Recording surround sound in the field

Buck Forester

Buck Forester

Well-known member
Howdy. I know nothing of recording sound, yet. I just ordered a Sony EX1. I also ordered a Sony PCM-D1 portable recorder for separate field recording. But for my camera mic I'm not sure which way to go. I'll be doing wilderness adventures so I need to go light. I want to make sure the sound quality is not just okay, but very good. I will be doing some field narratation but I'm more interested in capturing the beauty of natural sounds around me. Also, if possible I'd like to record in surround sound. I'm very ignorant on this stuff so I don't know if that's pretty much standard, or if it's nearly impossible. Any advice is appreciated. Gracias!
 
If you are so ignorant why did you order before asking? Forget surround, first it's sort of bunk for what your talking about doing and second you have no way to record it since neither the recorded you ordered nor the camera will record more than two channels. I'm not sure the D1 is the best choice for recording ambiance's, but since it's on it's way I would see if there is any decent shock-mount windscreen for it. Your not going to get decent ambience recordings with any mic attached to the camera. It's going to be picking up camera noise etc if it's wide enough to pick up a good BG track. The on camera mic you should use for picking up interviews etc. I would actually recommend strongly that you add a sound person to your crew, though I have the feeling that it's not going to happen. Your biggest problem with the D1 is going to be to limit handling and wind noise.
 
Gracias, Noiz! You asked why did I order before asking... but I haven't. That's why I'm asking. I'm building as I go. The PCM-D1 I'm sure about... I know another guy doing similar stuff that I'm doing, who's been doing it professionally for a long while, and he raves about the PCM-D1. I'm looking at my "camera" mic. The D1 won't be attached to my camera, it will be set up independently, non-time coded, in strategic places as I adventure. I'm looking at my on-camera mic set up... first I was leaning towards the Sennheiser MKH-416, and I still might, but I'm gathering advice for other possibilities, including surround sound. Durability and lightweight are key. The PCM-D1 is very small and light and gets very good reviews (from what I've read, if you feel otherwise, I'm all ears), so it sounds ideal for the purpose I'll be using it for. I'm simply inquiring about surround sound possibilities, not knowing anything about it or if it's even practical, but it's not a requirement on my part.
 
Oops, I also forgot to mention most of the time I'll be solo in the wilds on multi-day trips... backpacking, climbing, and kayaking. Maybe I'll have a small crew someday, but not starting out! :^D
 
None of the devices you mention can record surround sound. You are going to need at least 6 discrete channels, and a mic for each channel which is why very few people record location audio in surround.

Go for stereo.
 
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Thanks, tigeba! Yes, I realize the PCM-D1 does not record surround, as well as the MKH-416... but before I bought the 416 I was wondering if there was a "practical" surround sound solution for the field that I'm not aware of. I will be doing some narration too so the 416 is probably what I'll stick with. From what you and Noiz are saying, it doesn't seem there's a practical surround sound solution, which is okay. I was just looking at some of the high-def producer submission specs for Discovery HD, Nat'l Geo HD, etc., and they say it's played in surround sound but I'm not sure if that's mandatory for acquisition or not. I really do appreciate your taking the time to respond.
 
I'm with noise on this one: forget surround-sound, at least for the time being. Even stereo recording is probably a stretch, given the limitations of working solo with a camera-mounted mic.

That being said, Holophone's H4-mini can record circle-surround encoded 5.1 tracks to a stereo recording (I believe its Pro-logic II compatible), but I doubt it'll perform satisfactorily for nature recording (having not tried it personally). The H2-Pro is well suited to nature recording, provided there's not a lot of wind, but it carries a hefty price tag and requires 8 recorder tracks (7.1 surround). I've also tried the H3-D (5.1, lower price), but the capsules are far too noisey for most natural environments.

B-format surround (eg. Soundfield) can be used to record very flexible matrixed surround onto a four-track recorder (eg. Sound Devices 744), and the mics tend to be small and light enough to fit in a Rycote. The down side is that you'd also need matrix decoders for monitoring and mastering. I'll probably take one of these out the next time I'm rolling surround atmos.

