FIREPROOF - The new film from Sherwood Pictures

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CallaghanFilms said:
There is a difference with coating entertainment (which films are) with religious agendas. As we have been saying, uplifting/motivating films are great (they are amongst my all-time favs)...but they can be done (and done extremely well) without tacking on the "born again" agenda. Just look at Hudson's list, or better yet, look at the Bishops' list. They both show that there are countless uplifting "moral" stories to be told that can touch every heart in the audience, not a select few.

:beer:
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Any film which pushes an idea has an "agenda." Not sure why religious films should be singled out as somehow . . . what? Out of bounds? Inappropriate?

If it's not your bag, don't go so see it. :huh: Seems like the simplest solution to me. :beer:

(Also, you steal some bases by equating "religious" or even "Christian" with "born again," and I also think "select few" rather underestimates most audiences, given general demographic data.)

Anyway, we're kind of skirting the edge of one or two of the Ps here.
 
David Jimerson said:
(Also, you steal some bases by equating "religious" or even "Christian" with "born again," and I also think "select few" rather underestimates most audiences, given general demographic data.)
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If my labeling a Kirk Cameron film that is stealing bases, then just call me Rickey Henderson.:evil: I didn't mean any offense to anyone...just calling a spade a spade.

Lookit, of course these filmmakers can market to whatever niche group they want (as a proud capitalist, I say, "more power to 'em"). My point is that they are preaching to their own choir. If their goals are just that, and are comparatively small...this is a great business plan (keep on truckin'; if it ain't broke, don't fix it; insert favorite cliché here.) If, on the other hand, they want their message of hope, peace, faith, whatever to reach a more vast audience, this ain't the right approach.


EDIT:

Again, I LOVE inspiring, feel-good films very much. What I don't care for is the proselytizing.

:beer:
 
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CallaghanFilms said:
Lookit, of course these filmmakers can market to whatever niche group they want (as a proud capitalist, I say, "more power to 'em"). My point is that they are preaching to their own choir. If their goals are just that, and are comparatively small...this is a great business plan (keep on truckin'; if it ain't broke, don't fix it; insert favorite cliché here.) If, on the other hand, they want their message of hope, peace, faith, whatever to reach a more vast audience, this ain't the right approach.
:beer:
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In some ways I'd say you're right and in some ways I'd say your wrong. The average Athiest or Non-Religious person has built up so many walls that a simple movie will not change their perspective anyway - just as watching the very Athiest Family Guy does not motivate me to give up my faith. What it does do is work with those teetering on the edge - who don't really know or don't have feelings one way or the other.

Personally I have a problem with most Christian based films simply because they tend not to be that entertaining. Although, I do plan to do my own, much later in my career. Most of them tend to be rich dramas, but lack punch because the struggle is usually based on a person waiting for God to do something. But if a person really reads the Bible and understands it, they would know God only makes a move towards you when He knows you're at the end of your rope, but most of the time you have to at least move an inch, a foot, one step towards Him or His goals for your life. A great Christian Film to me is the "Count of Monte Cristo". A Christian man with a small life, ends up being punished for something he didn't do. But he recieves 100 fold of a blessing, although he doesn't see it until the end. It's a much better depiction because it's more Human based.
 
Simon Höfer said:
I have to slightly disagree. For every "American Pie" there should be a film with a good message, but without being a Christian film.

Example:
Line from the film:
"You gotta beg god to teach you how to be a good husband."

I don't need no god to be a good husband, and I am sure there are a lot of other people that think the same.

How about: "You have to learn how to be a good husband." The story would go similar, but without the preachyness, cheesyness and more open to a bigger audience, but still focusing on the marriage and on being a good human. And beeing a good human should be the goal instead of cramming your beliefs down someone elses throat.

It's not hollywood that keeps out christian films/filmmakers. It's the films itself. You can't make christian/preachy films without stepping on alot of toes and therefore alot of doors remain closed. But you can make a film with a good message, which is still in accordance with christian beliefs, without beeing preachy and then alot of doors will open and then you can reach those "80% christians".
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Wow I should have been in this thread earlier. I love a good debate!

Many Christian films (to me) are bad for the same reasons most movies are bad - delivery of the subject matter. I'll admit that most Christian films are preachy, but I believe while done in good "faith" the problem really has more to do with the filmmaker than the movie.

One of the biggest problems is the G-rated factor. Most Christian films are rated G or PG because for some reason people think that violence/ hate/ $sex / drugs, etc shouldn't be shown in Christian Films. When the "Passion of the Christ" was in itself rated R. Bottom line the Bible is X-Rated. Everything from cussing to adultery to murder is shown just how it is. GOD doesn't sugar coat anything - yet many Christians do.

It's like the addage - you can't have Heaven without Hell. You have to show the bad to emphasize the good.

