"Don't have to provide" - of course, when such don't exist, they can't be provided, hooray!
Songs that are pretty cool till you listen to the lyrics...
- Thread starter Mattykins
- Start date
"Don't have to provide" - of course, when such don't exist, they can't be provided, hooray!
Taupin usually wrote the lyrics first, and Elton wrote the music which the words inspired.
Every song? My point is: there are songs where lyrics matter a great deal. For most - they don't matter squat.
I could make my argument with one single word - and if you are steeped in music you'll understand it perfectly:
scat
But really this is tooooo easy. Billions upon billions of people around the globe are passionate fans of songs where they not only don't understand the deeper meaning of great lyrics - but don't understand ONE WORD of the lyrics... because they don't speak the language. Case closed.
Contrast that with another art form - poetry. Do you have a single fan of an untranslated poem in a language they don't speak? Exactly.
Music and singing is a special language all it's own, and it doesn't depend on the lexical meaning of the words. That doesn't mean that there aren't songs/artists where that IS important and IS the point. However, my main point still stands it's MUSIC >>>>>>> LYRICS (much, much, much more important).
Scat is an entirely different form of music, though. The singer doesn't convey anything through words; rather, the voice is very intentionally used as another musical instrument.
But sure, there are plenty of examples of songs being popular where the words don't matter. But the words add to the song pretty much in the same way dialogue adds to a film. Silent film has its adherents, too, but film being a visual medium doesn't in any way mean the dialogue is superfluous.
But sure, there are plenty of examples of songs being popular where the words don't matter. But the words add to the song pretty much in the same way dialogue adds to a film. Silent film has its adherents, too, but film being a visual medium doesn't in any way mean the dialogue is superfluous.
One of the most fascinating things I'd ever seen was an interview with Elton John, where he was sitting at his piano, and Taupin had just given him the lyrics to "Tiny Dancer." He sat at the piano and pounded out the melody, pretty much already fully-formed in his mind, on the fly, on camera. He was doing it in real-time, during the interview.
Yes, but scat is an example of how singing doesn't have to be about anything at all. The fact that lyrics have a lexical meaning doesn't change that - they don't really matter in the vast majority of cases... they are a means, not an end.
Not only are there plenty of songs being popular where the words don't matter - the vast majority are, which is what my original claim was. Here, I'll prove it to you:
Take any song you wish - and I'll show you a passionate fan in a foreign country who doesn't understand a word of it. He/she didn't need to know the meaning of the words. Yes, you CAN dig up a song where the words are crucial to enjoyment, and without the meaning, the foreigner can't be a fan (usually spoken-sung type songs, often political etc.) - but the point is the one I made - it is RARE. The case stands - every song you point to, I can show you an extremely dedicated fan who doesn't know the first thing about what it means. That PROVES it - case closed. You DON'T need to understand the words to hugely enjoy about +99% of songs.
So happens, I've lived in many countries and have seen it first hand. Huge fans of American (French, Italian, etc.) songs - who don't have a clue what the words mean. Nonetheless they were absolutely HUGE fans. Are you going to tell me that somehow the intensity of their enjoyment is not equal to yours because you understand the lyrics? You'd be wrong! I know from personal experience - there are songs I enjoy intensely, enormously, and where I don't understand the words, and that enjoyment is not qualitatively different from the songs I enjoy where I do understand the lyrics. Many foreign fans of music told me "this album changed my life" - even though they didn't understand the words. So you cannot say that they don't enjoy the music every bit as much as you do.
And the reasons are obvious. People - in any language - respond first and foremost to the emotion in the voice of the performer. They hear the passion, the sadness or happiness. They don't need to know if it's sadness over a lover leaving or a mother dying. They respond to the feeling, not the meaning.
