Indoor Shoot for Feature - Choosing the Audio Equipment

A

armadillo

Well-known member
Hi,

I am about to make the audio decisions for the indoor portion of an upcoming micro budget feature. Indoor represents approximately 80% of the dialogue involved, so I am thinking that I can rent a shotgun for outdoors if required (possibly purchase if my scheduling shows a purchase to be a justified expense).

Anyway, this is the package I have come up with that I hope will allow me to achieve what I need for the indoor scenes.

Oktava MK012a (hyper cap) - approx 200
Gitzo 7680c Boompole - approx 220
Headphones (closed) - approx 100
Good XLR Cables - approx 50
Rycote BBG - approx 125

Subtotal - 700ish...

I have a couple minor questions...

- Can I do without the KSSM - I will rarely be camera mounting the microphone (if ever)

- Can I do without the Windjammer - If i shoot outside, I'd be renting or buying a decent shotgun and probably a jammer suited to fit that mic

And the Big Question

- Can I pull this off without a mixer.
- I do realize that mixers exist for a reason and that the pros wouldn't use them if they didn't add value. But money will be an issue so if it is POSSIBLE to get feature-worthy audio from the shoot with careful design, etc, I welcome any TIPS for getting optimal sound with this setup.

Thanks as always to anyone with advice.
 
armadillo said:
- Can I do without the Windjammer - If i shoot outside, I'd be renting or buying a decent shotgun and probably a jammer suited to fit that mic
Click to expand...
That really depends on how windy the location will be. Foam windsheilds are practically useless for exteriors, since even the slightest breeze will slice right through them. If the location has only a light breeze, then a windshield will do. Stronger winds will require a moderate wind cover or a windjammer. Bringing a windjammer will potentially cost a great deal less than not bringing one, should the wind pick up unexpectedly.

armadillo said:
- Can I pull this off without a mixer.
Click to expand...
I'll give that a qualified "yes." You can run one or two microphones into the camcorder and adjust the levels on the side of the camera. However, the camera preamps will greatly increase the overall noise of your tracks, and you will be unable to easily adjust levels during a take. Limiters and high-pass filters are also important considerations when deciding whether to bring a mixer. Others will surely disagree, but I would strongly reccomend using a mixer. Personally, I even use a mixer on the front-end of my FR-2.

You can record production sound without a mixer, but using a mixer will greatly increase your efficiency and the quality of the final product. Its rather like a carpenter deciding between buying a hammer, or using a rock to pound in nails.

Mixers will continue to be neccessary until manufacturers stop putting bargain-bin audio circuitry on camcorders.
 
SMuir said:
That really depends on how windy the location will be. Foam windsheilds are practically useless for exteriors, since even the slightest breeze will slice right through them. If the location has only a light breeze, then a windshield will do. Stronger winds will require a moderate wind cover or a windjammer. Bringing a windjammer will potentially cost a great deal less than not bringing one, should the wind pick up unexpectedly.


I'll give that a qualified "yes." You can run one or two microphones into the camcorder and adjust the levels on the side of the camera. However, the camera preamps will greatly increase the overall noise of your tracks, and you will be unable to easily adjust levels during a take. Limiters and high-pass filters are also important considerations when deciding whether to bring a mixer. Others will surely disagree, but I would strongly reccomend using a mixer. Personally, I even use a mixer on the front-end of my FR-2.

You can record production sound without a mixer, but using a mixer will greatly increase your efficiency and the quality of the final product. Its rather like a carpenter deciding between buying a hammer, or using a rock to pound in nails.

Mixers will continue to be neccessary until manufacturers stop putting bargain-bin audio circuitry on camcorders.
Click to expand...

Do you think the Sound Devices MM1 would be a vast improvement over no mixer?
 
I'm with Oleg on this; any mixer/preamp is better than none, and the MM1 is better than many.

If you poke around some of the darker corners of the `net, you may be able to find a good price on a used Shure FP-33. They're heavy and noisier than some newer production mixers, but they're reliable workhorses.
 
I think you can live without a mixer. It makes setup easier too. Less things to break and needing batteries.

Yes, you may have SLIGHTLY more noise on your tracks, but, if your audience is paying attention to the 4 dB increase in noise, you have much bigger problems anyway. I wouldn't record foley or SFX through the camera preamps, but for dialog, it's totally acceptable. (I'm talking about a dvx here, any other cameras, I couldn't vouch for)

As long as you get good levels and get the mic in the zone you'll be just FINE.

If I had a choice between having the best audio gear in the world and a crappy boom op, or, the worst audio gear and a world-class boom op, I'd ALWAYS take the good boom op.
 
The gear you listed will work well for your sort of situation.

You can get very good quality going directly into the camera. It's simple and if you shoot when it's quiet (no dogs barking, or airplanes overhead, or buzzes from the frig...) you'll get nice clean audio: I have done this many times using this method. I take it the camera is a DVX or HVX, some other cameras have very poor sounding preamps. Make sure you engage the ALC, automatic Level control. It's really a limiter and prevents your signal from peaking and making the audio nasty sounding. Have your average levels hit in the middle of the meter and you'll be fine. Route the signal to both tracks L&R. Set one volume a little hotter and one a little quieter, all averaging within the central portion of the meter bars.

