Understanding and Optimizing the Nikon D90 D-Movie Mode Image

No probs matt!

Tested the HDMI output today. Looks like the frame is actually cut off on the sides, cropped almost to 4:3. Oh well :/

Edit: Well 4:3 might be an exaggeration - it's sort of 13:9.

Also, I noticed weird behaviour with the camera when hooked up via hdmi. After playing around a bit it kept on turning off live-view and then refusing to output to hdmi for a while. Perhaps that's just the safety shutoff of liveview? I wasn't using it for more than about 10-15 minutes though.
 
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Hi guys, total noob here....contemplating buying a D90. What is the battery drain like using DMovie? How long could I record video until my standard battery was flat?

Also if I need to be in live view to use dmovie does this if I want to use it purely for video I will effectively be using live view constantly between shots and therefore caning the battery completely?

Any help much appreciated.
 
I got the camera today after much thinking. I needed a new DSLR anyway so I just went ahead and got the D90. The Video is just a cherry on top of an already superb DSLR.

Anyway, after messing around with the video all afternoon I have a few little conclusions:

I find that the obvious jaggies (stair-stepping) render footage useless for sharp HD videos.........

However, as I suspected, you can turn the sharpness down. So I turned the sharpness down to zero and shot some videos. The harsh jaggies are a lot less obvious and much more subtle. Still not amazing but better. You are probably wondering "why the hell would I want super-soft HD videos!!??". I will answer......

I'm a huge fan of 70's films especially 16mm or super8 stuff. When I make short films I usually add a little blur with grain to give a small-gauge film feel. I think that it gives short films an "other world" look.

So, after tinkering with my soft D90 footage in After Effects, adding a little more blur (Gaussion Blur 2.0) and some Magic Bullet grain. I have found a look that I have fallen in love with. I have results wich have the look of 16mm/Super8 but with the DOF of 35mm film (With rich colours too). For me it's perfect for the types of shorts that I make.

So there you have it. I think that the D90 is perfect for people like me who like to alter their footage to get some certain looks. however, f you want crisp HD footage it's really not the right choice.
 
Dear Kholi,
Doing the kind of empirical research that you did is a great experiment, so thanks for all your efforts. Maybe I've missed something, but there're a few things I do not get about your guide and the logic of the steps you describe. The second step you describe in section three is:

....2. Turn on AE-L (hold), you can check to see if it's active by peerin' into the viewfinder for the AE-L icon.

Once you lock your exposure values the camera doesn't, cannot change them right? You're in manual mode, so aperture, exposure and ISO settings are all locked. So when you continue:

....3. Close your Iris down to an f5.6 ~ 8

Well, do you mean that until this point you have the lens full open? And what might that be? Are you assuming f2.8 or f2 or f1.4? Depending on the original aperture all you seem to be doing is underexposing your image by 2 to 5 stops. From f1.4 to f8 it'd be 5 stops (letting through 1/32 of the original light) from 2.8 to 5.6 only two stops (1/4 of the original light).

....4. Aim the camera at a wall or surface that's brightly lit. It should not be blown out, but bright. ....I would say just about sixty-percent (60%) Exposed or a little more.

Well, but by this time, the exposure has been long locked! So what's the point? No matter what you point your camera at the setting WILL NOT change. Or am I missing something in understanding the AE-lock function?

....5. Activate LV mode.
....6. Open the Iris to a 2.8 or 1.4 and check the cleanliness. Not to mention the 1/30 ~ 1/60th shutter. Mmmmm. Delightful.

Okay, so you open up the aperture again for controlling your highlights. Fine. But how are you going to expose your video clip? How will you set your aperture given that exposure and ISO are already set for good and have been since step 2?

I think (but please correct me if I'm wrong) I understand your real intention. You're trying to fool the metering system of the camera in an intelligent and predictable way. The metering (i.e. spot metering) will aim for a mid-grey scene (18%). So if you put in front of your camera something four times as bright (i.e. having a reflectance value of 72% - quite close to the 60% you suggest), in other words not a grey card but a somewhat dirty white card then the camera will assume that your scene is actually a bright one and will give you a lower ISO/higher exposure combination.

This of course assumes that you haven't yet locked your exposure.

Now if you "fooled" your metering by two stops then for correct exposure you have to open up two stops - so if you've measured for f5.6 then you'll have to shoot with f2.8.

So much for the theory.

