ESTEBEVERDE
Veteran
Right.
But it's important to realize how accomplished Vincent is in the visual arts in the first place.
I think the same thing can be said about Stephen Dempsey.
5DII DOES 1080P footage!!!!!!
- Thread starter hungrych
- Start date
Right.
But it's important to realize how accomplished Vincent is in the visual arts in the first place.
I think the same thing can be said about Stephen Dempsey.
I believe Laforet has stated that he used 1600 ISO for Reverie. It looks very clean. In the still photography arena, photographers that have used the 5D MKII have been simply blown away at the performance at 3200 and 6400 ISO. This camera's sensor is a game changer even in the still arena. Again, if you can see it, it appears the MKII can shoot it from all the reports and very cleanly at that. We shall see.
I think Red is wise to wait until November before announcing specs on Scarlet. They should get their hands on a MKII just to be sure before announcing Scarlet specs.
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I'm sure this doesn't apply to any of the posters here, but one thing that strikes me about videographers with no photographic training is their complete lack of understanding about composition and even the ability to recognize what good lighting is.
I think photograpic training and experience should be a prerequisite before your even allowed to film anything that moves. Each and every damn shot in a scene should be a well composed and lit photograph, and not just stepping stone to the next shot. but I digress...
ESTEBEVERDE
Veteran
I hear your point and position but I don't know.
I started out in Photography as a Journalist (was and still am nothing more than a hack) and I have always loved to film.
Thing is, they are both seemingly virtually the same but alas they are not.
Composition is key in both but in moving pictures they do move and the composition indeed tells a story as one frame flows into the next.
With that said, still photography, graphic arts, or most artistic medium is an excellent skill and foundation for motion...
I started out in Photography as a Journalist (was and still am nothing more than a hack) and I have always loved to film.
Thing is, they are both seemingly virtually the same but alas they are not.
Composition is key in both but in moving pictures they do move and the composition indeed tells a story as one frame flows into the next.
With that said, still photography, graphic arts, or most artistic medium is an excellent skill and foundation for motion...
walnutcrunch
Well-known member
True, but you are underselling story. Just because you can make a pretty single frame that tells a story there is no guarantee that you can string a bunch of those stills together to make a compelling motion story.
Still photographers should have mandatory story testing and training (but really you have it or you don't) before being allowed to shoot at more than 6fps bursts. Then it would be even and there would be nothing but glorious image and story emanating from every pro and semi-pro camera on earth.
John Sandel
Active member
Hmm. Much as I'd like to join the discussion about the virtues of storytelling &c, I want to interrupt with this technical note, from among the latest of the 760+ replies, at V.Laforet's blog:
"One of the visitors of Photokina 2008 Trade Show in Cologne reported in a well known German Canon forum today (http://www.dforum.net/), that Canon is now actually discussing a firmware upgrade to enable 25 fps mode. Furthermore, the Canon technician, who revealed this information, confirmed, that the 25 fps can be achieved by firmware change only, no hardware modifications are required.
"Comment by Alex 09.28.08 @ 8:27 pm"
I went to the forum he linked, but my Deutsche is the only thing worser nor my English. Can anybody conversant find the post he mentions and glean any more?
"One of the visitors of Photokina 2008 Trade Show in Cologne reported in a well known German Canon forum today (http://www.dforum.net/), that Canon is now actually discussing a firmware upgrade to enable 25 fps mode. Furthermore, the Canon technician, who revealed this information, confirmed, that the 25 fps can be achieved by firmware change only, no hardware modifications are required.
"Comment by Alex 09.28.08 @ 8:27 pm"
I went to the forum he linked, but my Deutsche is the only thing worser nor my English. Can anybody conversant find the post he mentions and glean any more?
I'm not up on all the dialog in this thread..... But f64manray has a valid comment here.
I've only seen a couple of Vids on this forum that has any artistic integrity. Very few here have any clue about composition or light and most suck at both. This is a 90% amateur forum. Sure there are weekend Wedding guys here and guys that shoot lectures for a few bucks.
