i don't know about the ex-1

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Barry is 100% right .
I have a friend who is a very experienced pro over 20 years experience with a good tech background who now owns an Ex-1. In a recent conversation he said - "what's a rolling shutter".
Barry more than anyone else here has been providing important information for all of us.
Speaking of which - Barry where is that tech article you wrote describing the rolling shutter? I wamnt to turn my friend on to it.

- Lenny Levy
 
Lenilenapi said:
Barry is 100% right .
I have a friend who is a very experienced pro over 20 years experience with a good tech background who now owns an Ex-1. In a recent conversation he said - "what's a rolling shutter".
Barry more than anyone else here has been providing important information for all of us.
Speaking of which - Barry where is that tech article you wrote describing the rolling shutter? I wamnt to turn my friend on to it.

- Lenny Levy
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http://dvxuser.com/jason/CMOS-CCD/
 
for what it's worth, i do know some pros and film school grads in the film and video industry who are excited as hell about the new ex1 and gave me the deer in the headlights look when i asked them if they had found any rolling shutter problems with the camera.

anyway, i agree 100% that barry is informing and helping people with his posts. but i also don't think buck has been out of line by having a conflicting opinion.

my opinion may not carry a ton of weight in the industry but i see a fair amount of common ground between them and agree with both on most points.

with respect to buck, though, i do consider a very fast pan (to the point that would induce cmos artifacts based on what i have seen) to be a legitimate filming move and not amateur misuse of a camera. but it may be that a vibration free, well executed pan won't be a big problem for the ex1 other than some skew or stretching that may not be an issue for the viewer.
 
doofalot said:
thanks, we need more positive vibes in these forums whenever ex1 vs hvx comes up!
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Herein lies the problem. People make post after post after post after post to talk about it. And mostly it is HVX elitists who jump in and slam the other cameras for small issues regarding the main tech behind the camera. If you type in rolling shutter this is discussed in detail. This is easily the third topic this week alone to deal with the issue.

I don't know how many more times anyone can say this, if you don't like it, don't buy it. But don't get confused and think you will get the god of all cameras for less than 10k. Every system you buy pre 10k will have some issue. Wether it be the rolling shutter, the LCD screen, the low light performance, a poorly placed control, there is always going to be something that people find to ***** about.

You want to avoid the issue, buy a CCD camera, don't like the P2 cards? Buy the DVX, don't like the poor low light stuff, buy the HVX200A, Like the CMOS, buy the HV20, too cheap for you, buy the EX1, want to jam timecodes, buy the EX3, want to ramp frame rates, go with a varicam, want the digital end of stuff? By the F900, want more dynamic range, go with the F23, upset you can't get the 35mm DOF with the 2/3 camera? Go with the HVX and 35mm adapter and save a ton of money, still like the cinema end of a camera, go with an F35...oops, we just spent half a million dollars on a camera system. But there is hardly anything you can find to rant about with that bugger, the price and maybe the weight.

There are so many directions you can go, like I said, every camera has an issue. Even the glorious RED camera does. (which I forgot to mention in my flow chart above).

Simple, don't like the camera, don't buy it. Or at least try one out yourself rather than rant about it and see if you can get an image you like.
 
Barry is only helping people - especially the "non professionals" - to learn those differences so they dont find themselves in bad situations. So I dont really see the problem with what he is stating because it is certainly informative.
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For the record, I'm not dissin' Barry at all so I hope no one is taking it that way.

I'm just saying, as many others here are too, that the rolling shutter issue is not as bad as he makes it seem. Opinion vs opinion. It's cool. No disrespect. I feel VERY confident in my position because I see it done properly with good results, so I have no doubts. I think Barry and I agree, there's the potential of rolling shutter with CMOS, and there's issues with CCD too, he just seems to reeeeeeally emphasize it as something very problematic... and I'm simply saying I've seen lots of pans that are fine. That's all.

