the Panny P2 cards give 16 minutes per 16Gb card, you need 4 per hour. That is $3396. Getting there with 32GB P2 is cheaper as B&H shows $1549 for those. So $3098 per hour.

The P2 stores intraframe 1280x1080 at 100 mbps though. .

PerroneFord,

Most of my clients shoot P2 Native at 720/24P, so that's 40Mbps, or 2.5 minutes per Gb. That makes a 16Gb card capable of recording 40+ minutes. So $1275 an hour, not $3K+. Three 16Gb cards offers two hours of record time.

 

[PerroneFord]

But if you look in the Sony forum you'll see that some people are having issues with the SxK adapter method; so that's not necessarily a 100% solution to the problem either.

This is something of a misnomer. There are zero problems with the Kensington and Sandisk solution. What you see on the thread is people having trouble trying to find cheaper solutions. The KxS solution works for everyone who tries it. Period. It's those trying to push things to $80/hr or so who are seeing the issues.

 

[PerroneFord]

Will someone please show an ex1 clip that matches the gama, and colors of panasonic.

I don't think anyone has even tried it. If I had the resources, I'd certainly try. And I doubt you'd ever get a true match. Close maybe, but not a true match. With different lenses, different sensors., and different compression, it's going to be different. Even if just a little.

 

[Bobonli]

This is something of a misnomer. There are zero problems with the Kensington and Sandisk solution. What you see on the thread is people having trouble trying to find cheaper solutions. The KxS solution works for everyone who tries it. Period. It's those trying to push things to $80/hr or so who are seeing the issues.

Is this true of overcranking onto these cards? I thought I read that people were having issues in this arena.

Perhaps I misunderstood the theme of the threads.

 

[PerroneFord]

Great post...

See to me, the thing about the SxS/or SDHC media reader hack is that it is a non-essential nicety.

And for me, it's just the opposite.

I could do the work I do with one 4GB P2 card in 1080p, and I'd be fine. I take my time when shooting. I try to use every advantage one can utilize in a small production. One of which is time. Where I live there are a lot of people who are willing to work hard and give up a lot of time to get a credit, even if they know the film is not likely to do much. Besides, why rush? If it's not serious $$$ on the line, it should be fun.

I completely understand this. I looked HARD at buying the HPX since I was already a Panasonic owner. The problem is that most of my work involves shooting conferences. 2-4 hours of continuous recording. I also do the occasional VIP interview, PSA, etc. If I was doing solely narrative work, it would have been a much harder choice for me, though the media costs would have still played a part. I guess film is still sold in 400ft rolls, but it seems so limiting to the creative process when everyone feels like they are really short on time. One of the great benefits of going video versus film, is that it shouldn't need to be rushed.

CC'ing some DVCPRO HD cuts really swayed me after trying out the Long-GOP. It may not be raw but DV100 can really be pushed harder in post. I do a lot of post work.

The native codec of the Panny wins here no question. I usually transcode to cineform if I am doing heavy post work. That's pretty rare for me though.

Resolution is also, just not as important to me. I'd be fine with SD if it were progressive, 444 RGB, 3-chip, versus HD 4:2:2 (or worse 4:2:0). (I would like to qualify this statement by saying that it's not really the specs, but the image that tends to follow the specs. In other words, I'd be fine with 4:2:0 if it LOOKED like 4:2:2. It's not the numbers, it's the image.)

I think this is the case with many narrative shooters. The Panasonics have "enough" resolution for their work. Then there are those who crave RED's 4k. The 4:2:0 is a red herring. Chroma subsampling is based on initial resolution. DV 4:4:4 is MUCH worse than XDCam 4:2:0, and 1280x1080 4:2:2 only offers a slight advantage over 1920x1080 4:2:0. At least by the numbers. Again, I think the Nanoflash will throw a wrench in things here, because of it's ability to give the XDCam camera's 1920x1080 4:2:2 intraframe at 160 Mbps. And the XDR will offer uncompressed recording. But it is an additional $3400. Pretty small price to pay if you really need something like that though. Especially comared to the $15k Wafian.

A quick aside, I'm loving this thread. As bobonil pointed out, I haven't seen a more civil, honest, and friendly EX1 or Panny thread.... ever. Lovefest aside:

It is nice...

The waveform/histogram, focus bar, is a big plus with the HPX170.

The waveform is nice. The EX1 has all the other stuff. But the EX1 has a better LCD. So it's a wash to me.

Rolling shutter, and Long-GOP is not something I want to deal with.

Long GOP is a correctable issue but the rolling shutter is not. If it affects your work, it's s show stopper. I think this is the MAJOR thing moving people away from the EXx cameras right now. When we finally get to a CMOS camera without the skew and partial exposure issues, I think the entire community will benefit.

People are doing wonderful things with the EX1, and if next week panasonic doesn't get the lens/noise fixed, I may just end up with one. But all things being equal, with all I illustrated above, well. You get the idea.

Stick with the Panny. It sounds better for your use.

I hope this back and fourth is helpful to people making the same decision. These are all great cams, and they do make it hard to chose one!

I hope it's helpful also. Different userbase of cameras. Simple as that.

 

[PerroneFord]

Is this true of overcranking onto these cards? I thought I read that people were having issues in this arena.

Perhaps I misunderstood the theme of the threads.

Ah yes. Where is stands right now, is that the cards cannot reach full overcranking. The cheaper KxS solution allows overcranking to 42fps on the EX1. A similar solution with the faster Sandisk card allows overcranking to just over 50fps on the EX3.

Mind you, this is at 1080p. At 720p, we can go right to the 60fps limit of the camera without issue. In this regard, it's quite similar to the HVX. But I don't think the HVX (or HPX) allow overcranking at 1080 at all. I could be wrong, but I thought I remembered that.