Rubbersquare
Well-known member
#4 is apparently a NO for the 5D2.
and what about
#10. shoots 24fps ... Red: yes - 5D2: no
and what about
#10. shoots 24fps ... Red: yes - 5D2: no
From Vincent Laforet: If you want 24p on the 5D MKII...
- Thread starter f64manray
- Start date
Rubbersquare
Well-known member
but, i do agree on the price. i can "learn" with the 5D2. i can rent a Red.
Red: yes?
When I see a RED rented along with hiring a DIT to make sure it works well, I'm not sure the "easy to use" answer for RED is a "yes".
John Sandel
Active member
From what I've read, the manual controls for exposure, ISO & shutter speed on the 5D2 are roughly comparable to those on the D90 (thanks, Kholi). I.e., they're controllable, to a frustratingly small degree, and the user interface is badly hobbled, but both cameras have some manual control.
Same deal here. The Red may be dauntingly complicated, but its controls are of professional grade. Hence it's easier to use than the 5D2, because there's far less guesswork.
I'm being provocative to make a point about Kholi's gloss on the Red. Comparing that to Nikon's D90 or Canon's 5D2 is like comparing apples to oranges—both are intended for greatly different end users.
The salient quality they share is their potential facility in the hands of someone willing to master the tool. Choose your weapon.
Your mistakes are listed in RED, maybes in YELLOW.
How much money will you make back (ROI) from a 5D MKII Shooting video? How many people will pay you to come out with a 5D? How much value will the 5D MKII retain on resale? How will your actors respond to a 5D MKII? How will your investors respond to a 5D MKII? And my favorite...
How much money did you waste on set trying to lock down great exposure and reshoots because it just doesn't look right? Consider that, in our business? Time = Money.
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for low cost. But, let's compare apples to apples, D90's to MkII's, and not Apples to Steak.
I'm just sayin'.
John Sandel
Active member
You're making me hungry, K.
I'm basing my judgement of the 5D2's manual controllability (#4) on what I've read. It sounds comparable to what you reported with the D90, but of course none of us knows for sure. I'll grant it's a semantic choice to call your methods "manual control"—I'm distinguishing it from automatic control. You & some others have reported better success than I'd expect you'd have with an all-automatic camera.
If I'm justified, then, in describing the 5D2's controls as manual, whether the effects are repeatable (#5) isn't up to the machine, but to the photographer. That just requires creativity and diligence, as you once noted.
Success (#6) with those effects is subjective. I wasn't sure why you said "repeatable successful results," since repeated unsuccessful attempts are undesirable. But I went with it for the purposes of defining how the 5D2, e.g., is very likely as useful as the Red (or any other camera), even though it costs so much less.
I'm basing my judgement of the 5D2's manual controllability (#4) on what I've read. It sounds comparable to what you reported with the D90, but of course none of us knows for sure. I'll grant it's a semantic choice to call your methods "manual control"—I'm distinguishing it from automatic control. You & some others have reported better success than I'd expect you'd have with an all-automatic camera.
If I'm justified, then, in describing the 5D2's controls as manual, whether the effects are repeatable (#5) isn't up to the machine, but to the photographer. That just requires creativity and diligence, as you once noted.
Success (#6) with those effects is subjective. I wasn't sure why you said "repeatable successful results," since repeated unsuccessful attempts are undesirable. But I went with it for the purposes of defining how the 5D2, e.g., is very likely as useful as the Red (or any other camera), even though it costs so much less.
John Sandel
Active member
BTW, it's precisely because time is expensive that I hope that getting handy with the 5D2 will reduce my lighting time. So, to answer: yes, I considered it.
Luis Caffesse
Admin
Don't forget to throw codec and compression into that list as well.
Seems unfair to make the comparison without mentioning the huge advantage of shooting Redcode Raw.
While you're at it you should probably add variable frame rates and on board audio recording quality to the list.
But, I'm with Kholi - apples to steaks...
Seems unfair to make the comparison without mentioning the huge advantage of shooting Redcode Raw.
While you're at it you should probably add variable frame rates and on board audio recording quality to the list.
