Motion and video

Dean is right.
Buck, if you're wondering if it's a EX issue, what you're seeing is not.
Sure, there's motion blur at 24 1/48, but 720 60P at 1/120 should sharp.

Like the three of us just mentioned, and now you proved it yourself, if you pause your footage during motion and it gets sharper, than it's all about how fast your video is written to your display.

Also, if it were a codec issue, you would see it on a paused frame. Also, XDCAM 35mbps is a decent codec. You proved the issue is a display speed by by pausing your frame during a motion scene.
 
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I'm not doubting at all what you guys are saying, and I probably shouldn't comment until I've done more 'real' testing other than just seeing it on my monitor. It's not sharp when I pause it either though.

Many televisions are LCD, and most monitors are LCD, and my viewfinder is LCD... if this is an LCD issue then will basically motion look bad on most everything I view it on? Maybe I'm scrutinizing my own footage too closely, but I've never really noticed motion losing sharpness on all my LCD-based viewing in the past with other things I view. Obviously I have much to learn.
 
Buck Forester said:
I'm not doubting at all what you guys are saying, and I probably shouldn't comment until I've done more 'real' testing other than just seeing it on my monitor. It's not sharp when I pause it either though.
Click to expand...

If it's not sharp when paused, then it's just motion blur.
Shoot the same movement at 720 60P 1/120 or a faster shutter.
It should look sharper at this rate.

Here's a post from vimeo of a very slow pan shot of an HVX200.
I'm not sure what this was shot at, but on the very laptop I'm using right now it gets a tad sharper when paused during a moving frame.
Also, this is a very slow pan. The image would be softer when panned faster.
Also, the image is not as detailed as an EX would of captured; therefore there might even by a bit more difference with this slow movement.
BTW, I'm using VideoLan. It's free and works with EX1 files without extracting MXF.

HVX200 slow pan
Right Click and Download:

http://www.vimeo.com/download/video:84648974?e=1224733875&h=f28a20871e8ffb64ccb904344d66a54b
 
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Buck Forester said:
I'm not doubting at all what you guys are saying, and I probably shouldn't comment until I've done more 'real' testing other than just seeing it on my monitor. It's not sharp when I pause it either though.

Many televisions are LCD, and most monitors are LCD, and my viewfinder is LCD... if this is an LCD issue then will basically motion look bad on most everything I view it on? Maybe I'm scrutinizing my own footage too closely, but I've never really noticed motion losing sharpness on all my LCD-based viewing in the past with other things I view. Obviously I have much to learn.
Click to expand...

I've noticed this to the more I've used the EX1. And indeed you should/would notice the blurring on other sources if the refresh rate of your LCD screen(s) were the issue.

The problem is apparent more on an LCD display but even on my projection HDTV I can see blur added to the signal when panning that other cameras would not exhibit. Is it the codec? I don't think it is. The camera's electronic shutter may be the culprit because if you set it to something high like 1/1000 or 1/2000 this blur issue goes away. At 1/60 (which is what I prefer to shoot at for interlaced footage) or 1/48 for 24p stuff (180º shutter angle) it does the same thing. Although due to 24p having a higher motion blur than 60i it's not as noticeable.

Plus I'd rather have the blur than the "Saving Private Ryan" effect that high shutter speeds get you. This goes back to the Barry Green test awhile back when they were panning and saw a loss of resolution on monitors or something to that effect. I'm going to try to dig up that thread...

Update: Found this thread about debunking Barry's findings but can't find the original post yet. http://dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=121989

You're not seeing things, Buck. Something's up.

Update:

Thinking again...I wonder if what *I* was seeing was the result of image stablilization? Tomorrow I'm going to investigate this a little more.
 
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Nothing's up..
If there is...
Show me an example of the EX side-by-side to "another brand X" camera under the exact same pan movement using the same frame rate and shutter speed.

If it's there (or not there) this will end this discussion.