Most sample vids here are Vacation based..... And how many "Videographers" here make a living at shooting flowers in there backyard or shooting a feature on there cat. Story telling at it's best. If I see another picture of a Bee in a flower or runny nosed kids.... I think I gonna jam a pencil in my eye.
I'm all for the 24P thing and understand the reasons. What cracks me up is the guys that jump up and down and say 24P is only way to go. They show cat/flower/kid footage than say Vincent LaFortes film is just ok.
There is a reason why Still guys get asked to do TV commercials...... But no Videographers get asked to shoot print ads.
frisco
I've only seen a couple of Vids on this forum that has any artistic integrity. Very few here have any clue about composition or light and most suck at both. This is a 90% amateur forum. Sure there are weekend Wedding guys here and guys that shoot lectures for a few bucks.
Most sample vids here are Vacation based..... And how many "Videographers" here make a living at shooting flowers in there backyard or shooting a feature on there cat. Story telling at it's best. If I see another picture of a Bee in a flower or runny nosed kids.... I think I gonna jam a pencil in my eye.
I'm all for the 24P thing and understand the reasons. What cracks me up is the guys that jump up and down and say 24P is only way to go. They show cat/flower/kid footage than say Vincent LaFortes film is just ok.
There is a reason why Still guys get asked to do TV commercials...... But no Videographers get asked to shoot print ads.
frisco
dual
Active member
No couldn't find this post at all! I seacrhed for firmware and read through all the latest posts. Nothing.
I did find an interesting review though. As lowlight magic is on discussion here right now: A guy who had some time to play with the 5d ii said that it's low light capabilities are amazing. He said up until 1600 there is NO noise visible. And that 25000 is comparable to 1250 on the youngest 1D.
This IS impressive guys. And I totally agree on most points with f64. I don't know why some people here see professional filmmaking skills as a necessity to be "allowed" to shoot good video. Heck that's not what this forum is about.
Low light is important. True, you can push the Scarlet because it's raw, but it won't hold up against the 5D so far.
The 5D ii meets most if not all of the other needs of a pro filmmaker, so come on, stop "hating" it. It's just enough to work with it if you don't have the budget for more professional gear. The RED also "sucks" in reality compared to an Arricam for example, but it makes things absolutely possible if you know what you do.
The pricepoint to make pro filming possible was in the Arri range, then it fell to 20k $ when the RED came out and now you can do it with 3k $. No doubt about it.
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John Sandel
Active member
Dual, do you mean you couldn't find the post at Laforet's blog, or the one at the German forum?
dual
Active member
I'm talking about the one at the German forum.
Laforet's blog? hm... oh yeah, you were talking about his blog first. I looked at his latest posts and he keeps talking about "I don't know if 24p is technically possible." So no trace of the rumor you talked about.
By the way. Another thing I read in Laforets blog was: he says he shot nearly all his footage for reverie in 1600 iso and used shutter 1/15th.
Maybe he didn't realize the absurdity of this statement because he is a photographer. :huh:
Ok well, so in reality what he did is shoot at 1/30th and iso 3200. At least that's what my camera (40D) would do if I were to be in liveview mode @ iso 1600 with 1/15th. They don't go below 1/30th, but they crank up the brightness instead (brightness = iso, if I understand correctly)
Anybody tried to color correct some of the 5D "raw" footage available? Conversion to 24p anybody? How long does it really take and how bad will the images get?
John Sandel
Active member
It's hard to spot—it's buried toward the end of 800+ comments to this post:
http://blog.vincentlaforet.com/2008...lips-from-reverie-now-available-for-download/
Same thing (Canon rep saying that Canon's "actually discussing" an upgrade to 25p" & that it can be done via firmware) has been reported at Canon Rumors:
http://www.canonrumors.com/
But that may well be where it'll stay—as a rumor. I'll believe it when Canon says so on their site.
j
Veteran
It's not so much that photogs cannot shoot video, it's that photogs who transition to shooting video (or film) almost always lack the necessary storytelling skills that comes with motion video. That is why they often excel at visually interesting genres such as commercials and music videos, but fail at narrative - especially long form.