But, I'm with Kholi - apples to steaks...
John Sandel
Active member
I sorry I'm not being clear. The comparison wasn't my idea—I'm just responding to it:
Chris_TC: What if I don't want 1/30th? [I.e., on the 5D2.]
f64manray: "Then I guess you clould pay $30,000 for a for Red One with less low light capability."
Kholi: "You mean 23k for a working dedicated video acquisition system with manual controls for repeatable successful results."
That implies the 5D2 is less useful by comparison, but both are useful tools.
It's such a small point, but an important one: saying the cameras are comparable isn't the same as saying they're equal. In this case, I don't think they are equal. But all tools can & should be compared on their fitness for a specific job.
I'm just sayin.
Chris_TC: What if I don't want 1/30th? [I.e., on the 5D2.]
f64manray: "Then I guess you clould pay $30,000 for a for Red One with less low light capability."
Kholi: "You mean 23k for a working dedicated video acquisition system with manual controls for repeatable successful results."
That implies the 5D2 is less useful by comparison, but both are useful tools.
It's such a small point, but an important one: saying the cameras are comparable isn't the same as saying they're equal. In this case, I don't think they are equal. But all tools can & should be compared on their fitness for a specific job.
I'm just sayin.
Forgot about this! And, I always forget. This is also another major factor. You're stuck with H.264's compression. That's why I don't think the 5D is much better than a 720p image.
With RED, I've got the raw footage and I can Log and Transfer to some delicious 2k HQ ProRes for smaller projects.
BLUESPIDER
DVXuser Ninja
you guys seriously think Canon is going to do 24p ,etc when they already have their Canon HD cameras? It's almost like Panasonic going hey, let's not let consumers buy the $5k HVX200 but buy our $1000 DSLR and get the same results. Good luck. I'm sticking with my Sony Hi8. 
Luis Caffesse
Admin
Fair enough, good points.
Though you have to admit - at a certain point the comparison becomes a bit laughable.
I mean, in this case, other than the sensor size and removable lenses - these cameras really have nothing in common.
Canon 5D MKII, $2,699. Shooting in Times Square with a 35mm full size sensor with incredible lowlight ability without a permit, priceless.
Also, apples are good for you. Steak is bad, even though you think you prefer steak. ;-)
Here is Vincent's latest reply to a query about the 5D MKII exposure controls:
JRW - and YANG -
first of all - DON’T BUY OR NOT BUY the camera based on my recommendation - I am not a Canon rep …. remember: I had no manual, details are still murky - and I haven’t had a chance to see the camera let alone use it since that weekend…
With that said:
I spoke w/ Chuck - as it is indeed essential that we do get this crystal clear. To my understanding and this is “key” -it’s my understanding and not something I have been able to try myself…- everything I have said is true - but let’s re-iterate:
You cannot set the exposure, aperture, and ISO manually in any video mode or in the “M” mode - period.
HOWEVER: you can effectively have the camera do this by locking the exposure by using the “*” button … and it’s really not that difficult at all.
While you can’t set everything manually (agree this is a professional need - we all know it) you can do the following: set it to any mode - I personally set it to Aperture priority mode - set it to f2 or f2.8 - and then turned on live view…
The aperture starts at f2 therefore, the camera then picks a shutter speed (between 1/30th and 1/125th) and then sets the ISO automatically… once you hit the “*” button - those settings are LOCKED in… the key point here is: that by pointing it to a darker or lighter area - you can “force” the shutter speed and/or ISO to go in the direction you want it to… note: I never had to do this once during my filming of “Reverie” - but it’s at least possible - in case you want to do something real funky…
So… you can (through a work around) lock the exposure down to your desired settings… and still use the EV +/- dial in the back to correct up or down from that locked starting point as you shoot…(if you wish)
Granted having it all “manual” would be key. But don’t forget - this is a first gen camera… it doesn’t have all of the “pro” bells and whistles..