I'm sure when I get around to my set of "Christian based films" that I want to do - I'll have a few Christians to snub their noses at me searching for Hallmark type films, but that is not realistic to me in any way or fashion.
 
Jason Miller said:
If you are a Christian you have two choises, either ignore your faith when you make your films, and get respect in the industy, or make films that express your love for Christ and be ok with it, cause its all you'll be allowed to do. I'm pretty sure I'm taking the second path. making my first Christian film next month.
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Wow! I guess it's good that I'm Black. A good 40% of Black movies have some sort of Christian overtone. I guess it's cause most of us are Christian and we don't have a problem with it because it's so inner-twined with our culture.

But I don't think that people shun Christian films, I think people shun the hate that is masked by so called Christians that hate everyone for not being Christian. To me walking with Christ means you have to "pick up your cross" and follow him. Giving yourself over to people to hate you and at the same time, you must at least love and respect them (doesn't mean you have to like them or hang out with them.)

It's kinda like this: Many people which are drawn into any group (Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, NRA, KKK, Black Panters, etc) generally come in for some desire to belong. Many times the desire to belong is also a way to lash out against those who don't belong or are different. Recently a "Christian man" went into a Church that believed in all religions and just started shooting. Right in the middle of a bunch of kids performing. Is this man Christian?

A True Christian will walk in love and help anyone and everyone they can, in hopes that they will see Christ in them or through them. Unfortunately Christians use the faith to distance themsevles from the very people they are supposed to be helping. They are shedding "no light" behind closed doors.

Jesus talked about being the "Light of the World." He told his followers to go out, teach, help, pray for people. He hung out with the low life people of his time - politicians, prostitutes, the elderly, the sick, the mentally ill. Today many Christans would act no differently than the "Religious Jews" of his time because Jesus wouldn't hang out with them or teach them. He'd be talking to the pimps, the guys on Wall Street, the KKK, the people who are not good. He's a light to the darkness. Unfortunately most Christians are just the light to the light.
 
CallaghanFilms said:
If, on the other hand, they want their message of hope, peace, faith, whatever to reach a more vast audience, this ain't the right approach.
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I disagree on many levels. Facing the Giants their last film followed the exact same pattern and in my opinion involved even more straightup gospel than Fireproof has, and it did well at the box office, was a #1 DVD for quite some time (was in the top 100 DVD's of 2007 on Amazon.com), and pretty much every Christian household has seen it and recommended it to family and friends. Thousands of people have given professions of faith after seeing the film. Many people have seen the film that aren't Christians.

There's a fine line between putting in the film what really needs to be there to help reach the viewer, and dulling it down so they'll actually go see it. Unfortunately most would prefer the latter and that can become dangerous resulting in a lot of watered down Christian films that in the end present a "faith" but not Jesus. Faith in what? The toaster on your kitchen table? Say the word JESUS...so what if its not what most want to hear.

You can't tailor make a Christian film with evangelistic qualities to fit the worlds acceptance. Because the world and general people will reject what's spoken. Not hate it necessarily (although some would), but just end up at the usual "well what works for you is what works for you...." If someone watches a Christian film (with a goal of reaching the viewer) that I made and in the end says "wow what a great story," but I don't hear something like "I need to think about some things," then I consider my entire effort in creating the film a failure. I'm not here to provoke thought, anyone can do that, I'm here with the Christian films that I want to make who's sole purpose is to reach the unbeliever, and edify the current believer. Not everyones cup of tea but I got my own flavor.
 
Here I'd disagree with Kyle... I believe that the sort of Christian films that Facing the Giants, and Fireproof are are strictly targeted and aimed at the Christian community at large, not unbelievers at all...
 
as an "unbeliever" I will never believe because a film/movie/tv show/play or anything else preaches to me. In fact, it makes me hate the product more. So, most likely others will feel the same way, if not most of us.
 
Brandon Rice said:
Here I'd disagree with Kyle... I believe that the sort of Christian films that Facing the Giants, and Fireproof are are strictly targeted and aimed at the Christian community at large, not unbelievers at all...
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Mostly yes, there is more for the Christian team than for the non....but if they were meant to be 100% targeted towards Christians, the gospel wouldn't have been so clearly presented.
 
Brandon Rice said:
Here I'd disagree with Kyle... I believe that the sort of Christian films that Facing the Giants, and Fireproof are are strictly targeted and aimed at the Christian community at large, not unbelievers at all...
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Agreed. That's what it is about. However, I don't think a Christian movie needs to be preachy to their target audience. Because, they already are Christians! I think that's the point here.
 
Still they try and cover both bases, nothing wrong with that.

The Kendricks put the gospel in their film regardless of its target because they aren't 100% sure who will see it. If they extracted the Gospel from FTG and kept only the edifying Christianese...then the professions of faith they received probably wouldn't have happened and even if they aren't sure of that...thats enough to have them keep it in the next film.
 