But then I just simply do not get your conclusion:

....1. You told the camera that, at f5.6, this certain amount is what I want to be exposed perfectly.

IMO you did not such thing. When you're camera is in manual mode (especially with an old manual lense!) the only way for you to control if you're having correct exposure or not is the histogram. Or a spot meter.

....2. The Camera, because it was AE-L (LOCK)'d prior to, doesn't have more than a second to look at the wall and adjust the shutter speed before the AE-L kicks in and denies it a chance to move the ISO higher. This is my theory. I would like others to look at it and tell me if what I'm seeing is true. I have a reason for not being sure about that I outline in the next section: how to get slightly Higher ISOs.

Again, I do not get what you're saying. The program of the camera doesn't "think" on a second scale but on a millisecond scale. Plus do not forget, that with your manual setting you could have set up - for all I know - exposure at ISO 1600, f5.6 and 1/1000 sec. And then you push AE-L and LV? Don't tell me that if you do this fast enough, the camera won't be able to "react" fast enough and do what? Lower the ISO? Lengthen the exposure?

....3. By using a Manual lens, you do NOT have to switch out of LV mode and ruin that exposure or ISO setting. You can now open the Iris up or close it however you see fit.

See my point above. I simply do not see, how a - basically - fully automatic movie mode could be "fooled" to preserve settings from a fully manual mode. The whole point of the manual mode being that you can set up anything, heavy overexposure or underexposure.

I'm shooting a short test "commercial" tomorrow with the D90 so I can get back to you with some results. But I'd definitely like to hear more from you, because so far I have the feeling that your empirical results may work, but your reasoning is flawed.

Cheers,

Szornyeteg
 
my suggestion is to take it gradually(one-by-one on clicks), lock it and see what is gonna work for you...
 
szornveteg --

You're thinking about it a lot more than I did. The point of that is to make sure you get an acceptable shutter and ISO rating. You wouldn't control your exposure with anything in a real world situation with anything other than NDs and external lighting techniques. Same goes for this one, even worse being that it lacks manual functions.

It's only to get a low/slower shutter and low ISO rating.

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=146661 -- Check the title of the section. It's about cleanliness and a low shutter, NOT about exposure. How you choose to get proper exposure is up to you. But, you're reading it the wrong way.


szornyeteg said:
I'm shooting a short test "commercial" tomorrow with the D90 so I can get back to you with some results. But I'd definitely like to hear more from you, because so far I have the feeling that your empirical results may work, but your reasoning is flawed.

Cheers,

Szornyeteg
Click to expand...

Shoot with it then get back to me.
 
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I have an innocent question. :)

Re :

.... 1.4 ~ 2.8 = 200 ~ 320ISO
.... 4 ~ 5.6 = 400 ~ 640ISO
.... 8 ~ 16 = 800 ~ 1200ISO
.... 16 ~ beyond = 1200+ISO

Is this any bearing then on other posts or discoveries at all about what constitutes a "clean image" or "acceptable amount of gain/grain". Obviously it is quite subjective, and different lenses etc.

But assuming we are talking about a 1/30 1/60 shutter speed, If the camera is capable of 100>3200 + 6400 + imaginative isos based on a bunch of gain... Is the statement above indicate that an iso beyond 1200 is unacceptable? Or just that that is the max at that shutter speed it can be tricked into?

I only ask because today I got my first ED lens, (mainly been using AF, occasional AF-S) and the camera refuses to talk to it in anything but manual mode. Ok. Refuses to go into LV without the aperture right. ok. BUT different than the AF lenses, it refuses to accept any auto or easyiso iso adjustments in picture mode and of course any thumbwheeled aperture. The ONLY thing you can adjust is the shutter speed + the iso (not auto) in the menu.

So liberated, I set a shutter speed, cause I only have the manual choice. Set an iso manually, thats all I have. Lock it, enter LV, then I am manual apeture only adjusting!!! So it leads me to the question with that lens...

What is a reasonable iso before it injects a bunch of gain? I am talking low light of course still.

One way I guess would be open the lens wide open, then choose the least iso that gets me enough light popping in and out of lv. Short dof. well ok.

But it would be nice to leave it on an iso and say 1/60 shutter and then just use the aperture to guide if I have enough light, but still a clean image?

I presume it is reliant on the sensor. To me it seems like I could set an ISO of 6400 on my D700 and it barely was noticeable, vs the d90. Of course the FX sensor comes into play. So back we are again.