I don't want to write a novel here, but briefly, there is an illusion at work. You think that you are affected by the words, but in reality you are affected by the musical elements - lyrics are just words on paper, you can assimilate them reading them silently, because that's what lexical meaning is... NOW how do they grab you??? Right - not at all, or hardly ever - which is exactly my claim. They only work because of the musical performance (vocal character etc.). They could be DIFFERENT lyrics, and they would work just as well (with RARE exceptions). They could be lyrics you can't even understand (foreign) and they would work just as well (with RARE exceptions). In fact, they could be in English, but as with so many songs people just can't hear the lyrics or misunderstand them - and it doesn't matter, they work just as well (with RARE exceptions).
In this way it is rather different from film and dialogue. Different elements in a different art form. Music and vocal performances is its own case.
"It's a lot of fuss over nothing much" - still stands. It always amuses me when someone announces grandly that "here" they see an argument "too ridiculous" to respond - because you know that soon they'll follow it with something pretty stupid
Fact is, it's a very profound subject and knee-jerk reactions are unlikely to be helpful.
Rakesh Jacob
Veteran
Yes, but scat is an example of how singing doesn't have to be about anything at all. The fact that lyrics have a lexical meaning doesn't change that - they don't really matter in the vast majority of cases... they are a means, not an end.
Not only are there plenty of songs being popular where the words don't matter - the vast majority are, which is what my original claim was. Here, I'll prove it to you:
Take any song you wish - and I'll show you a passionate fan in a foreign country who doesn't understand a word of it. He/she didn't need to know the meaning of the words. Yes, you CAN dig up a song where the words are crucial to enjoyment, and without the meaning, the foreigner can't be a fan (usually spoken-sung type songs, often political etc.) - but the point is the one I made - it is RARE. The case stands - every song you point to, I can show you an extremely dedicated fan who doesn't know the first thing about what it means. That PROVES it - case closed. You DON'T need to understand the words to hugely enjoy about +99% of songs.
So happens, I've lived in many countries and have seen it first hand. Huge fans of American (French, Italian, etc.) songs - who don't have a clue what the words mean. Nonetheless they were absolutely HUGE fans. Are you going to tell me that somehow the intensity of their enjoyment is not equal to yours because you understand the lyrics? You'd be wrong! I know from personal experience - there are songs I enjoy intensely, enormously, and where I don't understand the words, and that enjoyment is not qualitatively different from the songs I enjoy where I do understand the lyrics. Many foreign fans of music told me "this album changed my life" - even though they didn't understand the words. So you cannot say that they don't enjoy the music every bit as much as you do.
And the reasons are obvious. People - in any language - respond first and foremost to the emotion in the voice of the performer. They hear the passion, the sadness or happiness. They don't need to know if it's sadness over a lover leaving or a mother dying. They respond to the feeling, not the meaning.
I don't want to write a novel here, but briefly, there is an illusion at work. You think that you are affected by the words, but in reality you are affected by the musical elements - lyrics are just words on paper, you can assimilate them reading them silently, because that's what lexical meaning is... NOW how do they grab you??? Right - not at all, or hardly ever - which is exactly my claim. They only work because of the musical performance (vocal character etc.). They could be DIFFERENT lyrics, and they would work just as well (with RARE exceptions). They could be lyrics you can't even understand (foreign) and they would work just as well (with RARE exceptions). In fact, they could be in English, but as with so many songs people just can't hear the lyrics or misunderstand them - and it doesn't matter, they work just as well (with RARE exceptions).
In this way it is rather different from film and dialogue. Different elements in a different art form. Music and vocal performances is its own case.
"It's a lot of fuss over nothing much" - still stands. It always amuses me when someone announces grandly that "here" they see an argument "too ridiculous" to respond - because you know that soon they'll follow it with something pretty stupid
Fact is, it's a very profound subject and knee-jerk reactions are unlikely to be helpful.
Cosign!!!
slimjimmed
Well-known member
Hell, storyteliing is woven into musical tradition. Blues, Country, Folk, Pop, Choral, Rap, Hip-Hop, Jazz and it goes on and on.