You do not need a windjammer or anything inside, that's for outside where the air is moving. The rycote is optional for inside, oustide it's mandatory and may not be enough depending upon conditions.

I agree, a good boom op will make the difference.

Something to also consider: If your shots have the actors basically standing and delivering (in one place with little movement) you can put the boom on a C-stand, that'll make sure there's little noise from any operator movement. I do this, it works well with hot signals. The trick is setting levels between actors in a 2 shot. On OTS favor the actor who is facing the camera. Other than that just boom it normally.
 
10s said:
The gear you listed will work well for your sort of situation.

You can get very good quality going directly into the camera. It's simple and if you shoot when it's quiet (no dogs barking, or airplanes overhead, or buzzes from the frig...) you'll get nice clean audio: I have done this many times using this method. I take it the camera is a DVX or HVX, some other cameras have very poor sounding preamps. Make sure you engage the ALC, automatic Level control. It's really a limiter and prevents your signal from peaking and making the audio nasty sounding. Have your average levels hit in the middle of the meter and you'll be fine. Route the signal to both tracks L&R. Set one volume a little hotter and one a little quieter, all averaging within the central portion of the meter bars.

You do not need a windjammer or anything inside, that's for outside where the air is moving. The rycote is optional for inside, oustide it's mandatory and may not be enough depending upon conditions.

I agree, a good boom op will make the difference.

Something to also consider: If your shots have the actors basically standing and delivering (in one place with little movement) you can put the boom on a C-stand, that'll make sure there's little noise from any operator movement. I do this, it works well with hot signals. The trick is setting levels between actors in a 2 shot. On OTS favor the actor who is facing the camera. Other than that just boom it normally.
Click to expand...

Sorry 10s, I disagree strongly on ALC. It will cause audible pumping and I would advise never using it unless you are shooting news by yourself with no sound mixer.

My main sound mixer and I always check the ALC on every new camera we shoot with and so far, ALC almost always causes audio pumping and sounds bad, especially on cheap cameras like most DVXers shoot with.

Smart call on offsetting your two audio channels, IF you are only using one mic. If you use two mics...

Best,

Dan
 
Whoa, I dont see a shockmount on that list! Ktek makes some good ones, such as the oft recommended KSSM (I own one for my mkh50).

Second, ditto to getting the MM1! You'll want the preamp, limiter and cutoff. Plus, the audio guy can have headphones whilst 20 feet away from the camera and can adjust audio on the fly if need be. Plus, when you can pony up for a mixer the MM1 still has value for use as boom op headphone.
 
10s said:
The gear you listed will work well for your sort of situation.

You can get very good quality going directly into the camera. It's simple and if you shoot when it's quiet (no dogs barking, or airplanes overhead, or buzzes from the frig...) you'll get nice clean audio: I have done this many times using this method. I take it the camera is a DVX or HVX, some other cameras have very poor sounding preamps. Make sure you engage the ALC, automatic Level control. It's really a limiter and prevents your signal from peaking and making the audio nasty sounding. Have your average levels hit in the middle of the meter and you'll be fine. Route the signal to both tracks L&R. Set one volume a little hotter and one a little quieter, all averaging within the central portion of the meter bars.

You do not need a windjammer or anything inside, that's for outside where the air is moving. The rycote is optional for inside, oustide it's mandatory and may not be enough depending upon conditions.

I agree, a good boom op will make the difference.

Something to also consider: If your shots have the actors basically standing and delivering (in one place with little movement) you can put the boom on a C-stand, that'll make sure there's little noise from any operator movement. I do this, it works well with hot signals. The trick is setting levels between actors in a 2 shot. On OTS favor the actor who is facing the camera. Other than that just boom it normally.
Click to expand...

Thanks.

Yes, my set design allows for boom mics or other mics to be planted much of the time. For about 80% of the dialogue a boom operator will be more of a hindrance than a help.

However, I am looking at capturing sound on the Canon XHA1, not the HVX or DVX. Does that make things a wash?
 
puredrifting said:
Sorry 10s, I disagree strongly on ALC. It will cause audible pumping and I would advise never using it unless you are shooting news by yourself with no sound mixer.

My main sound mixer and I always check the ALC on every new camera we shoot with and so far, ALC almost always causes audio pumping and sounds bad, especially on cheap cameras like most DVXers shoot with.

Smart call on offsetting your two audio channels, IF you are only using one mic. If you use two mics...

Best,

Dan
Click to expand...

Sorry Dan I've used the ALC for many years, it doesn't pump like my dbx compressor, because it's a peak limiter, & they don't pump, they just stop the signal from getting louder. When I first got the camera I didn't turn it on because of my experience with other cameras where they pump, but then I heard the audio from a fellow DVX user and was pleasantly surprised. Other cameras have an "AGC" Automatic Gain Control, (a different electronic circut) and they are terrible as you describe, but the DVX/HVX isn't like a normal cheap camera in this particular area, it's better.
 