I have a friend who is a very experienced pro over 20 years experience with a good tech background who now owns an Ex-1. In a recent conversation he said - "what's a rolling shutter".
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Seriously, CMOS is no secret... any single magazine or trade journal you've picked up for the last coupla years, or forum you've visited, will talk about CMOS. Not sure how a seasoned professional in the business for many years could not know about it or the potential rolling shutter issue? Or maybe your friend who has been in the industry for 20 years and now has an EX1 and doesn't know what rolling shutter is... hasn't experienced it on his EX1? That's always a possibility.

with respect to buck, though, i do consider a very fast pan (to the point that would induce cmos artifacts based on what i have seen) to be a legitimate filming move and not amateur misuse of a camera.
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That's fine... I don't make the rules or anything... it's just a general rule for good video/film. But rules are made to be broken I guess. I just know I find fast pans unwatchable. Even long and steady film pans on the big screen that aren't skewed but just give that juttery feeling (shot on high end film cameras) makes me dizzy. I can't even think of any fast pans I've seen in the last 20 movies I've rented. Whip pans is just a non-issue for me, but if you're into fast pans, I have no issues with that, to each his own. And I'd say the EX1 wouldn't definitely not be for you. No harm no foul.
 
http://dvxuser.com/jason/CMOS-CCD/
http://dvxuser.com/jason/CMOS-CCD/http://dvxuser.com/jason/CMOS-CCD/
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http://dvxuser.com/jason/CMOS-CCD/

See, even in this article, it states:

"But the stretching, skewing, scrunching and leaning are endemic to the nature of the rolling shutter. To eliminate wobble you would need to either a) eliminate all motion, or b) use a global shutter system. Since neither of these are practical options for a video camera using a CMOS sensor, you will have to determine if the amount of wobbling that happens in video is acceptable to you."

This is an over reaction. To eliminate wobble you need to "eliminate ALL motion"? You mean if you simply handhold the EX1 and carefully point it at your dog, you're gonna get some degree of wobble? Hardly. It then goes on to say you have to determine how much wobble you can live with. This is an absurd assumption to imply that any kind of motion whatsoever will induce a wobbling effect. The camera would be a joke then. And for people coming to the board for information on the EX1 and then read that with CMOS chips any kind of motion whatsoever will wobble the image is extreeeeeemely misleading. Just because it may wobble if you vibrate the camera or shake it while filming doesn't mean it will wobble if you're merely holding it in your hand with some motion.
 
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people in this forum will only stop complaining about SONY's CMOS rolling shutter when Pana roll out their next generation camera which use CMOS chips. :evil:

Who knows??? The world is round. Anything can happen.
 
Ahhh, but they have! http://www.camcorderinfo.com/conten...-HDC-HS100-and-HDC-SD100-Camcorders-35263.htm# From my experiences watching these industries, the companies often put the latest stuff on their lower/mid range models and see how the market receives it and eventually they'll integrate it through their range of offerings.

"For the first time, Panasonic will feature a three-CMOS imaging system, which is reported to increase sensitivity in low light. Both are expected to become available in September 2008."
 
Buck Forester said:
Gracias, me too! And my wife is demanding I have success with it after all this $$ I'm investing in this stuff! Ha!

I see your point too, Barry, but again I just have a different perception of the pro market (and admittedly you're a pro in the truest sense of the word and I'm just learning). But common sense tells me it can't be THAT different from the still camera world. :Þ
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I think you may have a misconception of video pros. I've never been a still photographer but have been making a living with film and video cameras for quite some time and to be honest most pros don't have any brand loyalty. We tend to gravitate to whatever gets the job done best or in some cases whatever the client wants it shot on. For instance in the still world often the client won't specify what camera you must shoot on, as where in video, they'll tell you it's a varicam or an F 900 job or a Red Job. Often times with a feature, we have more input and influence on the camera, but when I shoot broadcast, you shoot on whatever the shows spec sheet says and often at the settings established long ago. I have shoot in Philly on monday, I don't even know what the camera is yet, but as soon as I find out, I guarantee it, I'll know it.

Most pros take the attitude that all cameras are more or less the same to operate and it's your job to know how to use them. Most never want to be known as the "EX3 guy" or the "HVX guy" or the "Varicam Guy". When someone calls me about a job and asks me if I know this camera or that, I always say yes. Because, by the time the gig comes up, I'll know the camera inside and out - that's part of my job. I couldn't care less if it's Sony or Panasonic as long as it's suited to the gig. That's why many pros constantly research what's the best gear at the moment. As far as someone not knowing about a rolling shutter, well sadly enough it's true. I find DP's who come more from Gaffing backgrounds don't research cameras like those of us who came up through camera.

Granted each brand has its looks and features but whenever there's a groundbreaking feature, we drop what we're using in droves. I'm sure many on this board were once devout PD 150 believers and believed it could do no wrong until the DVX came along. But when the feature sets in the pro/con columns are competitive then you get folks talking getting in a pissing match over their gear. I do believe folks objectivity gets further clouded after they buy gear. How do you tell someone their camera sucks after they dumped 10g into it.

