Barry_Green
Moderator
Yep, that's an ideal reason to consider the upgrade. The standard-def 16:9 will look WAY better from an HMC150 than it would from a digitally-stretched VX2000, PD170, or DVX.
HMC150 questions answered...
- Thread starter Barry_Green
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Barry_Green
Moderator
Or it could take zero seconds, if you don't bother to transcode. Just drag and drop the file into an editor that supports the format properly. :thumbsup:
Barry_Green
Moderator
It's from the broadcast line, not the consumer line, so it will go through the broadcast channels. I would expect that anywhere you can find a DVX100 for sale, you'll be able to find an HMC150 for sale there too.
Barry_Green
Moderator
My guess is that the resolution of the live feed will be about the same, but the recorded codec can hold more detail (as long as it doesn't get overloaded). So in 720p mode I would expect a 150 to show more detail than a 200, but only because the codec doesn't pre-filter. In 1080 mode I bet its detail would be comparable to a 200/170, but I bet the 200/170 will look better because of the better format and 4:2:2.
Bassman2003
Veteran
Thanks Barry.
How about adding gain?
Does the HMC-150 stay pretty clean when adding some gain?
If it can match the PD-170 with a bit of gain and still be clean, then I think it will be an even trade (light wise).
I can't recall needing that much gain with the PD-170 as I film with a light.
Barry_Green
Moderator
The 150's 6dB of gain is pretty mild with noise. Plus, as you downscale, the noise will be averaged together, so I'd guess that yes a 150+6dB is still going to be competitive with, if not cleaner than, a PD170. But, without a 170 to test against, this is just guesswork...
Yeah, I know Barry! But I was hoping I wouldn't have to upgrade to a new editing system/computer since until now i could edit p2 HD no problem on my mac g5 quad.
me too! oh we need someone to make a thrid party plug-in for us PowerPC FCP 6.0 users...
ryan brown
lOwEr CaSe Member
Sounds like a plan, friend:thumbsup::bath:
Barry_Green
Moderator
Correct, it uses a different battery. This new 150 uses infolithium-type batteries which provide a to-the-minute readout of battery life. Not compatible with the older cameras. The only battery I have for it is a little cube about an inch and a half square, and it lasts for about 90 minutes. They make a bigger 5800mah battery also, which is actually bigger than the DVX/HVX battery.
Yes, all the scene files controls are all identical to the HPX170 (except for FRAME RATE and OPERATION TYPE). You can't directly use the scene files from a 170 in a 150, but you can shuffle around the data in order to make it compatible.
That's actually one of the irks I've found though -- just like with SxS, having the scene files stored on the same card as your footage makes for an irritating little moment when you format the card and then realize *all your saved scene files are gone!* It only takes a second to realize that you did the wrong thing though; the camera has a function for "delete all clips" and that's what I should have used, instead of formatting. I'm just used to P2 where we always format the card to erase it; on AVC-HD we're going to have to change our workflow slightly to instead just choose "delete all clips". You can also "protect" clips from deletion, which is pretty cool.
ryan brown
lOwEr CaSe Member
Hmmm... in regards to this, though, SD cards actually should be formatted often to help sustain life and productivity. When I shoot with my digital SLR, I try and format every time I start a new session, as recommended by... just about everyone.
Not a big deal, just note worthy.
Thoughts?
Nektonic
Veteran
Barry, first let me say thanks for taking all the time to test the HMC-150, although I sense that you are having a good time with this new toy. Anyways, I wouldn't know where to begin without all this useful information.
I do have a couple questions:
From what I've read so far, the HMC-150 seems as to be a great 720p camera, but not really ideally suited for 1080p work. Do you feel this way? Would you feel obligated to recommend a different camera to someone looking to work in 1080p, or will the 150 be good enough?
How would you rate the 150's 1080p image to say an XL-H1 or XH-A1. Is one superior? Which is sharper or more resolute? Are they relatively the same? If different, do you feel that it is the imaging chips or do the differences in codecs have a lot to do with it?