What are people finding when they are doing low light, for them is the iso limit at these shutter speeds of a "clean" image?

Its tempting to beleive that nikon labelling anything above 3200 strangly on the d90 and anything above 6400 on the d700 strangly, means those are the "
inject gain" limits. But it could just be marketing...

Sorry if this is clear as day and I'm not getting it. This lens has thrown me from a "trick the iso" to pick it in a menu, and lock it iso, near as I can tell... And its on the basis its not willy nilly pumping the iso above what you select in picture mode before you lock it, since there is no auto iso range for this lens... Nice if whatever you set as the max in that menu translated to LV mode... I presume not...

I'm from a "throw more light at it" background, and now want to be, "screw the lights" how low can we go without a nasty image.... wannabe ;)

Cheers
 
Ah. Yet again D90 lv mode has a mind of it's own. Changing the ISO in the menu is the only way to get ED glass to behave. And yes, changing shutter speed affects it in still. But yet again. Even locked, once in LV, they don't mean a damn thing :(

So back to all the exposure tricks and shutter speed tricks. I guess the question about what is the max iso people use to still have a clean image still stands, but more inline with the tricks, vs any kind of direct correlation.

I still want to get it nutted before I start filming something creative. I don't want "unclean footage" :(
 
I think I am finally getting it with exposure tricks. Only thing I dont quite get, is why use grey cards?
When you press the info button on the back while in still mode, it gives you the iso reading. And when you take a still shot, it gives you the exposure histogram.

So with a manual lens like ED. It only pays attention to manual mode, and a manual iso anyway. So all trickery aside to use this lens in still mode, you HAVE to set a reasonable ISO anyway, to even make use of the post-shot metering.

So set manual, your shutter 50, set your aperture manually mid-range, then set your iso ; whatever figure you think its unlikely to add grain to, and take a shot. Check the histogram. If you are under/off, point the camera light or dark, etc, snap again, check the histogram... So long as you have the exposure right, its not underexposed, then its not injecting gain (and it cannot adjust iso or shutter speed that you've set at that point in manual still mode) - so you lock it, head into LV, go for your life with manual apeature..

For AF lens, even easier. Set auto iso. Set manual mode. Set your shutter. Whilst pointing the camera around, hit the info button. Check the back display for a live iso reading as you go light/dark etc. Found the one you like, lock it in, head into LV...

I know the iso is not being taken into lv mode, but is it a constant that goes with shutter speed and aperture in manual mode?, that you can get an exposure reading on, and based on that iso reading and lock it based on when you know it is/is not going to inject gain?

Unless this is what everyone is doing and they grey cards are only to get a quick consistent result to expose with , I don't see much mention of using the metering to help you hit the iso you want in a repeatable fashion. Surely then the only variable is finding the iso at that shutter speed that injects grain and knowing that is the number you dont want to go above. Either way, in manual mode, if you know the max acceptable iso to you for low light, thats your fixed situation, and use the exposure meter to make sure it is not going to mess with you?

Unless of course locking it while the metering is telling you, yeah yeah shutter is good, iso is what you want, exposure is right (so I am not going to grain you in still mode) - has zero reasonable direct correlation to what it locks in for shutter and iso for lv mode in that instance. But a meter is a meter? Wouldn't what it set just then carry over - and since your shutter speed was fixed when you took the reading, and you were not under-exposed, and you could see the iso it was dreaming up - doesn't it make sense it would not be gaining it up then? - so locked at that, its not going to try once in LV? If it's the same metering tables, then you also have an advantage of knowing the shutter speed got locked exactly...?

I could be way off here, but if someone could correct me or try it, or explain why there is no need I think I am there. And if its right then the variable is fix an idea of the max iso to keep a clean image, then just look at the meter and hitting the lock button, which is pretty easy.
 
I has no idea what you're sayin', Timmy. Haha You're gonna have to sum that up.

But, basically: anything you do before you activate LV is erased for a split second. That's why I say to activate AE-L before you go into Live View Mode.

Also, ISo and Shutter and everything: it doesn't apply to Movie Mode.
 
evilfoxhound said:
So, after tinkering with my soft D90 footage in After Effects, adding a little more blur (Gaussion Blur 2.0) and some Magic Bullet grain. I have found a look that I have fallen in love with. I have results wich have the look of 16mm/Super8 but with the DOF of 35mm film (With rich colours too). For me it's perfect for the types of shorts that I make.
Click to expand...