Not that they're not capable, they just are starting from the beginning with part of the skill sets.
Not that they're not capable, they just are starting from the beginning with part of the skill sets.
Tomas Riuka
Well-known member
dual
Active member
That may be so. But still I thought f64 had a good point about low light capabilities and I don't really understand the following negative comment(s) ("why are you debating serious videography concerns with the rest of us?").
I think the 5D could really make it happen (throw my A1 & adapter out). I'm sure there's a way to work with 30P. Conversion of some sort. I've done a lot of ntsc to pal conversions and despite losing some resolution it looks ok.
My point is: The 5D works for me. The lack of features you "need" to make pro movies can be worked around in my opinion.
dual
Active member
have you seen this?"some" compression
Hm... I don't understand your attachment.
Is the left one the original and the right one supposed to be a curve graded version?
I have the "raw" footage myself, exported from qt and didn't get the results you got there. Little artifacts but therefore no detail in the blacks.
Are your sources the "raw" files?
Attachments
I can't argue with that..... Very well said.
The only thing I can add to that is......Commercials and Music vids are Stories.... Just short stories. And in the case of commercials, A knowlege base of Advertising/Marketing is very helpful which most film makers never get exposure to.
frisco
The only thing I can add to that is......Commercials and Music vids are Stories.... Just short stories. And in the case of commercials, A knowlege base of Advertising/Marketing is very helpful which most film makers never get exposure to.
frisco
John Caballero
Veteran
My friends, photographers are artists and excelent artists very easily dable in related areas of their expertise. A painter as a sculptor, a mistery writer as a poet, an actor as a director. Many people nowadays get into photography or video because is cool and glamorous without regards as how talented they might really be at it. A truly talented and creative photographer would have absolutely no problem in getting into the motion pictures business. There is a very long history of photographers becoming succesful filmakers.
ESTEBEVERDE
Veteran
Some very interesting comments about the 5D MKII from a pro:
I was able to get some time in our HD edit suite today, here's what I found so far:
The original h.264 files provided by Vincent Laforet imported perfectly (and quickly) directly into the Avid Symphony Nitris. No fancy conversions, they dropped right in. In fact, these files seem to be very efficient and should work well with most home editing solutions.
We imported at DNxHD 220 (compressed) and 8-bit and 10-bit 1 to 1 (uncompressed).
We checked the imported 1080p 30fps video on calibrated Panosonic BT-LH2600W LCD and a $12k Sony BVM-A20F1 CRT reference monitor/display. Video signal was checked on a Leader LV5800 multi-monitor scope.
The quality of the video was outstanding. It was close to impossible to see a difference between the compressed and uncompressed imports, so in the future we would use DNxHD 220 to save media space.
The clips were shot with manual focus (as they should have been for pro-level production values). The actors would occasionally miss their marks, but when they hit the focus plane, sharpness was stunning and film like, no line delays or artificial enhancement like is usually associated with typical HD video cameras.
It was a real revelation to see the footage play on something other than a computer screen at a reduced compressed size. After being prepaired to try the many options in the dual boot DS and other "tricks" for converting to a 24p "look," we didn't bother. 30fps progressive is not 30fps 1080i (which is 60 interlaced fields per second). On a "real" HD display, 30fps progressive is VERY film-like as each frame is a complete 2mp image. Any motion showed the film-like stepping, and motion blur on each frame adds a rich film quality, most observers thought it was a film transfer.
We're used to seeing top-notch HD production footage, much of it from film, on these same monitors, and the 5DII video was up there with the best we've seen, except for small compression artifacts (on VERY close inspection-video pixel peeping) and the tiny amount of high ISO noise. But we couldn't even imagine what ISO 1600 16mm film would have looked like.