I've been in bands all my life. The band that I am in now is heavily defined by our lyrics. They certainly provide context for who we are, what we love, what we hate...
They further illustrate our identity as a band.
Lyrics are often the most time-consuming and detail orientated chore when I make songs.
Since people are bringing up John Lennon, here are some lyrics that certainly provoke
a response:
God is a concept,
By which we can measure,
Our pain,
I'll say it again,
God is a concept,
By which we can measure,
Our pain,
I don't believe in magic,
I don't believe in I-ching,
I don't believe in bible,
I don't believe in tarot,
I don't believe in Hitler,
I don't believe in Jesus,
I don't believe in Kennedy,
I don't believe in Buddha,
I don't believe in mantra,
I don't believe in Gita,
I don't believe in yoga,
I don't believe in kings,
I don't believe in Elvis,
I don't believe in Zimmerman,
I don't believe in Beatles,
I just believe in me,
Yoko and me,
And that's reality.
The dream is over,
What can I say?
The dream is over,
Yesterday,
I was dreamweaver,
But now I'm reborn,
I was the walrus,
But now I'm John,
And so dear friends,
You just have to carry on,
The dream is over.
I've been in bands all my life. The band that I am in now is heavily defined by our lyrics. They certainly provide context for who we are, what we love, what we hate...
They further illustrate our identity as a band.
Lyrics are often the most time-consuming and detail orientated chore when I make songs.
Since people are bringing up John Lennon, here are some lyrics that certainly provoke
a response:
God is a concept,
By which we can measure,
Our pain,
I'll say it again,
God is a concept,
By which we can measure,
Our pain,
I don't believe in magic,
I don't believe in I-ching,
I don't believe in bible,
I don't believe in tarot,
I don't believe in Hitler,
I don't believe in Jesus,
I don't believe in Kennedy,
I don't believe in Buddha,
I don't believe in mantra,
I don't believe in Gita,
I don't believe in yoga,
I don't believe in kings,
I don't believe in Elvis,
I don't believe in Zimmerman,
I don't believe in Beatles,
I just believe in me,
Yoko and me,
And that's reality.
The dream is over,
What can I say?
The dream is over,
Yesterday,
I was dreamweaver,
But now I'm reborn,
I was the walrus,
But now I'm John,
And so dear friends,
You just have to carry on,
The dream is over.
slimjimmed
Well-known member
I recently was trying to learn a song on the guitar called Aguas De Marco by Antonio Carlos Jobim. I never understood the lyrics, which I think are in Portuguese. The song
is very beautiful and not understanding what the singer was saying didn't change the fact that I loved the meoldy, instruments, and expressiveness.
Here is the thing, though. I was on YouTube recently and came across some girl in her living room who had translated the song into English and was performing it in front of her webcam.
It changed how I thought of the song since I had a more exact context. Luckily the lyrics were as poetic as the instrumentation and it enriched my listening. It even enhanced my understanding of the person who wrote the song, since I got a direct reference to what had caused them to make such a lovely, cerebral song.
Now those words and the imagery are forever etched into my brain and unseparable from the orchestration.
If I were to see those lyrics read or written out my brain would automatically start to think of the melody. If I heard just the melody I would automatically start thinking of the lyrics and the imagery they provided.
-----------------
Since lyrics don't matter most of the time, maybe Karaoke machines should just have a bouncing ball on the screen telling you when to grunt or hum. Or maybe they shouldn't show lyrics at all?
is very beautiful and not understanding what the singer was saying didn't change the fact that I loved the meoldy, instruments, and expressiveness.
Here is the thing, though. I was on YouTube recently and came across some girl in her living room who had translated the song into English and was performing it in front of her webcam.
It changed how I thought of the song since I had a more exact context. Luckily the lyrics were as poetic as the instrumentation and it enriched my listening. It even enhanced my understanding of the person who wrote the song, since I got a direct reference to what had caused them to make such a lovely, cerebral song.