Anyway, I started back in the day when most pro jobs (at least in the fiction world) were rarely done by owner/operators but with rented gear. So brand loyalty was the brand that made you look good. One year it was Cooke, the next Tilt and Shift, the next Master Primes, Etc. Now you can get broadcast results for a fraction of what it used to be so you got several times more owner/ops out there than before. Hell even the varicam is half its intro price.

But I think the sense of brand loyalty and rabid fanboyism comes from those on this site who are not quite seasoned pros but put their life savings into one camera package. You see that alot in the post world where people have invested six figures into an Avid Meridian only to have someone's 20g system a year later run circles around it. Yet they'll still defend their Avid to the grave. But those days are numbered.

I hope they begin to see their cameras more like tools and currency than a old dog named Yeller. And I think it's beginning to happen more as I see alot of action in the market place, people selling and upgrading (regardless of brand). The EX1 has switched quite few people over from the Panny market and sure once Panny counters they'll return. And so it goes on. But in the end, with the pressure from Red and other developers, I think the big two can't keep parcelling out a feature here and a feature there if they hope to compete down the road.

I think it's embarrassing that you'll have to add an external box(convergent design) to record 160mb to your EX1 to record to off the shelf CF cards. It shows the tech is there for a cheaper and better idea. That CF box should be in the camera. It's this parcelling out of tech that I find so heinous with the big two that I never experienced back when it was all film. If someone had an edge be it Arri, Panavision, Aaton, Fuji or Kodak, they came out with all they had. Panny or Sony could design a CF card camera that records 10 bit tomorrow. Yet they choose to drip their know how. And it's this business philosophy that makes me loyal to none.

I think the best bit of tech development is what's happening with the low cost adaptor world. I've bought and sold four in the last year because they just keep on whipping each other's asses every month. Sure I've incurred shipping costs but I can rest assured I'm getting the best they can do.

Anyway back on topic. I finally got to test an EX1. I love it. More than my HVX. There, I said it. It has its limitations as we all know but for most of what I do its image just kicks my HVX's butt upside in just about every respect. And the lens - fuggeddaboutit. So much for loyalty. I'll still keep my HVX because virtually nobody is asking for the EX1 in NYC. That'll change in time. So come July, I'm putting my money down on an EX 3. And who knows what'll sell and buy come Fall.
 
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Tim,

It's good to hear someone who understands the concept of brand loyalty (or lack thereof)

I, like you, use whatever is suited for the job. I own an HV20 and that's it. Everything else I rent. I keep wanting to buy an HVX but at the same time I don't want to drop that money in exchange for a week and change with a Panavision.

I've shot film for a while. Bolex, Aaton LTR, Aaton XTR prod. I'm actually going down to BandPro in NYC sometime this summer to have a demo with the F23. Been with an F900 and loved it.

I've been with the EX1, a DVX, and HVX, some prosumer by canon. Never with a Red yet, but I might hire one rather than an F23 because it has the 35mm chip and I don't need to worry about the Pro35 adapter.

The market is ever-changing. RED stepped it up with the 4k. And people are answering. Sony, since their breakup with Panavision is releasing the F35, which I will be demoing as soon as it get released. I get excited every time I get a call from BandPro. And Cinealta has a 4K in the works. The F35 is the ownable version of the Genesis.

Dalsa has a great 35mm camera as well. The thompson viper cam is excellent but has an odd greenish tinge to the footage. The F23 is amazing in low light and has a superb dynamic range. Something the F35 will not be that amazing with. But there is an inherent difference between the CCD cam and a one chip 35mm.

You can't forget about Arri as well. Can't remember their little cam though.

Brands change as it goes. Like Tim said, use the camera that gets the job done. Now I wouldn't even consider using a DVX now that more and more projects require VFX to be done. And generally HD is the way to go.

Right now I need to look into the RED or an F35 to rent for a shoot. Depending on what camera does what I need it to do and what I like better. The EX3 with a relay (as soon as that comes out) might be an option as well. Cross that bridge when we get to it.

Really I find it kinda strange to buy cameras that change so fast. The only actual purchases I have been getting quotes on has been on the F23, the Red, and the F35. Red is ever-changing. But the CineAlta flagships only change every few years. But that is a totally different market than those who would buy and HVX.

Elitism really gets you no where when you move into the big leagues. Or are even just shooting your own stuff. With dozens of things to choose from, it sometimes just depends on the job. Which is why I own an HV20. Does everything I need it to do. And when I have a large project, I rent exactly what I need.
 