Great, this is good news for me, because I won't really need a crisp HD look for what I have in mind (should I decide to buy and use a D90). I thought there's nothing we can do to eliminate the jaggies without manually removing them. This makes sense for me. 16mm look is okay. Would love to see a sample of your footages.
 
Kholi said:
I has no idea what you're sayin', Timmy. Haha You're gonna have to sum that up.

But, basically: anything you do before you activate LV is erased for a split second. That's why I say to activate AE-L before you go into Live View Mode.

Also, ISo and Shutter and everything: it doesn't apply to Movie Mode.
Click to expand...

Heh....Yeah, I need to start writing posts off board, summarize and post.. Bad writing habits ;)

Summary. For AFS lenses Have you looked at the lcd screen pressing info, before you go into live view in manual mode, with a manual shutter speed, and auto iso, pointed it around, got an iso you wanted (presuming you think it only injects gain at a certain metered iso) - and used that reading to lock AE-L before liveview. I know they dont carry over, but at that point in still mode you would be telling the camera, don't add grain.
Same thing for manual ED lens, but taking shot and checking the histogram.
Could save grey cards, could mean that a static iso and using the meter/histogram to check could be a solid repeatable science of some sort.
 
I think grey cards and a meter are the way to go. I think we will find that at a given illumination and aperture setting on a flat grey card it will do the same thing everytime.

I have no confidence that it meters the same way in Auto as it does in LV for D-Movie, indeed I have seen people suggest it uses the metering info from the red box area, whereas Matrix metering will use the entire image- matrix metering in still mode is very complex and compares the info from a slew of sensors (plus the distance value with a D series lens) and places that against a large database to determine the best metering- its sort of an artificial intelligence thing. I doubt that it does this constantly during LV to determine what is the best setting to meter a video preview... and thats essentially what D-Movie is recording is the LV preview that was meant as an aid to a still photographer.

Maybe (yeah right!) I'll have time this week to spend a few hours trying to see what it does at a given light level... wish I still had one of my ol' light meters.
 
Bugger. That is going to be no help then. Even changing to something less complex in still mode like spot metering, is no 4sure as you say it is using any kind of spot metering in LV mode. I was kinda hoping the box thing was purely the focus attempt thing for between takes. The setting for normal/wide etc in movie mode. And I notice that the box is gone in Portrait and night portrait in LV mode. That might be a clue or might make a difference. Maybe that would even the playing field...
 
fahreza said:
16mm look is okay. Would love to see a sample of your footages.
Click to expand...

http://www.vimeo.com/1826475

Download it to see it in 720p (With a little bit of compression). It's not a perfect 16mm look but i'm working on it. You can still see some of those damn jaggies on high contrast lines :Drogar-Mad(DBG):.

PS, the download version is quite compressed and the grain looks quite bad. I can assure you that it looks a better uncompressed.
 
What lens did you use? Even with the sharpness turned down to just about - (0) my stuff isn't that soft.

Looks soft focused.
 
I added some blur in After Effects because turning the sharpness down in camera does not completely hide the jagginess :( I will find a way to combat it. If it takes me forever lol

I'm going back to the drawing board.
 
evilfoxhound said:
http://www.vimeo.com/1826475

Download it to see it in 720p (With a little bit of compression). It's not a perfect 16mm look but i'm working on it. You can still see some of those damn jaggies on high contrast lines :Drogar-Mad(DBG):.

PS, the download version is quite compressed and the grain looks quite bad. I can assure you that it looks a better uncompressed.
Click to expand...

Woah...that honestly looked like film. The grain really did the trick along with the softness.

Usually people over-push the film look and just ruin it...this was really good...

I am looking forward to a new D-90 next week!!
 
evilfoxhound said:
http://www.vimeo.com/1826475

Download it to see it in 720p (With a little bit of compression). It's not a perfect 16mm look but i'm working on it. You can still see some of those damn jaggies on high contrast lines :Drogar-Mad(DBG):.

PS, the download version is quite compressed and the grain looks quite bad. I can assure you that it looks a better uncompressed.
Click to expand...


i can't even see the download version. i can only see the one on vimeo. tried to download it and it stoppped halfway, when i tried to resume it asks for passwords and such. will try to download it again, i'm curious...
 
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