HMC150 questions answered...

There's been a lot of talk on FCP's support for AVCHD and the HMC150 in this thread. Using the "log and transfer" method in FCP which converts the AVCHD to ProRes 422 or something like that are we going to notice any loss in quality of the footage?

How much bigger is 1.5 hrs (16GB card full) going to be after we convert it to prores? Same? 30 GBs?

Thanks.
 
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VideoMaker's Review

VideoMaker's Review

Here's their review...

AVCHD Goes Pro

The Panasonic AG-HMC150 is a sign that the AVCHD format has matured from a cumbersome consumer format to a nimble HD choice for event videographers and burgeoning pros.

While editing the content still has its hurdles, the new data-based workflow, even in worst-case scenarios, has its benefits. But it's not for everyone. Shooters who need long record times, extreme durability and a lightweight camcorder will rejoice. Beyond the obvious advantages, the AG-HMC150 delivers stunning image performance and a proven camcorder design. We think this camcorder is one of the most notable of the year. Let's take a closer look with our Panasonic AG-HMC150 review to see why it's a standout camcorder.

Dependable Design

Form and function matter to a shooter. The Panasonic AG-HMC150 has carried over a well-thought-out design from the Panasonic AG-DVX100 and AG-HVX200. For owners of these camcorders, the design will look very similar. If you're new to this design altogether, we think you'll find it to be a good blend of manual controls that are easy to reach and not too many buttons to clutter the camcorder's housing.
Most notably, the AG-HMC150 camcorder is very light. The AVCHD format allows for less weight, as there's no need for a tape transport. This is a great quality for handheld shooters or anyone lugging the camcorder around long hours. Additionally, we don't see Panasonic skimping on AG-HMC150's design volume. The camcorder itself is fairly large, which makes it much easier to stabilize and control. That's an important point of interest to professional shooters. In the end, we experienced only one slight design hiccup. The audio gain controls are a little challenging to get to with the protective shield in place. This shield is there to limit the chances of bumping the gain pots. Avoiding that chance is great, but it annoyed us when we wanted to make gain adjustments. The good news is that you can easily remove this plastic shield and possibly file it down a bit, should you choose to take the risk.

Mixed Modes

The AG-HMC150 should appeal to a broad category of shooters, with its variable frame rates and several different recording quality options. Formats include 1080/60i, 1080/30p, 1080/24p, 720/60p, 720/30p and 720/24p to choose from. The 720/60p stands out for its ability to work as an over-crank frame rate for smooth slow motion on 30p or 24p playback. Other than that, it's standard fare of interlaced and progressive formats. Things get interesting, however, with the inclusion of a new, high-quality recording setting.

The PH recording mode is set at 21Mbps. That's an increase in previously-released AVCHD camcorders that should see benefits in the camcorder's ability to compress motion more accurately. We're appreciative of these improvements in quality, but keep in mind this also means more heavy lifting on your processors in editing. You'll have to balance quality with efficiency if you've got a slower system. Otherwise, Panasonic offers a free utility that will convert the AVCHD files into the DVCPro format. This will reduce the responsibilities of the processor, but will dramatically increase file size. The AVCHD format has its tradeoffs. The clear benefit of the format is the data-based workflow and the native file format's small file sizes.

Let's Get Optical

The first thing we noticed about the AG-HMC150 was the wide-angle lens. This zoom lens starts at 28mm (35mm equivalent). That's a decent wide-viewing angle, perfect for small rooms. And while the 13x zoom doesn't seem like a great deal of telephoto power, the experience of moving through the lens length from the 28mm starting position reveals lots of wonderful lengths in which to compose compelling shots. All this means there's a lot of shot lengths for Creative Directors and DPs to choose from. You can also put away your wide-angle converter; it's 28mm right out of the box, and it has enough on the telephoto side to get you up close and personal.

The Panasonic AG-HMC150 also features color and gamma controls similar to those of the AG-DVX100 and AG-HVX200. The color reproduction of this AVCHD camcorder, despite being a higher compression ratio of 4:2:0, looks great. The progressive scan CCDs also help the AG-HMC150 capture clear images before passing that data through AVCHD compression algorithms. We were pleased with the resolution and details in the images at the higher bitrates. This includes the ability to handle motion as well, which is where the increased compression bandwidth really pays off.