Someone a while back posted a rez test with movement to disprove this when it was brought up before. Do a search for it.
 
Stevet,

I'm going to try to see if I can hook up with an HVX200 owner in my area to run tests. I want to compare the 24p cadence (if that's the word) of the EX1 vs. the HVX as well as this issue. As I posted with my latest update it could be an artififact of OIS. That's what I'm hoping anyway.
 
Stevet, thanks for the Vimeo link pan. That link shows that the panning image remains reasonably sharper than what I'm seeing with my EX1. It sharpens a tad more when it stops motion, but the lettering and objects still remain acceptably sharp to my eye. When I do this same thing with my EX1 the sharpness drops much more. I absolutely love my EX1, and this motion sharpness drop is only noticeable to me when I'm not following an object, my own concern is merely panning horizontally on stationary subjects like the link showed. If this is possibly an i-frame vs. long gop issue then I feel better about the NanoFlash option, which I'll gladly take. In a few days I'll try and get some of my own similar test footage up for you to analyze because you know much more about this than me. If you're never seeing this in your own footage then obviously it's just my lack of shooting knowledge at this point, which also gives me hope, ha! Thanks again.
 
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Buck Forester said:
Stevet, thanks for the Vimeo link pan. That link shows that the panning image remains reasonably sharper than what I'm seeing with my EX1. It sharpens a tad more when it stops motion, but the lettering and objects still remain acceptably sharp to my eye. When I do this same thing with my EX1 the sharpness drops much more.
Click to expand...

Not on mine.
I see about the same drop. The only difference is the EX1 looks so much sharper to start with, this may be driving what you're seeing.

If you're PC and display were not adding to this difference, you would not see a difference pausing on the frame at all.
 
I see about the same drop. The only difference is the EX1 looks so much sharper to start with, this may be driving what you're seeing.
Click to expand...

This has crossed my mine too... the EX1 is so incredibly sharp while still, at such a high resolution, that it may simply be magnifying my pereception of loss of sharpness with horizontal motion.
 
Buck Forester said:
This has crossed my mine too... the EX1 is so incredibly sharp while still, at such a high resolution, that it may simply be magnifying my pereception of loss of sharpness with horizontal motion.
Click to expand...


True.

If this question were to do with a slowed response time with the EX, why would faster frame rates show less blur, as they should.

We will dig to the bottom of this, but this was brought up extensively eight months ago. What came out of it was visually there is no rez loss.
Look through ALL of the link I provided above.

A good test may be to use a JVC HD100 which offers a full raster 1280x720 and compare the EX motion at 720.
Yes, I know the JVC is HDV, but we're not talking fast pans, but moderate.
We could also use the HVX200 as Adam mentioned.

I do know both the HD100 and EX1 offer a higher detail image than the HVX200, so you may not see as great a difference. It should be close though.
 
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Hey Stevet, I still haven't had time to do exhaustive testing, but I did hook up my test shooting of the bookshelf pans directly to my HDTV, which is a non-LCD Sony 55" DLP hdtv. The results were similar in viewing. Shooting 1080 60i was the best for motion, quite smooth, the text remained sharp on the books. The next best was 720 60p, almost as good as 60i. All others were not good at all. I had my wife view it with me and she couldn't watch the tv for more than a few seconds because the slightly blurred text was hard on her eyes.

Maybe I should just stick with shooting 60i? Is 1080 60i okay for broadcast and making DVDs? I've just been shooting 1080/30p because it seems like everyone prefers progressive for some reason.

I'm SO curious if shooting 1080/30p at 100 mbps long gop with the NanoFlash and/or XDR will alleviate these motion blurs; or using it to shoot I-frame will help. What I'm seeing is definitely there on every output device I've used so far.
 
Buck, I know you're hooking the EX to your monitor, but if you own Vegas or some other prgram that allows you to make quick BluRay on standard DVDs, try capturing and playing back for comparison.

