Shelf-Life of the HVX

IRecordThings said:
Right now the major factor for me is compression; I naturally want as little of it as possible and to be able to get the most out of whatever I am using. MPEG-4 seems to fit that role quite nicely for the time being, so if I could get that straight out of a cam without recompressing DVC, I'd like that even better. And with Panasonic pushing AVC recently, it seems like there might be an HVX-like device (tape deck included) that would have it, so that's what I'm holding out for. But if there likely won't be one, then I'm free to consider my more immediate options.
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There's an HVX-like HMC150 that has AVC-HD on it. The lowest-cost AVC-Intra camera is $30,000. And there is no tape deck, nor will there ever be another new tape deck.
 
Ok ok people. Calm down! I promise I wont’t harm my HVX or myself.
I perfectly understand that Panasonic and others desperately need our money. We all help to make them strong and powerful so they can come up with a great product that we can enjoy and make money with, so then they can come up with great improvements to that great product, (like new and improved), so we can basically buy the same product again with these new great improvements so we can make money with it and…. It is actually lots of fun.
 
John Caballero said:
Ok ok people. Calm down! I promise I wont’t harm my HVX or myself.
I perfectly understand that Panasonic and others desperately need our money. We all help to make them strong and powerful so they can come up with a great product that we can enjoy and make money with, so then they can come up with great improvements to that great product, (like new and improved), so we can basically buy the same product again with these new great improvements so we can make money with it and…. It is actually lots of fun.
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John,

You had us all in an uproar with threats of hurting an hvx, Wheewww... Glad you didn't do anything stupid :)
 
I've been reading this thread with great interest especially the several comments that suggest that other companies should offer similar trade-in policies as RED. The RED trade-in is a one time deal for folks that took a very real risk in putting a deposit on a camera that at the time, didn't exist. So when HVX users purchased their camera which of the following was true:

- spending money now for a camera you might (or might not) see in a year or two
- putting your faith in a small startup company with less than 1 year in business

or was it more like:

- received the capital equipment shortly after (or even before) payment
- purchased from a large corporation established for many years.

Because the leadership of RED recognized the risks taken and the sacrifices of those early customers, they are rewarding them for that.
 
Ive been reading through this thread and while I agree that a trade in program on cameras isn't really the best idea, comparing them to cars makes no since,

people have said ford and BMW should have a trade in program. well just incase you've been asleep for the last 80 years, THEY DO, every car dealler takes trade ins then they sell those cars on there used lots or at auctions, they dont really do it to make money on the used car, they do it to get more people to buy the new cars. if there was no auto trade in programs people would be keeping their cars for 10 plus years, running them into the ground before they bought a new one.


Apple also has a trade in program. you just have to look for it,. those refurb computers you ncan buy on their site. those where tade ins.

thay also take 10% off a new ipod if you trade in your old one. not really worth it, as ebay and cl can get you more.

Jason
 
Jason Miller said:
thay also take 10% off a new ipod if you trade in your old one. not really worth it, as ebay and cl can get you more.
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That's exactly the point.

Car dealers take trade-ins. They rob you blind when they do it, but they do it. You can do much better yourself.

If a camcorder manufacturer offered trade-ins, it'd have to be for far less than the actual sellable value. It's a hassle, an inconvenience, and outside their main business to do it -- they're not going to do it at a loss on top of it.
 
Barry you're correct about car deallers and other trade ins giving less than worth, its how they make money on it. but there are ways make that money back, if the camera was for business, then the loss can be deducted in your taxes, and you've save yourself the trouble of selling it, which while often goes smooth, it also often creats many head aches.

another option the people who want to upgrade may want to look into is donating there hvx to schools, and other non profit orgs, summer camps and such, may be great for your taxes.

just some thoughts, I'm by no means a cpa so check into it before you do it.
 