How does the 150 compare to the A1's sensitivity? Which one perdorms better in low light in your opinion, and how much actual difference is there?
I do have a couple questions:
From what I've read so far, the HMC-150 seems as to be a great 720p camera, but not really ideally suited for 1080p work. Do you feel this way? Would you feel obligated to recommend a different camera to someone looking to work in 1080p, or will the 150 be good enough?
How would you rate the 150's 1080p image to say an XL-H1 or XH-A1. Is one superior? Which is sharper or more resolute? Are they relatively the same? If different, do you feel that it is the imaging chips or do the differences in codecs have a lot to do with it?
How does the 150 compare to the A1's sensitivity? Which one perdorms better in low light in your opinion, and how much actual difference is there?
Barry_Green
Moderator
I think the 150 does just fine in 1080p. I just think it excels further in 720p (meaning, the picture is sharper in 1080p, but not dramatically so, whereas in 720p the compression is a lot milder so; viewing it as a 1080p camera, it does well, but viewing it as a 720p camera it stomps.) But if you're looking for the absolute most sharpest crispest 1080p picture possible, other cameras can be sharper.
Considering that the 150 delivers a better picture than the 200, and I compared the 200 against the XHA1, I would have no qualms in saying that the 150 delivers what I consider a more pleasing image than either of the Canons (and I'm sure many Canon fans will disagree; this is, of course, subjective). I posted lots of pictures from my XHA1 vs. HVX200 comparison; the 150 is way cleaner and with even better color accuracy than the HVX200 so you could use that as a starting point. I don't have a Canon here to compare against directly.
In 1080i, the Canons will show more detail. In 1080p they're within spitting distance according to the images I shot. In 720p, ... well, the Canons don't do 720p so you can't really compare that.
Those who prefer the Canon look will say it's the chips. Those who prefer the Panasonic look will point to the signficantly better recording format and the signal processing (the signature "panasonic look" of the gamma and color.)
The A1 and HVX were pretty close, with the improvements in the 150 I'd say it's more sensitive, and it's way quieter in noise.
Without having them both here to test, but based on my testing of the 200 vs. XHA1, I'd say the 150 is easily going to best the A1 in low light performance.
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Nektonic
Veteran
Thanks Barry. I wasn't trying to start a Canon vs. Panasonic war. I think both companies produce amazing cameras, just depends on what you need, want, and can afford I guess. I'm just trying to get an idea if it is worth it for me to upgrade from my A1 to a 150 considering I use Final Cut and don't want to switch editing platforms. Sounds like in many ways the 150 has the upper hand. I suppose I could wait til CES 09 and if by then the workflow is more streamlined and there isn't anything else announced from the competition that is equal or better then the HMC will probably be the way to go.
One thing that I do a lot of is freelance work where the client always wants 4x3 DV. I know that many might disagree, but I have to say that I wish the 150 had a DV tape drive in addition to the AVC-HD capabilities. If you think about it, this would make it even more of a no-brainer for current DVX owners to switch to a 150. I would guess that others might feel similar if they do freelance where the client still demands tape. Do you think it is possible that Panasonic will release a 150 model that also has the tape drive? Kinda like how they now have the 200A and the 170. Those who don't need tape would obviously jsut get the 150 we have now, but those who needed tape could then have the choice to get the other model. I understand that without a tape drive it makes the 150 lighter and cost less, but for those who would need one, the slight amount of extra bulk and weight would probably be worth it.
I was also wondering about the focus assist modes. I see that there is a magnification mode even while recording. Very nice. There is also a focus meter or something like that. How does that work? Is it easy to get used to? I don't see anything about a peaking function. Does the 150 have it?
How is the LCD. Is it sharper than previous models? I'm not sure but I remember hearing that many HVX200 users thought the LCD was too soft for getting accurate focus.