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I shot a 45 minute film recently using a mixer only when I had to get more than two mics into the camera. Generally the sound was better without the mixer- however, the mixer was an 8 channel Alesis generally used for music production rather than location sound.

I used a light stand/ boom pole to mount the Oktava as mentioned, when actors were not moving much. I even managed to clamp an extra Oktava to the pole to mic two actors properly, worked great, just slid the clamp to the proper place and angled the mic toward the actor. When actors were moving I used 3 Audio Technica wireless lavs (PA type) into the mixer. Come to think of it, maybe the lavs were the problem rather than the mixer. But the sound was still reasonably good.
 
armadillo said:
Thanks.

Yes, my set design allows for boom mics or other mics to be planted much of the time. For about 80% of the dialogue a boom operator will be more of a hindrance than a help. Hopefully someone here has experience with this model.

However, I am looking at capturing sound on the Canon XHA1, not the HVX or DVX. Does that make things a wash?
Click to expand...

I have not used that particular camera so I can only suggest general guidance. You must test it's audio ability before you shoot, it'll take a half hour to shoot and put a 5 minute clip into the computer and listen to the results.

Maybe the Canon has a good built in limiter like the DVX/HVX, I don't know, so you'll have to check it out. If not, then you'll need a limiter. A limiter stops the signal from going into the red. You simply cannot have that happen. Some so-called limiters also have an automatic gain and it's horrible because it raises the gain when silence occurs and is absolutely ugly. If the camera has this feature it must be turned off always and a mixer with a limiter needs to be used.

Someone suggested a shock mount for the mic, YES! especially for the Oktava, it's a very sensative & FRAGILE mic, take good care of it. Reallocate the Rycote funds to the K-tech mount.
 
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If you plan to use the Oktava, you should consider that it is fairly sensitive in regards to handling noise and wind. This means you really do need a good shockmount, and may even need wind protection indoors if you might be moving the mic (on the boompole, say) even moderately quickly, or if people will be moving around quickly near the mic.

For this indoor wind protection, I find that lesser solutions like a foam windscreen CAN be effective. But it depends on the situation. Keep aware of the possibility, and have at least a contingency plan!
 
10s said:
Sorry Dan I've used the ALC for many years, it doesn't pump like my dbx compressor, because it's a peak limiter, & they don't pump, they just stop the signal from getting louder. When I first got the camera I didn't turn it on because of my experience with other cameras where they pump, but then I heard the audio from a fellow DVX user and was pleasantly surprised. Other cameras have an "AGC" Automatic Gain Control, (a different electronic circut) and they are terrible as you describe, but the DVX/HVX isn't like a normal cheap camera in this particular area, it's better.
Click to expand...
alc on panasoics are just soft limmietre that kick around -6 dbfs
on sony small cameras - lke pd-150 itwas hard limiter that kick at -2 dbfs
what hapence whith the new models - i really dont want to know anymore :-)
 
10s said:
I have not used that particular camera so I can only suggest general guidance. You must test it's audio ability before you shoot, it'll take a half hour to shoot and put a 5 minute clip into the computer and listen to the results.

Maybe the Canon has a good built in limiter like the DVX/HVX, I don't know, so you'll have to check it out. If not, then you'll need a limiter. A limiter stops the signal from going into the red. You simply cannot have that happen. Some so-called limiters also have an automatic gain and it's horrible because it raises the gain when silence occurs and is absolutely ugly. If the camera has this feature it must be turned off always and a mixer with a limiter needs to be used.

Someone suggested a shock mount for the mic, YES! especially for the Oktava, it's a very sensative & FRAGILE mic, take good care of it. Reallocate the Rycote funds to the K-tech mount.
Click to expand...

According to my research, the A1 records at 48 khz, 16 bit.

I am totally not a sound guy but trying to complete a crash course really quickly...
 
i think another microphone you should look at is the rode nt3 hyper cardiod microhpone it is such a wonderful mic, i realize that alot of people use the same mic for outdoors that they use indoor but as i'm sure you know that is a huge mistake and yes you can get by without a MIXER, it's not mandatory, especially if it is going to make you spend more money, as long as you are monitoring your sound through some really good headphones there should not be a problem at all remember hyper cardioid mic are better for indoor use search around the internet and you'll find what i am saying is the truth ,hope this helps.
 
DIRECTORDEVIN said:
i think another microphone you should look at is the rode nt3 hyper cardiod microhpone it is such a wonderful mic, i realize that alot of people use the same mic for outdoors that they use indoor but as i'm sure you know that is a huge mistake and yes you can get by without a MIXER, it's not mandatory, especially if it is going to make you spend more money, as long as you are monitoring your sound through some really good headphones there should not be a problem at all remember hyper cardioid mic are better for indoor use search around the internet and you'll find what i am saying is the truth ,hope this helps.
Click to expand...

Agreed. I was definitely planning on using a different setup for the outdoor dialogue portions.

What in your experience makes the Rode NT3 superior? There seems to be an Oktava MK012 consensus on the boards from what I can tell. Do you prefer the Rode's sound?
 
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