Oddly, I can't hit it on the head why, but the EX hooked directly to my plasma verses watching the same footage from my BluRay (PS3) looks different. The Bluray looks better.

The odd thing, is my JVC HD100 did the same thing when using the component output.
The HD100 motion had more judder using the component out on the camera. I can't remember why, but it was either Barry or Adam Wilt (somebody elese?) that mentioned somenthing about the cadence when using the video out on the camera.

Here's more on this. Unfortunately Alisters comparision videos are now gone. I remembered they showed no motion differences with the EX1 compared to the the HD100 and F350.

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/sony-xdc...robing-flicker-effect-when-panning-24p-8.html
 
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Buck Forester said:
=Maybe I should just stick with shooting 60i? Is 1080 60i okay for broadcast and making DVDs? I've just been shooting 1080/30p because it seems like everyone prefers progressive for some reason.
Click to expand...

Buck, the broadcast HD standard (rec.709) specifies 1080i in the standard. You are shooting motion subjects for TV. Why WOULDN'T you shoot interlaced? HD broadcast now for sports is mostly interlaced. It allows for increased sharpness, as well as increased light gathering. You get back a full F-Stop shooting interlaced.

So shoot 60i, use a 180 degree shutter, and you should be AWFULLY happy with what you get.

If you aren't making movies, why are you shooting like you are?
 
PerroneFord said:
Buck, the broadcast HD standard (rec.709) specifies 1080i in the standard. You are shooting motion subjects for TV. Why WOULDN'T you shoot interlaced? HD broadcast now for sports is mostly interlaced. It allows for increased sharpness, as well as increased light gathering. You get back a full F-Stop shooting interlaced.

So shoot 60i, use a 180 degree shutter, and you should be AWFULLY happy with what you get.

If you aren't making movies, why are you shooting like you are?
Click to expand...

Perrone, good question, ha! I'm not making movies nor have any plans to make movies. I reeeeally don't like 24p at all. I do like the look of 1080/30p vs 1080/60i, minus the horizontal motion. All other motion is fine for me at 1080/30p, following subjects, it's only the danged horizontal pans with a close up stationary subject. My style of shooting will require this though, because just like my still 'wilderness' photography, I like to get a low perspective with a strong foreground component (grasses, flowers, log, etc.) with a sweeping scenic vista. With video I want to do this with dolly and track and slowly move to the side to add drama, with everything razor sharp. Or make slow, cinematic jib moves. So this motion sharpness in these conditions is mandatory for me, but in other situations I'm pleased with the motion of the EX1.

But to be honest the only reason I'm shooting 1080/30p is complete ignorance of what's best for which applications. I have no idea yet. I'm just shooting. The Vortex DVD guy said he prefers 1080/30p so that's just what I've been shooting. My intended markets will be DVD/Blu-Ray, web, and broadcast. I have all the fancy editing equipment and haven't even opened FCP yet, ha! That's my next project. I'm just now getting quality time to do this stuff.
 
Buck, do you have a PS3, or a BluRay player?

The PS3 is able to play around 30 minutes of BluRay HD on a regular DVD.
You can burn the BluRay "DVD" with Sony Vegas 8.0b or later.

If you have a PS3. I can send you three different DVDs of some freaking really boring pan tests I did today.

It was boring pan shots at different framerates and shutters rates of a cluttered kitchen table where my wife does her scrapbooking. lol..

I shot (various shutter speeds mentioned on the audio track) at: 1080 24P, 30P, 1080i and
720 60P

I just watched the 720 60P with three seperate videos at 1/60, 1/120, and 1/500.

Even the 1/60 blows away anything I've seen using my NLE system which has the DELL 2405 24" 1920x1080 monitor and my Dell laptop. There's none of the "soft pan then pause and it goes sharp" stuff that has been seen viewing the EX1 LCD and other PC LCD monitoring systems.