Now those words and the imagery are forever etched into my brain and unseparable from the orchestration.
If I were to see those lyrics read or written out my brain would automatically start to think of the melody. If I heard just the melody I would automatically start thinking of the lyrics and the imagery they provided.
-----------------
Since lyrics don't matter most of the time, maybe Karaoke machines should just have a bouncing ball on the screen telling you when to grunt or hum. Or maybe they shouldn't show lyrics at all?
And fans the world over deeply appreciate and passionately enjoy it all without understanding a word. Oh, and wow - the same is true for most fans right here in the good ole usa - how many really understand all lyrics to most rap or hip-hop, or even a lot of the "traditional" music? Somehow, it doesn't impede them from being dedicated profoundly affected fans.
Irrelevant. You'd be much better off putting a fraction of all that effort into the music itself. The most brilliant lyrics won't rescue mediocre music. You could write lyrics nobody understood, and if your music soars - you'll have brilliant success. Your priorities are misplaced. Music first and foremost. Then, music again. And again and again. Somewhere down the list, where barely anybody can see anyway, come the lyrics. You can take that to the bank.
I can read and APPRECIATE them, but I don't need them to appreciate the music they are set to. And I can hear and appreciate the music even if I didn't understand a word. Millions do.
I get what you're saying, but . . . all those people who love the music of songs they don't understand a word of are missing out on a component of a song, whether they know they are or not.
The words take a song to a different level. They get you to think about things that the music alone doesn't. As such, they can elevate a song to a greatness it wouldn't otherwise have.
They can also take an otherwise agreeable song and grind it into the dirt.
I guess I respond more to ideas than I do to emotion, so lyrics are very important to me. Now, when you add emotion TO idea, then you get something that's more than both. Not having the lyrics robs you of that. Part of the "art form" is indeed marrying the spoken ideas with the feeling of the music, and if you don't have both, you don't have the full force of the art.
Note, too, that you can strike a very meaningful artistic contrast between the words of a song and the feeling of the music. Some of Elvis Costello's strokes of absolute genius involve taking an upbeat, happy tune and telling a story that's morbid and dark, and that exact contrast is what makes the song work so well. If you can't understand the words, or if you don't pay any attention to them, you think it's something very much other than what it is, and you miss the point of the song's existence in the first place.
Look, maybe it's not that important to you. But I strongly disagree that the lyrics are superfluous to the song in all but rare cases. It simply isn't so. If it were, no one would bother to write words.
And just as often, finally knowing the lyrics can DIMINISH the song. It's a random process. I've often witnessed it - when a I translated that treasured song, a foreigner's reaction was often "that's what it means??? So disappointing!". Because when you don't understand the lyrics, it's like a blank slate you can project your most delightful interpretation. To see the actual thing can often be a letdown. Which is why a book to film is so tricky. A reader imagines a passage in all the richness of his inner vision - to see it on film, it rarely exceeds the beauty of his inner vision... can happen, but it's RARE. Which is why it's the music not the lyrics that are the key.
Since lyrics don't matter most of the time, maybe Karaoke machines should just have a bouncing ball on the screen telling you when to grunt or hum. Or maybe they shouldn't show lyrics at all?
Thank you for proving my case. The lyrics are there ONLY to provide material to sing - the rhythm, the stress, the intonation. Which is why we laugh at the karaoke singers - if it was about lyrics, well, we'd enjoy them just as much as the original since it's the exact same words... but the words are irrelevant, since it's the delivery that sucks, and it's all about delivery, all the time.
Or, someone will take a song, revamp the music in a way that the lyrics suggest to him/her it should be sung, and make something phenomenal and entirely different out of it. If the music was what made the song, that shouldn't be possible.
Blaine
Mr. Hollywood
As Jimi Hendrix did with Dylan's All Along the Watchtower.:thumbsup:
That one did come to mind, as did Bear McCreary's version.