Question about shooting progressive as opposed to interlaced

pronghornproductions

pronghornproductions

Active member
I shoot alot of outdoor hunting and fishing videos, when i bought my DVX100 I had planned on using 24p to shoot most of my footage, but quickly found that action shots don't look so good in progressive mode. So i have been shooting everything in 60i. My question is how do some of you set your camera up for action shots using 24p or 30p ie: shutter speed and such.................I also find it really difficult to get enough light to shoot progressive (I have the 100p so no gain up in progressive mode).
 
You're doing the right things already; 60i is better for portraying action accurately. 60P is the best, but a DVX doesn't have that, so 60i is the next best choice. And 60i is more sensitive, and you can use gain...

As for shuttter speed, for most video purposes you want to use 1/60th. If you want to "freeze" the action at some point, that's when you might want to go with a shorter shutter speed, but in general just go with the default/"shutter off" speed of 1/60.
 
The trick to shooting watchable progressive footage (I've recently started shooting 25p, though not with the DVX) is camera control.

Preparation:
If shooting 24p, set your shutter at 1/48p. 30p => 1/60. 25p => 1/50. Using a faster shutter makes the judder worse and using 1/24 (or 1/30, or 1/25) results in a look that people aren't used to - even though I think it's a nice look. People are used to 1/48p from Hollywood movies.

Execution:
a) For medium or close-up shots, if your subject is moving rapidly, just pan or move the camera to follow it precisely (such that it remains in roughly the same position relative to the frame). If your subject is not moving, you have no problem.

The background is still going to judder, but people won't notice. Their eyes will be focused on the subject. The trick is to keep the subject in the same position within the frame as much as possible. The cam should be on a tripod or your shoulder. Handheld might work, if you have steady hands, but it's not ideal.

b) For wide shots, lock down the camera and allow your subject to move at a moderate speed within the frame. If the subject is moving fast enough to cause judder, you may still have to pan the camera slowly to follow your subject. The cam should definitely be on a tripod for wide shots. Your shoulder might work if your hands are really steady, but it's not ideal.

c) If you decide to pan or move the cam without following any subject, there will be some judder. You can make it bearable by panning/moving very very slowly. You may have to try it several times until you get the perfect speed. I recall that the american cinematographer's manual has some information on how fast you can pan/move. Of course, the camera should be on a fluid head tripod, ideally.

Progressive is hard to shoot for, but when you do it right you get that "wow, this looks just like a film" feeling. At least I did.
 
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So if I wanted to film sports, and also avoid interlace completely, should i just shoot in 30p? I was going to shoot in 24pA but now I am skeptical if that will look good. I still need to do some experimenting with it to see what I think, but I just wanted some input on the technical aspect of it. In other words, what is "supposed" to work or look good. I will probably get a solid month or 2 of footage before I get FCP to edit, so I want to make sure all the footage I get is captured in the correct mode, so I can have a consistent look throughout. I don't want to have to switch modes and have footage that doesn't match. Thoughts, ideas?
 
there really is not any 'supposed to' rules. Just experiment for your self and shoot what you like, how you like.

I personally do not see the value that some place on 30p. I have not used it in any production to date and do not have plans to do so in the future. A good rule of thumb is to always shoot progressive when going to the web and the best choice for smaller files is 24p, when shooting for TV, 24p is beautiful but slightly less useful when shooting fast motion sports-like activities (unless you are going for an NFL FILMS look). 60i or 60p is better suited for sports.

If using the DVX, you do not have the liberty of 60p. In that case, I would choose 60i and probably de-interlace for the web.


Jason
 
Listen to Barry, he will save you the experimenting time... I was shoting on an hvx and qiuckly realized the advice for 30p didn't work for my outdoor adventure... I changed to 60i two weeks into the project and am glad I did, the auto focus is also faster in 60i than 30p. Feel free to turn the detail level down, NBD, it'll look soft but it's something that can easily be added in post. A lot of tv stations / networks do not like the sharpnes cranked all the way up, with a low setting they can turn it up all they want in post.

I understand you are asking about the dvx. Go 60i.
 
I suggest 60i, which is the best for slow motion. You can convert it to pretty much anything with the right software (Nattress, DVFilm, Magic Bullet, etc.).

David
 
question...if u shoot in 24p but have to shoot 60i footage for slow mo or action or watever other reason...wont u see the difference in footage? And take away from the much desired "film look"? ( i dunno i'm pretty new to all this...soon get my 100b. cant wait)
 
If you remap the 60i footage to play back at 40% speed, then it looks like film that was shot in slow motion. If you just leave it as 60i playing back at 100% speed then you're right, it would ruin the "film look". But the point of using the 60i footage is to slow it down to 40% speed (40% of 60 = 24). So it will look like 24fps playback of overcranked film footage.
 
oh ok. kool :)...
so what if u want an effect of slow mo in one section and then it sped up( in actuality it being played at normal speed) in another section within the same scene. wont the footage go from "film" look to video look, and ruin it . I hope i'm explaining this correctly.
 
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Yes, if you play 60i footage at full speed you'll lose the film look.

You should shoot your normal scenes in 24p, and only switch to 60i for those particular shots that you want to be slow-mo. Then slow that 60i footage down in post, regaining the slow-mo film look to it.
 
hmm i think i explained it incorrectly. i actually meant the in the same shot. As in, if u had a running scene or action and u slowed it down during sections of the same shot. I guess what u;d do is shoot the whole thing in 60i and put it in a 24p timeline and slow down the portions of the shot u'd want?

So what would happen if ur shooting in 24p but increase the shutter speed in order to catch the action? couldn't that be put in slo mo and not look choppy?

btw thanks for the previous answers :)
 
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Slowing 24p will always look more choppy, whatever the shutter speed, because there are only 24 motion samples per second, i.e., moving objects are much further apart between frames than they are with 60i, so you'll see a bigger difference between them and they will look more like they're jumping from place to place. This will be exacerbated the slower you go.

60i at 40% works well in 24p because each 60i field (moment in time) matches up exactly with a 24p frame.
 
gotcha. just one more question. what is the difference in the look of ur footage if u shoot in 60i and drop it in a 24p timeline, and if u shoot 24p and put in a 24p timeline? I ask because i just want to know, why get cams that can shoot 24p if u can use any cam and put standard 60i in a 24p timeline.
 
If you convert 60i to 24p, you lose vertical resolution. Interlaced footage already has more than 20% less vertical resolution anyway, and converting only sacrifices more.

Sure, some conversion software works better than others for that purpose, but you'll still lose something. (This isn't as much of a problem for using 60i for slo-mo; you lose resolution, but the footage looks different from the rest of the footage anyway, so people will be concentrating more on the motion speed than the resolution.)

Also, if you're shooting 60i, you're probably not obeying the rules of shooting 24p, with slow camera movements and zooms, because there's no penalty for quicker motion in 60i and you won't notice that you're doing it. But once you convert to 24p, you'll likely not be happy with what you see.
 
One cool thing about cameras like the HVX200 and the EX1 is you can do slow motion (720p) at, say, 60p and set it to playback at 24p, giving you true slow motion at 24p. David's right--if you shoot 24p or 30p and try to do slow motion in post, it looks awful. Plus, you lose so much vertical resolution.

A few years back, a client slowed down some DVX100a 24p footage on an NLE timeline, and the choppiness was almost secondary to the noticeable drop in resolution. It just looked very soft.

David
 
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