What I love about these prosumer cameras is when I sell it, I don't lose much compared to my original purchase price. With adaptors, I get about 90 percent back! Lenses, if I take care of them 80-90 percent back. I tested the waters on Craiglist and I got so many people wanting to march over with cash to pay 4G for my beat up (but still working HVX). For me considering the kit rentals and mileage I've gotten it is a great deal. So camera churn on that level doesn't bother me much. But those returns don't hold so much for high end cameras and I don't want to get stuck pimping the wrong tool for the gig just to pay the note. So once it gets to 2/3" or above I'm still renting. I'd only consider buying if I land a long term series contract that will give me the kit rental.

But the EX3, Ultimate and Relay lens, I feel is just the right combo that'll fill that niche for indies who want to get bang for the buck. It'll meet the needs of clients below the RED threshold but need something cinematic.

Now what I really want to see is someone invent is 35mm lens mount with a chip on the back, that you can attach a CF BOX to and switch out a different one when it gets dated. A dockable system.
 
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It's quite true. I just wouldn't use a prosumer enough to justify the purchase of one. The good news with getting a pro package is that you can rent it well. Especially if you cut a deal with a rental house. But there are so many REDs on the market that isn't likely to happen. But with large rigs, you can work out deals nicely. But then again, those are huge investments.

(End thread Jack)
 
Tim Naylor, thank you for the thoughtful post. After reading your post I'm sure I have a misconception about 'pro' brand loyalties. I think it is more so as you say, it's the non-seasoned guys who become rabid fanboys and defend their gear (and purchase). I have just seen it so much on these forums that I'm sorta blown away and assumed it must be universal to the industry. I'm glad to know my perception was wrong. I have always been a believer that it's not a brand or single piece of equipment, it's learning the trade and your equipment to make the best. I think anyone with the desire and knowledge can randomly pick any of these cameras and make magic, despite any limiting traits of the individual cameras.
 
Personally

Personally

Im not a fan of the EX1, we shot all weekend long...Your basic product w/ talent in the background shots. I see noise in the footage even when there was enough light to go negative gain.

I didn't have any issues with the shutter or sensors, just the noise in the footage got to me.
 
Ryan Harrell said:
Im not a fan of the EX1, we shot all weekend long...Your basic product w/ talent in the background shots. I see noise in the footage even when there was enough light to go negative gain.

I didn't have any issues with the shutter or sensors, just the noise in the footage got to me.
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that is an interesting complaint about the ex1, i don't think i've come across anyone yet that was happy with the shutter but unhappy with the light sensitivity
 
kubalsky said:
Barry,

How did you come to the decision to buy a RED camera when it has a CMOS chip?
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For many reasons, not the least of which is that it was the most affordable 35mm cine-style camera out there.

Second, as may be evident at this point, I studied the daylights out of the rolling shutter issue to the point where I think I understand every possible compromise that can come into play.

Third, the Red One, being a heavy/bulky pro camera, is not going to be subject to many of the types of circumstances that cause the issue. It's so heavy that it inherently counteracts the vibration issue. It does skew, and it does suffer from magnetic HMI/fluo problems. But since the Red is entirely a cinema camera, I could control what circumstances it got used in and could prepare for those eventualities.

The Red is not my first CMOS camera, I previously bought an HV20. CMOS has its merits, it has many merits. But it also has its flaws.

I got rid of the HV20 for many reasons, one of which was that I found the rolling shutter completely unusable in many scenarios that I would have wanted to use the HV20 in. The HV20 being a light/compact handheld camera that would be shooting anywhere and everywhere, the rolling shutter made it problematic.

The Red, on the other hand, is not a light/compact handheld camera. It was designed to be used in specifically controlled environments.

See, contrary to what some people seem to want to think, I have already bought into (and sold out of) the rolling shutter thing. I'm not some pundit poking from the sidelines, I delved into it, I jumped into it with both feet, and I jumped back out of the pot.

The EX1 I find bothersome because it's small enough that people are encountering the issues, and as many people have pointed out, you DON'T necessarily know of those issues before getting into it.

So, I keep saying -- if you know what you're getting into, you're empowered to make the decision about whether it's the right product for you. If you don't know, and you're going in based on the assumption that "hey, a pro camera is a pro camera," then sooner or later you're going to end up pooched. I'd rather have people know in advance what could happen, and have them prepared for it, than have them come on here later saying "what the bleep happened to my footage?"

I guess some people don't like that. I don't apologize.
 
With all due respect, Barry - you're being so enormously biased against the EX1, that I find it hard to believe you don't have your own agenda in it (guess which).

Below $15,000 there is no single camera that could even be compared with the XDCAM-EX. POINT.
 
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