I pulled 3 different experienced editors into the room to evaluate the clips. They all work with high-end HD video and super-16mm film transfered footage. They expected to be disappointed, but ended up excited and impressed. At first, several asked if the producer composited the shots to get the shallow DOF in the helicopter and "kissing" scenes.
And so far all we've seen is ISO 1600 with small hot lights, some battery powered.
The photographic lenses provide a very natural, organic sharpness when seen on larger screens, and the sharpness is very un-video-like.
The bad news is that I can see some union issues ahead. But in non-pro environments that won't matter.
When I can get back in the room we'll play with frame rates. But the lack of 24p is no longer an issue for me. 30fps progressive, from a 35mm-size low light-capable sensor is simply geourgeuos and well worth the ergonomic problems inherent in a DSLR video camera.
I see now why Vincent was so excited and spent his own money to demonstrate the potential of this video quality. If my company doesn't buy one of these cameras I'll make them use mine! It'll be very hard to go back to the flat, "everything is in focus," over sharpened video cameras we usually use.
I'm not a techie, but if you have questions I'll try to find the answers. Thanks for reading.
Sal
I was able to get some time in our HD edit suite today, here's what I found so far:
The original h.264 files provided by Vincent Laforet imported perfectly (and quickly) directly into the Avid Symphony Nitris. No fancy conversions, they dropped right in. In fact, these files seem to be very efficient and should work well with most home editing solutions.
We imported at DNxHD 220 (compressed) and 8-bit and 10-bit 1 to 1 (uncompressed).
We checked the imported 1080p 30fps video on calibrated Panosonic BT-LH2600W LCD and a $12k Sony BVM-A20F1 CRT reference monitor/display. Video signal was checked on a Leader LV5800 multi-monitor scope.
The quality of the video was outstanding. It was close to impossible to see a difference between the compressed and uncompressed imports, so in the future we would use DNxHD 220 to save media space.
The clips were shot with manual focus (as they should have been for pro-level production values). The actors would occasionally miss their marks, but when they hit the focus plane, sharpness was stunning and film like, no line delays or artificial enhancement like is usually associated with typical HD video cameras.
It was a real revelation to see the footage play on something other than a computer screen at a reduced compressed size. After being prepaired to try the many options in the dual boot DS and other "tricks" for converting to a 24p "look," we didn't bother. 30fps progressive is not 30fps 1080i (which is 60 interlaced fields per second). On a "real" HD display, 30fps progressive is VERY film-like as each frame is a complete 2mp image. Any motion showed the film-like stepping, and motion blur on each frame adds a rich film quality, most observers thought it was a film transfer.
We're used to seeing top-notch HD production footage, much of it from film, on these same monitors, and the 5DII video was up there with the best we've seen, except for small compression artifacts (on VERY close inspection-video pixel peeping) and the tiny amount of high ISO noise. But we couldn't even imagine what ISO 1600 16mm film would have looked like.
I pulled 3 different experienced editors into the room to evaluate the clips. They all work with high-end HD video and super-16mm film transfered footage. They expected to be disappointed, but ended up excited and impressed. At first, several asked if the producer composited the shots to get the shallow DOF in the helicopter and "kissing" scenes.
And so far all we've seen is ISO 1600 with small hot lights, some battery powered.
The photographic lenses provide a very natural, organic sharpness when seen on larger screens, and the sharpness is very un-video-like.
The bad news is that I can see some union issues ahead. But in non-pro environments that won't matter.
When I can get back in the room we'll play with frame rates. But the lack of 24p is no longer an issue for me. 30fps progressive, from a 35mm-size low light-capable sensor is simply geourgeuos and well worth the ergonomic problems inherent in a DSLR video camera.
I see now why Vincent was so excited and spent his own money to demonstrate the potential of this video quality. If my company doesn't buy one of these cameras I'll make them use mine! It'll be very hard to go back to the flat, "everything is in focus," over sharpened video cameras we usually use.
I'm not a techie, but if you have questions I'll try to find the answers. Thanks for reading.
Sal