One thing that I do a lot of is freelance work where the client always wants 4x3 DV. I know that many might disagree, but I have to say that I wish the 150 had a DV tape drive in addition to the AVC-HD capabilities. If you think about it, this would make it even more of a no-brainer for current DVX owners to switch to a 150. I would guess that others might feel similar if they do freelance where the client still demands tape. Do you think it is possible that Panasonic will release a 150 model that also has the tape drive? Kinda like how they now have the 200A and the 170. Those who don't need tape would obviously jsut get the 150 we have now, but those who needed tape could then have the choice to get the other model. I understand that without a tape drive it makes the 150 lighter and cost less, but for those who would need one, the slight amount of extra bulk and weight would probably be worth it.
I was also wondering about the focus assist modes. I see that there is a magnification mode even while recording. Very nice. There is also a focus meter or something like that. How does that work? Is it easy to get used to? I don't see anything about a peaking function. Does the 150 have it?
How is the LCD. Is it sharper than previous models? I'm not sure but I remember hearing that many HVX200 users thought the LCD was too soft for getting accurate focus.
Barry_Green
Moderator
For 4:3 DV, your Canon already does that, so maybe sticking with it is the more appropriate course for you?
Panasonic offers the HVX for those who still need a DV tape drive (well, that, plus the DVX is still selling).
Focus is very easy on the 150, the magnified focus assist plus the graph plus the extremely strong peaking make it a breeze to pull pixel-perfect focus. I was using my BT-LH80 monitor for the indoors stuff and found that I didn't really need to, for focus accuracy; I could pull just as accurate off the expanded LCD.
The LCD itself looks to be the same, but the signal processing that it undergoes is greatly enhanced. The peaking has been amazingly improved. You can do a reasonable job of pulling accurate focus just off the LCD without even using the magnification, because the peaking just "snaps" when you hit accurate focus. I haven't heard any complaints from 200A owners about the LCD, and the 200A isn't as improved as the 170/150 are. I tried the 170 against the 200 against the 200A, and the 200A's improvement was only about half as much as the 170/150 are.
Panasonic offers the HVX for those who still need a DV tape drive (well, that, plus the DVX is still selling).
Focus is very easy on the 150, the magnified focus assist plus the graph plus the extremely strong peaking make it a breeze to pull pixel-perfect focus. I was using my BT-LH80 monitor for the indoors stuff and found that I didn't really need to, for focus accuracy; I could pull just as accurate off the expanded LCD.
The LCD itself looks to be the same, but the signal processing that it undergoes is greatly enhanced. The peaking has been amazingly improved. You can do a reasonable job of pulling accurate focus just off the LCD without even using the magnification, because the peaking just "snaps" when you hit accurate focus. I haven't heard any complaints from 200A owners about the LCD, and the 200A isn't as improved as the 170/150 are. I tried the 170 against the 200 against the 200A, and the 200A's improvement was only about half as much as the 170/150 are.
Nektonic
Veteran
Yeah, for the fall and early winter I'll stick with my A1, and in the new year we'll see what comes from CES but that 150 is sounding better the more I hear about it. It will be fun to see what the early 150 owners show us in the next few months.
In the mean time, at least I can download some of your clips and the Videomaker clips and test the FCP workflow and transcoding methods. Too bad the Panasonic AVC-HD conversion software doesn't work on Macs. Do you think that if there is enough demand from 150 users that Panasonic will program a Mac version for us Apple people?
In the mean time, at least I can download some of your clips and the Videomaker clips and test the FCP workflow and transcoding methods. Too bad the Panasonic AVC-HD conversion software doesn't work on Macs. Do you think that if there is enough demand from 150 users that Panasonic will program a Mac version for us Apple people?
If I need 4x3 DV I'll just haul the DSR-11 DVCAM deck along. The camera can output my choice of side cropped or letterboxed 4:3 to the composite out. It would be nice if there was Y/C (S-video) output on the camera but I suspect the composite would still be pretty good for creating SD on the fly this way.