EX1 Long Gop issues and compared to Sony Z7 and HVX201

rladkani

New member
Hi

I recently tested the Ex1 to the Sony HVR Z7 to the Panasonic HVX201AE and found some very interesting problems regarding the EX1. We shot all kinds of scenes incl. Indoors, Outdoors, Sunset, Dusk all in 25p...and watched all the results on a Baselight System projected in 2k on a big cinema screen. The tests were done for an upcoming cinema documentary.

You can find all sorts of shots and comparisons here

http://www.richardladkani.com/cameratest_main/cameratest/Cameratest_EX1_-_HVR-Z7.html

In Detail: At first we all loved the EX1 for sharpness, latitude, color rendition and especially for its low-light capabilities. But all this love went away when we looked at shots were the camera moved. On slow pans across f.e. a green grass in the foreground and a city in the background the image suddenly went totally blury. At first we thought the camera was out of focus but as soon as the camera stopped the stellar sharpness was back. On the next telephoto pan across the city skyline all detail was lost as long as the camera moved. It was just a big blur. But it wasn't motion blurr due to the 25p it was a compression issue. On a shot watching cars drive through the frame the cars looked like ghost images. Totally unsharp but when I started panning with the cars the were totally sharp again. What was the worst though was panning across a field of grass. All detail was gone as long as the camera moved and it was back when the camera stopped. But the killer was when shooting handheld on a second day of tests. The person was walking and as log as he moved with the camera everyting wa fine but as soon as the camera would move out of sync with the person he went blurry.Again it did not look like motion blur. When looking at it in single frames we noticed that only every 8th frame was totally sharp everything else was blurred. We compared all this to identical shots with a Sony HVR Z7 on HDV and the problem was negligible. You could see some motion blurs but nothing that would feel unnatural. The images on the Z7 remained sharp throughout much of the shots even though both cameras use LongGop encoding. When contemplating about this problems my conclusion is that the EX1 due to its higher resolution also has a stronger compression. When the camera starts moving the compression suddenly kicks in and makes it highly visible. Even minor, very slow movements cause this problem. We watched the footage on a 25foot screen which made it highly visible but even on a 42" Plasma a home it was very noticeable. I am deeply disappointed about this as this LongGop Issue makes the EX1 unusable for big screen projects. The HDV performed much better even though it didn't have the latitude. But compared on a splitscreen with the EX1 it seems to be the better choice.

Has anybody seen this problem or any thoughts about it? I would have preferred the EX1 because it also offer 60p slowmo and is very good in low light. But I can't live with these blurr issues unless some solution is found.

Best wishes

Richard Ladkani


www.richardladkani.com
 
Yup, I've seen it, when the shutter was off or set to a very high dwell angle.

Try shooting with 11.25º shutter and you will find every frame sharp and clear.

I have noticed that the blurring comes from the LCD screen's response time. There's some blurring when the video is rolling, but when I stop on a frame--any frame--it's clear and crisp.

I've been doing a lot more shooting with high speed shutter and it looks great, albeit a bit strobe-ish. There are tradeoffs between these extremes. You just have to try different shutter angles until you find a look that tells your story best.
 
Softening in motion is somethng Barry observed on a scope, but it wasn't really happening - it was only the slight skew of the rolling shutter that was fooling the scope to give the appearance of softening. In other works, the scope was not really the right tool for measuring the softening on this camera. This is well documented in other threads so I won't go into it here.

This caused all sorts of hysteria about motion problems with the EX1. From all of my extensive testing, they do not exist.

I repeat that image softening DOES NOT HAPPEN on the EX1 by my observation, but I'd love to see examples of what you are experiencing.
 
Richard,

I looked at your car footage. This has nothing to do with long GOP compression. It's all motion blur.

Quite simply, you had the settings on your EX1 wrong.

You clearly had the shutter turned off on the EX1 (1/25 sec), whereas the Z7 had the shutter set correctly to 180° (1/50 sec).

Examining the motion blur on your EX1 footage, you can see that spatially, each frame ends where the next frame begins. This is indicative of a 360° shutter rather than the 180° you claim. There is no other explanation for what I see. I superimposed two successive frames of each clip in Photoshop to double check this. There is no question about it.

There's a switch on the front of the EX1 that overrides any menu setting - it will turn the shutter off even if you have it set to 1/50 in the menu. Are you sure that switch was set to on? If it was, you had a faulty EX1.

I would advise you retest the EX1 and make sure that the shutter is set correctly. You will not see this amount of motion blur if the shutter is truly 180°

Again, there is no way that compression or the fallacious "motion softening" had anything to do with this. It's all about exposure time. Get it correct and the EX1 will look worlds better than the Z7.

If you have any questions, or if I can be of assistance in guiding your retests, please feel free to contact me. I would be happy to walk you through the Photoshop process to determine shutter angle using successive stills.
 
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Yes,
Not to mention th camera is shipped with the shutter switch off. Like Matthew mentioned, it's in an odd place in front of the camera base.
 
The shutter was off! Aaaahh... sighs with relief.
And once again the sun sets and there is peace in the land of EX1 owners and 24p believers.

But it was an uneasy peace as, sure enough more judder threads lurked on the horizon.
 
There's a switch on the front of the EX1 that overrides any menu setting - it will turn the shutter off even if you have it set to 1/50 in the menu. Are you sure that switch was set to on? If it was, you had a faulty EX1.

When I set the shutter switch to on, a message "cannot proceed" appear on the LCD. Also when I push the Gain switch on camera, again this "cannot proceed" message appear. What wouid be the cause for this.

Thanks
 
When I set the shutter switch to on, a message "cannot proceed" appear on the LCD. Also when I push the Gain switch on camera, again this "cannot proceed" message appear. What wouid be the cause for this.

Thanks

I got that strange "cannot proceed" when media was low, like remaining 4 minutes and alarm started to blink. All functions were locked, very weird. Then I locked the card and I could adjust shutter, etc...

Ulisses
 
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