Pro Sound Up Front

Beyond the look and feel of the AG-HMC150, the professional features extend to the audio controls. Two XLR inputs equal two channels of audio that can be controlled independently. We found the gain controls to be heavily guarded (in a good way) by a clear plastic shield that made it unusually difficult to get a good handle on the control. This helps keep the gain pots from being bumped accidentally. Fortunately, you can remove this shield or modify it if you're clever with a file. To do so, of course, will be modifying at your own risk.
On top of the camcorder, there's a shotgun microphone holder for the obvious reason of adding said mic. Or the on-board mic will also do the job for the casual shooter. All these options give the shooter some flexibility. You're limited, however, with the Dolby AC3 audio recording format as the only audio codec. The AC3 audio performed quite well, though.

Finding a Home

Following the footsteps of the AG-DVX100 and AG-HVX200, the AG-HMC150 is set to move right in and find itself at home with a unique set of shooters. Creative videographers who need an HD camcorder with professional controls at a reasonable price will be most interested. The AVCHD format could turn some folks away, as tape still gives us a sense of comfort by familiarity. But, as processing and memory technologies increase, the cost efficiency of the tapeless workflow will ultimately improve and will be the most compelling in the end. The Panasonic AG-HMC150's superb performance and proven design make it one of the first prosumer-level camcorders poised to cross that tapeless line.

TECH SPECS

Format: AVCHD
Image Sensor: 3 x 1/3" CCDs
Interchangeable Lenses: No
Lens f-Stop: f1.6-3.0
Optical Zoom: 13x
Focal Length: 28-368mm
Filter Diameter: 72mm
Focus: Auto/Manual
Maximum Shutter Speed: 1/2000 (60i), 1/1000 (30p, 24p)
Minimum Shutter Speed: 1/15
Image Stabilization: Optical
Manual White Balance: Yes
Viewfinder: Color .44" 235k pixels
LCD Monitor: Color 3.5" 211k
Progressive Scan: Yes
Video Out: HDMI, component, composite
Microphone In: Yes (XLR)
Headphone Jack: Yes
Battery Type: Lithium-ion
Form Factor: Standard, horizontal
Memory Card Loading Config.: Back
Accessory Shoe: Yes

Strengths

  • Lightweight
  • Long record times
  • Professional audio
  • Mixed frame rates
  • 28mm wide-angle lens
  • High-quality recording bitrate
Weaknesses

  • Editing AVCHD requires dual-core processor
SUMMARY
The Panasonic AG-HMC150 is a remarkable camcorder that will make shooting professional HD video a reality for many of us.
Mark Montgomery is Videomaker's Technical Editor.
Panasonic Broadcast
One Panasonic Way
Secaucus, NJ 07094
www.panasonic.com
$3,995
Click to expand...


Bob Diaz
 
AVCHD and FCP

AVCHD and FCP

Stephen,

I am not sure how this will relate to the PH footage from the HC 150. But I just edited a job for a client with footage filmed on a Panny HDC-sd-9. The footage took up about 20 gb of card space. When transfered into Pro Res the footage now takes up 176gb. The thought of importing a full day of filming a multicam shoot with 3 cameras suddenly looks very daunting. I am drooling over everything this camera offers, but I just am not sure if the workflow is going to be worth it. Hopefully apple will give us a way to edit the raw mts files without having to convert them into pro-res. We'll see....

Jonathan Schwartz
CA Video Productions
 
seven.b said:
There's been a lot of talk on FCP's support for AVCHD and the HMC150 in this thread. Using the "log and transfer" method in FCP which converts the AVCHD to ProRes 422 or something like that are we going to notice any loss in quality of the footage?

How much bigger is 1.5 hrs (16GB card full) going to be after we convert it to prores? Same? 30 GBs?

Thanks.
Click to expand...

For 1.5 hours:
ProRes 422 1920x1080 = 93gb
ProRes 422 1280x720 = 47gb

I believe that is what Log and Transfer uses to transcode HMC150 footage

The 176 gb for 20gb figure sounds like ProRes 422 HQ 1920x1080 which is arguably overkill for this camera
 
I know I plan to use the camera in 720p 99% of the time so the 47gb per 16gb card transcode doesn't seeem like such a big deal to me. As we all know hard drives keep getting cheaper...
 
Hopefully apple will give us a way to edit the raw mts files without having to convert them into pro-res.
Click to expand...

Hear, hear! We are all waiting intently for this. Apple, are you listening?!?
 
CAVIDEO said:
Stephen,

I am not sure how this will relate to the PH footage from the HC 150. But I just edited a job for a client with footage filmed on a Panny HDC-sd-9. The footage took up about 20 gb of card space. When transfered into Pro Res the footage now takes up 176gb. The thought of importing a full day of filming a multicam shoot with 3 cameras suddenly looks very daunting. I am drooling over everything this camera offers, but I just am not sure if the workflow is going to be worth it. Hopefully apple will give us a way to edit the raw mts files without having to convert them into pro-res. We'll see....