The thing common to all of these systems is that they're simply not practical for a one-person video shoot. Its tough enough just hauling around the mics and recorders.

The good news is that much of what you hear in nature documentaries is not production sound. Documentary sound editors will often start with a mono synch track (focussed on the on-camera action rather than ambience), and layer additional tracks until the mix is suitably dense and detailed. Foley also finds its way, from time to time, into a nature film's mix. Furthermore, much of this material wasn't recorded in surround: even the sophisticated mixes found in the I-max nature documentaries are composed primarily of mono and stereo elements.

My advice to you would be to concentrate on recording good mono tracks using a mic mounted on the camera, then make a second trip for the express purpose of acquiring audio assets. Camera placement and microphone placement are two completely different things, each with its own unique set of priorities and technical considerations.

As far as microphones, the Sennheiser MKH416 is probably the best place to start. Its rugged enough to continue working in adverse environmental conditions, without compromising on sensitivity and overall sound. Another useful mic is the MKH816, which has a tighter pickup pattern (too long for on-camera use, though). You'll also need adequate shock-mounting and wind protection (eg. Rycote modular suspension, windshield, windjammer). If you're recording in the rain, bring along a sheet of hogshair to break up the sound of raindrops hitting the windshield.
 
Buck,

In almost all instances you need to to think of surround as an output format, not a capture format. People don't generally record in surround. Surround is created in mixing and post production. It is entirely artificial. In many cases this is true of stereo as well. Also, listen to SMuir and take his advice :)

When you come back trying to mix in surround, you will basically get the same story from everyone, and again, the best option is to mix in stereo or leave it to someone who frequently creates surround mixes.
 
Buck Forester said:
SMuir, THANK YOU! That was EXACTLY what I was looking for in a response! It's also encouraging to know that a lot of the high-end stuff is recorded mono and then layered in post.
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No problem. In a surround mix, mono effects elements are often preferable to surround, since they can be localized with pinpoint accuracy in the surround image, whereas stereo effects may not give you that "you are there" precision. Stereo and surround tracks, on the other hand, are better suited to giving an impression of space and an enveloping environment.
Buck Forester said:
That said, I am VERY intrigued by this H4-mini you mentioned. http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/466415-REG/Holophone_H4_SUPERMINI_H4_SuperMINI_Surround.html

Why do you think it wouldn't perform satisfactorily in the field? What's its limitations?
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For that, I'm going from a combination of extrapolation from the price tag and my own experiences with the H3-D. Natural sounds are typically pretty quiet, unless you're in a rain forest or next to a roaring waterfall. For that reason, you want a pretty sensitive mic with low self-noise. While the DPA capsules in the H2-Pro perform surprisingly well in quiet conditions, the H3-D's need to be cranked to get anything useful to tape, and then the self-noise of the H3-D's capsules becomes a real headache. The H4-mini is priced lower than the H3-D, and everything I've read about it indicates that the capsules are similarly compromised. The surround encoding is also cause for some trepedition, since surround-to-stereo encoding systems tend to be rather lossy. They're definitely a "try before you buy" item, as far as I'm concerned. On that note, there's a fellow here in Toronto who rents his H4-mini out through Trew Audio. I've been meaning to give it a whirl, but I've been a bit busy lately.

Another significant limitation that you will find with all camera-mounted surround setups is that you'll end up recording a great deal of noise from the camera and opperator. If you've just hiked a couple of miles through backwoods trail, the last place you want to stand is right next to an open microphone. People watching your film on their home-theater systems will think there's someone standing right behind them and breathing heavily.

There is another surround system that only require a stereo recorder, but it's unlikely to be much use to you: binaural sound. It can give you a very convincing surround image, but it only works properly when played back on headphones. When played on a stereo speakers, binaural sound doesn't even provide a convincing stereo image.