Also take into account - that the entire reverie movie was shot WITHOUT the “*” exposure lock… and only on the Empire State tight shot do you see that as I panned won - camera closed the exposure down… so it’s pretty dead on to start with and you can easily open the camera up or down to over or underex with the back control dial…
So for me it works. Not perfect - but very very well. Make sense?
there is an easy workaround - and I think it should assuage your and everyone’s concerns… one of the key things is to be able to “lock in” an exposure setting - so that it doesn’t change (on it’s own) as you shoot - THIS can be done - albeit with a workaround as opposed to dialing in the exposure settings on your own.
Also, apples are good for you. Steak is bad, even though you think you prefer steak. ;-)
Here is Vincent's latest reply to a query about the 5D MKII exposure controls:
JRW - and YANG -
first of all - DON’T BUY OR NOT BUY the camera based on my recommendation - I am not a Canon rep …. remember: I had no manual, details are still murky - and I haven’t had a chance to see the camera let alone use it since that weekend…
With that said:
I spoke w/ Chuck - as it is indeed essential that we do get this crystal clear. To my understanding and this is “key” -it’s my understanding and not something I have been able to try myself…- everything I have said is true - but let’s re-iterate:
You cannot set the exposure, aperture, and ISO manually in any video mode or in the “M” mode - period.
HOWEVER: you can effectively have the camera do this by locking the exposure by using the “*” button … and it’s really not that difficult at all.
While you can’t set everything manually (agree this is a professional need - we all know it) you can do the following: set it to any mode - I personally set it to Aperture priority mode - set it to f2 or f2.8 - and then turned on live view…
The aperture starts at f2 therefore, the camera then picks a shutter speed (between 1/30th and 1/125th) and then sets the ISO automatically… once you hit the “*” button - those settings are LOCKED in… the key point here is: that by pointing it to a darker or lighter area - you can “force” the shutter speed and/or ISO to go in the direction you want it to… note: I never had to do this once during my filming of “Reverie” - but it’s at least possible - in case you want to do something real funky…
So… you can (through a work around) lock the exposure down to your desired settings… and still use the EV +/- dial in the back to correct up or down from that locked starting point as you shoot…(if you wish)
Granted having it all “manual” would be key. But don’t forget - this is a first gen camera… it doesn’t have all of the “pro” bells and whistles..
Also take into account - that the entire reverie movie was shot WITHOUT the “*” exposure lock… and only on the Empire State tight shot do you see that as I panned won - camera closed the exposure down… so it’s pretty dead on to start with and you can easily open the camera up or down to over or underex with the back control dial…
So for me it works. Not perfect - but very very well. Make sense?
there is an easy workaround - and I think it should assuage your and everyone’s concerns… one of the key things is to be able to “lock in” an exposure setting - so that it doesn’t change (on it’s own) as you shoot - THIS can be done - albeit with a workaround as opposed to dialing in the exposure settings on your own.
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Rubbersquare
Well-known member
didn't chuck whatshisname (it's early) specifically say you CANNOT set aperture or shutter priority for movie mode? i can't dredge all the way through these threads again. that was something i had read on vincent's blog and felt better about the camera. then chuck said, "nope" and i was torn. why can't they release a manual online?
John Sandel
Active member
Agreed. I'd rather have one Red than 7.6 dSLRs of any quality. But I'll probably graduate to something like Ikonoskop's A-Cam first.
ESTEBEVERDE
Veteran
Bottom line is the Camera needs full manual control.
Canon needs to stop F'n around.
Canon needs to stop F'n around.
ESTEBEVERDE
Veteran
I would of course love to see the images first.
1'000 requests needed by sun oct 5!!!
1'000 requests needed by sun oct 5!!!
act now and say what you want!
..1'000 requests needed by sun, oct 5!!!
1'000 requests needed by sun oct 5!!!
act now and say what you want!
..1'000 requests needed by sun, oct 5!!!
ESTEBEVERDE
Veteran
24p is on the way out!
The only reason we really need various frame rates on this camera is to please the old timers who want, no, have to have that 24p flicker look.
Fair enough. No problem with intermediate transitions.
What the camera really needs though is full manual controls.
The only reason we really need various frame rates on this camera is to please the old timers who want, no, have to have that 24p flicker look.
Fair enough. No problem with intermediate transitions.
What the camera really needs though is full manual controls.