Jonathan Schwartz
CA Video Productions
Click to expand...

Hey, thanks for the help Johnathan!

One more question though... how did you now my name?
 
BobDiaz said:
Here's their review...

"...Panasonic offers a free utility that will convert the AVCHD files into the DVCPro format. This will reduce the responsibilities of the processor, but will dramatically increase file size..."


Bob Diaz
Click to expand...

Although FCP's Log & Transfer does not support it presently, DVCProHD transcoding would make smaller files. This is the same 4:2:2 codec the HVX200/200a and HPX170 use.

1.5 Hours:
DVCProHD 720p = 31Gb
DVCProHD 1080 = 61Gb

I believe the EdiusHQ codec falls somewhere in between this and ProRes 422
 
zeta said:
Can anyone recommend a retailer to purchase this camera? I have it narrowed down to either www.avsupply.com or www.avalive.com. They are both offering competitive pricing on the shooter package. B&H is not being considered for it, due to the lack of the 5800mA battery in the kit. Thanks?
Click to expand...


Hello Zeta.
I ordered this camera from Avalive about 3 days ago because they did have some of the best prices however I have never used them before.
I had a lot of questions because coming from a still photography background I know that there are scams out there on the internet but so far everything looks good.
It should ship around October 3rd so I'll let you know if it worked out well.

I hope that helps you a little.
 
We appreciate all the traffic and the opening price for the AG-HMC150 has been sold out. All who have confirmed orders are taken care. Yes we are a USA Dealer yes the full warranty applies.

We are now taking orders on what still is a great price with a free 8GB memory card.

AValive
 
My vendor provided me with a much better price than any mentioned here. Anyone interested please PM me and I will give you the price and the contact info.
 
CAVIDEO said:
The footage took up about 20 gb of card space. When transfered into Pro Res the footage now takes up 176gb. The thought of importing a full day of filming a multicam shoot with 3 cameras suddenly looks very daunting.
Click to expand...
Yes. Because Apple's approach is stupid. Transcoding to ProRes is just dumb. Turning 32GB of footage into 320GB and taking hours to do it? Pass.

I am drooling over everything this camera offers, but I just am not sure if the workflow is going to be worth it.
Click to expand...
I've seen how the workflow can be on other systems and it ranges from okay to excellent. Transcoding to 8x or 10x the file size on ProRes? Ignorant and unacceptable. Apple's GOT to come into at least the 20th century, if not the 21st.

Hopefully apple will give us a way to edit the raw mts files without having to convert them into pro-res. We'll see....
Click to expand...
I bet you everyone else will. We'll see how (or if) Apple responds in FCP.
 
ProRess transcode :(

Can you edit it at all natively on a jacked up system?

I have two 150s on order and may reconsider if FCP is going to make such a hassle out of workflow and the 150. Real shame since Apple supported P2 so well.
 
Barry_Green said:
I've seen how the workflow can be on other systems and it ranges from okay to excellent. Transcoding to 8x or 10x the file size on ProRes? Ignorant and unacceptable. Apple's GOT to come into at least the 20th century, if not the 21st.
Click to expand...

What about render times that are 8x or 10x the time it would take to finish in ProRes?
If an edit is going to be fx-intensive, suddenly ProRes would make more sense.

If edit performance on MPEG4 improves dramtically with newer computers, great, but it's still heavy compression at the very least applied twice.
 
Elton said:
What about render times that are 8x or 10x the time it would take to finish in ProRes?
If an edit is going to be fx-intensive, suddenly ProRes would make more sense.
Click to expand...
Perhaps -- but why force everyone to use the worst-case scenario? There are many edits that would consist of cuts-only or, at worst, dissolves, maybe a title -- that can be done in realtime on other systems and nobody has to wait hours and spend for 10x the hard disk space, so -- sure, it's admirable if people have a CHOICE. But it's pretty lame to force the least-efficient workflow onto all users.

If edit performance on MPEG4 improves dramtically with newer computers, great, but it's still heavy compression at the very least applied twice.
Click to expand...
I've seen realtime performance already on today's hardware, with compression only applied once (in the camera). Any further compression is no more than you'd face with editing any other format, so I don't understand the "twice" part here.
 
I agree with what you're saying, for the most part. I do agree that CHOICE is what's most important, but it's just my experience that AVCHD is likely to be even slower than HDV to work with.

What I meant by "twice" is that if you are going to apply any effect to the video (and nowadays plenty of people do a basic CC over everything in the final edit) it has to recompress those frames, so just like HDV you will have another pass of low bit-rate compression on the material, which can actually be visible in high motion stuff. Intermediate codecs like CineForm, ProRes are much milder codecs to work with and will preserve more quality.
 
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