The sanken stereo mic is a very solid investment. My only caveat on that one would be that it doesn't handle humidity or dust as well as Sennheiser's MKH-series mics. In what sort of environments do you plan on shooting?
 
May I also suggest the Zoom H2.

H2_and_accessoires-web.jpg


http://www.samsontech.com/products/productpage.cfm?prodID=1916

Records in 4 track "surround" mode at up to 48khz 24bit (it creates two stereo wav files). I've been using this thing in the field a bit and I'm quite impressed with it. I'm even more impressed with it because it only costed $200 with a 4 gig SD card. It's not perfect by any means, but without spending nearly $30,000 on gear, it gets the job done in the palm of your hand (which is good for sneaking this in places to record ambiances).
 
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If it could take four external line-level feeds from an SD422, I'd buy an H2 in a heartbeat. As it stands, I only saw one 1/8" (presumably stereo) line input on the side. Is there a way to record 4 tracks without using the internal mics, Humanwire?
 
SMuir, thanks again for your valuable input. I'm taking notes. The environment I'll be shooting in are backcountry wilderness conditions. Durability and the ability to withstand some degree of field abuse is important. Maybe I should just stick with the Sennheiser 416 setup over the Sanken stereo mic. Maybe having a mono mic will be better for on-camera, and combined with selective mixing from the PCM-D1 I could do well with mixing nature sounds in post.
 
Okay... I'm deciding between the Sanken CMS-10 and the Sennheiser MKH-416. I haven't heard either of them in real life, nor have I seen them. They're both in the $2 grand + range... anyone have any personal experience with these guys and do you have a recommendation for either as an on-camera, wilderness adventure recording device which will take a little field abuse now and then?
 
SMuir said:
If it could take four external line-level feeds from an SD422, I'd buy an H2 in a heartbeat. As it stands, I only saw one 1/8" (presumably stereo) line input on the side. Is there a way to record 4 tracks without using the internal mics, Humanwire?
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I'm pretty sure that when you plug in an external mic, you can only record in 2 tracks at the most.
 
I have not tried this, but if you are willing to experiment, Holophone makes a camera mountable surround mic that folds surround into two channels of 5.1 Dolby Pro Logic II. You'll need a decoder box (they make) to play with the individual tracks.


5.1 Channel Professional Grade Surround Microphone.
Compact
Low Profile
Powered by 9V Battery
Captures Discrete and Instantaeous 5.1 channel audio
Onboard Dolby PLII encoder
Stereo output (Mini Plug and Balanced Mini XLR)
12db Pad
Unity Gain Control
Point and Shoot
Plug and Play
Compatible with installed base of Dolby ProLogic II consumer decoders
Audio can be decoded back to 5.1 channels in post using Holophone D-Code or any Dolby PLII decoder
Estimated retail price US$599

Regards,

Ty Ford
 
As much as I love phase-coherent stereo recording, I think that focussing on mono for the time being is a wise plan. I wouldn't worry too much about broadcaster's demands; I have yet to see any broadcaster demand stereo or surround production sound. Their main concern, sound-wise, is the final mix and delivery.

There's no rule that you even have to use your production sound in the final mix. While the artifice might be a bit off-putting if you're accustomed to a more verite style of filmmaking, the nature documentary often lends itself well to an effects-heavy mix. A zoom lense will help you get closer to wildlife, but the mic will still be far away, sitting on top of the camera.

As far as mic selection, both the `416 and the Sanken stereo (can't remember the model) have their strengths and weaknesses. Mics are like angel investors: you can never have to many, because you'll need them all by the end of post-production. That said, if I could only afford one mic (as was the case not long ago), it would be a `416. It has a more pleasant sound (to my ear) than the Sanken when used as a boom mic, its very resistant to RF interference, its physically rugged, and it opperates well under humid or dusty conditions. It can also double as a great VO mic (its the classic "voice of God" mic). If you can find a gently used one, so much the better.
 
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