Even viewing the live monitor output on the EX1 via BlackMagic DVI>HDLINK HDMI to the 2405 monitor, pans look a bit soft. Also, I may be wrong, but I thought I remembered even using the component output pan looked a bit odd, even to my plama. I'd like for someone to offer a reason for this. Oddly, my JVC HD100 did the same dang thing. Now, I understand why this is happening with computer type LCD displays, but with the plasma, i'm not sure. Very odd. The odd thing is burn the videos to BluRay or DVD and the motion from the plasma is great.

But, like I've mentioned, I do not see any of these issues when mastering DVDs and BluRay or other post production formats played back on HDTV systems.

Bottom line, DO NOT TRUST motion viewing your XDCAM footage on your PC.

Buck, let me know if you want me to send you these. I know you are concerned with what you've seen, but I'm sure after watching these quasi BluRay DVDs (on your PS3), you're understand the difference.

Although, these samples are boring as hell, it will show you that there is NO additioning blurring other than motion blur when using slower frame rates and/shutter speeds.

The 720 60P is smooth as I've seen any thing on HDTV.

My 1080 60i sample disk is rendering right now, then I'll render the 1080 24P. Oddly, I believe that BluRay does not support 30P, so I won't have this available.
 
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Buck, here's my best take at trying to solve this problem. The issue in testing any blur caused by codec or motion blur is that the features in the frame that you're watching are moving across the frame, so in the ideal world we could subtract just the screen motion and thereby remove all the issues with display technology, LCD lag, etc.

So here's my test;

http://ftp.datausa.com/imageshoppe/outgoing/EX1/TARGET_24fps180shutterPIP.mov (26megs, save as).

First, I shot a slow pan across a focus target, pausing ever so often then continuing the pan. EX1 native 35Mb/sec codec, 24fps and 1/48 shutter (ie normal motion signature for feature film work).

Next I motion stabilized the focus target in After Effects. This effectively "pins" the tracked subject in screen space.

Finally, I made a final movie that has the screen target at 1:1 original size and a small reference version of the full scene. You can then keep your eye on the target and watch the reference thumbnail for cues as to when there's actual motion and when there's a pause in the pan.

My feeling after doing this is that there is no blurring beyond what normal motion blur would create. I feel that everything you're seeing is a result of the screen technology (LAG), or some strange combinations of the cameras settings. The bottom line is that you've never had access to such a sharp original video source, and the nature shows you've been watching on TV, while even in HD, are still too far away from the originals to evaluate to the same degree as you can with this camera directly hooked up to a 1080p monitor.

As to the codec, well, on the other forum on your same thread I show that the FlashXDR can reduce the effect of macroblocking and color smear significantly on fast motion, and in a situation with the shutter set so high as to create perfectly sharp images even with wild pans... this test here is more to the question of if the EX1 has some issue with image processing motion. I don't feel that it does.

My two cents, but with a bit of actual work effort to adjust for inflation and general economic chaos. :)

Regards,

Jim Arthurs
 
Jim, what can I say... This is excellent man.
That was an excellent idea to motion stabilize the focus target and have a visual cue on when the pan starts and stops.

If this does not put this to rest, nothing will. Over the years, I can say I've learned not to trust computer displays with my videos.

Also, if you're up for it, hookup the EX1 via component, or SDI>DVI (HDMI) and let me know what you think about motion using the live outputs. Oddly, my plasma set had more motion smear than normal. But, if I render it to a BluRay or DVD and play it back from a PS3 to the plasma, the motion is excellent. Am I seeing things or what? I'm seeing a difference, that's for sure. Maybe I need to look again...??
 
Nice work, Jim. Thanks for showing us that the video does not blur. They should hire you on Myth Busters ;-)

Stevet mentioned in his post above that he sees some softness when watching footage directly from the camera, but not when he burns it to DVD. Any idea why this may be?

Also, what are your thoughts on the "myth" that you can't get the color on the EX1 to look like that on the Panasonic cameras?
 
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