By the way, I'm sure someone is thinking "well it would've been a better film..." If you were to ask the Kendricks of whether or not they would rather have a better film, or a better tool to reach others for Christ, I'm sure you can guess which they would pick. In the end, they are using their films for ministry. Telling a great story yes, that is part of the fun and the journey of making a film, but after all that is over...they want to reach their audience with the message of Jesus. That will always be their main priority, in life or in their films.
 
Evan S said:
as an "unbeliever" I will never believe because a film/movie/tv show/play or anything else preaches to me. In fact, it makes me hate the product more. So, most likely others will feel the same way, if not most of us.
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I don't think a person who has strong beliefs can be changed over that quickly anyway. If th epurpose of the movie is to preach, let it preach. Do we beat up on Porn because the people are naked and having $ex?

If a filmmaker wants a certain thing, I don't see anything wrong with them doing it. Who is to say what is right or wrong if the filmmaker is happy. It's one of the reasons why I want to wait to do many of the ideas I have, because once I have enough money to do what I want and I want to drop a "Fireproof" type movie - I won't care if it makes no money at all. The way I see it, people spend millions on houses they never visit or cars they never drive. I'll make movies that I want to make and no one can tell me that I can't or Censor my material.
 
I'll also say something about what was mentioned earlier in this thread (I'm currently reading all the posts, so hope this doesn't mess up the rules) . someone said 80% of American's are Christians. That's not really true. 80% may claim Christianity but a much smaller number are Christians. I think this is importiant for the film-side because it illustrates a compounded reason why Christian movies have a hard time.

I'd make the argument that many Christian based films are much more targeted than simply for the Christians. And make the fact that while if asked a person will say "Hey I'm Christian" but when you ask them if they were "born again" they'd probably say no, ask them if they've read the Bible, "they'd probably say no, etc." I can claim anything. I can say one thing in a poll, but that doesn't mean that's how I act and truly believe.
 
ok everyone, let's STOP talking about this... let's stop talking about the type of film and just focus on the one film this thread is about, OK.
 
After this weekend I quit keeping up with this thread. I've since skimmed through some of the subsequent posts.

I'd just like to add that films like Fireproof, Facing the Giants, Left Behind, etc are created by people who do actually expect them to be targeted to the non-christians and fully expect those audiences to surrender their life to Christ after viewing the film.

I, as an extremely devout protestant Christian, believe this is the wrong approach. I think when making these type of films it is important to understand that the majority of the people who will watch them willingly are principally from the group that attend church on a weekly basis and who don't just say they believe in God (which is how we get the 80% number), but are actually practicing, professing Christians (protestant and catholic).

Yes, there are those who will watch these films and will subsequently give their life to Christ (I know because I witnessed it within my own extended family as a result of FTG), but this is not because a film radically transformed their view of the world. Rather, it is a result of someone who is already leaning towards that life, they already have had multiple experiences that have turned their face toward a Christian life and the film is just one more experience in that direction. It speaks to what is already going on in their heart and mind.

But that said, these films regardless of what the filmmaker may actually intend, are really targeted at the church. So, whether the preachiness is turned down or not is really not that critical, because the ones who are excited to see the film are not bothered by it and the ones who are bothered by it won't see it even if the preachiness is turned down several notches.

What DOES need to change is the lack of quality that is presented in these films. Every day we see films here on this very site created by individuals, or small crews, for little to no money and they are fantastic. So it's not the money that is the issue. Yes, more money means better equipment, more talent, etc, but it's not the be all, end all of the problem. The foremost issue in all christian films to date is the script.

Story is king ... if you have a weak story, you have a bad film, even if it's directed by a top A-list director and is fully cast by all A-list actors giving the performance of a lifetime. If the story is weak, if the dialog is poorly constructed, you've just lost your audience.

And I've said it before and I'll probably say it a million times more before I die. When Jesus spoke with the religious people He referenced the scriptures and spoke more plainly, but when He spoke with those who did not consider themselves religious He spoke in parables. He taught the same truths, but He used different approaches. The parables were designed to reference life events which the listeners would have experienced on nearly a daily basis. He made the scripture relevant by equating it to the life experiences of those He was speaking with.
 
Jason Miller said:
The Chronicles of Narnia: The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe--------absolutly not Christian
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Where are you getting your facts from? This movie IS Christian! The Lion represents Jesus and his sacrifice for the children and his people. The Witch is the devil. Just because it has Witch in the title doesn't make it Wicca.
 
Actually, while the Chronicles of Narnia are allegorical of the Christian story, CS Lewis said in later years that he never intended that. He simply wanted to write a children's series that was fantastical.

It was simply a matter of his own personal world view, influenced by his faith, that fashioned the content of the story into such a beautiful allegorical picture. And that is something we, the Christian story tellers, need to consider when crafting our own stories. Just tell a great story and trust your inner world view to guide the fashion in which it is told.
 
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