I'm just really hoping that my two HVX200s aren't going to be worthless a year from now. I mean, I expect and understand their value decreases, but I'm getting a lot of use out of them this year so I don't think it's a big issue, it's better than renting for me anyway. We'll probably have at least 35 filming days left this year, so honestly that makes them worth owning. I know already we have 15 filming days in May alone, and with some other stuff I have planned throughout the summer that adds another 5-6 filming days if we had NO other work whatsoever. Doubtful.

But I hope the HVX200s are worth $2,500 anyway by this time next year. If not I'll be pretty disappointed. At that point I doubt I'd sell them at all. I'm the kind of person who won't sell something for too much of a loss usually, I'll just keep it and eventually throw it away or something. It's not intentional but I end up figuring, "Well, I'll still use this for something, not worth selling," and sometimes I do use it still, other times I probably should have sold. I have a dual 2.5 Ghz G5 with 8 gigs of RAM that I'll probably just put in storage now, got my new Mac Pro today, that thing is probably not even worth selling to be honest. I mean I pulled the two 750s from it because the old hard drives, 500s, one of them crashed so I could only possibly put a 500 in it to sell. Also I'm using the monitors I got with it still. It seems to have a power supply problem or graphics card issue, not sure which, but it won't startup properly and show anything on the screen, so that's odd. I just figure it's not even worth selling at some point, that's what happens with technology. 8 gigs of RAM when it's 8 x 1 gig DDR1 RAM is not worth much of anything now days, sad, it was very expensive 3 years ago. Stupid technology! haha.

If I could get upper $2,000s for the HVX200s this time next year and we had a suitable upgrade like Scarlett, I might go for it. But I may just keep the HVX200s as low budget cameras or behind-the-scenes cameras or something, depends on my mood and financial situation, hehe.
 
JonathanLB said:
I'm just really hoping that my two HVX200s aren't going to be worthless a year from now. I mean, I expect and understand their value decreases, but I'm getting a lot of use out of them this year so I don't think it's a big issue, it's better than renting for me anyway. We'll probably have at least 35 filming days left this year, so honestly that makes them worth owning. I know already we have 15 filming days in May alone, and with some other stuff I have planned throughout the summer that adds another 5-6 filming days if we had NO other work whatsoever. Doubtful.

But I hope the HVX200s are worth $2,500 anyway by this time next year. If not I'll be pretty disappointed. At that point I doubt I'd sell them at all. I'm the kind of person who won't sell something for too much of a loss usually, I'll just keep it and eventually throw it away or something. It's not intentional but I end up figuring, "Well, I'll still use this for something, not worth selling," and sometimes I do use it still, other times I probably should have sold. I have a dual 2.5 Ghz G5 with 8 gigs of RAM that I'll probably just put in storage now, got my new Mac Pro today, that thing is probably not even worth selling to be honest. I mean I pulled the two 750s from it because the old hard drives, 500s, one of them crashed so I could only possibly put a 500 in it to sell. Also I'm using the monitors I got with it still. It seems to have a power supply problem or graphics card issue, not sure which, but it won't startup properly and show anything on the screen, so that's odd. I just figure it's not even worth selling at some point, that's what happens with technology. 8 gigs of RAM when it's 8 x 1 gig DDR1 RAM is not worth much of anything now days, sad, it was very expensive 3 years ago. Stupid technology! haha.

If I could get upper $2,000s for the HVX200s this time next year and we had a suitable upgrade like Scarlett, I might go for it. But I may just keep the HVX200s as low budget cameras or behind-the-scenes cameras or something, depends on my mood and financial situation, hehe.
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You should be treating your cameras as a depreciating asset or as a hard cost (usually in a lease or rental). You state that you're getting a lot of use of them now, and presumably charging rental against them. Therefore, they have value - at least what the rental / production market will bear.

Remember, the first cost of the item is only one small factor in figuring the margin or loss you realize from it. Someday, this $6k lump will be a curiosity. Hold onto it long enough and it'll be a museum piece and likely worth at least what you paid for it.

:engel017:

e
 
Jonathan, I can totally relate. I have an entire corner of my studio dedicated to storage of old technology. Like a portable 3/4 inch deck, R-R audio decks, B&W laser printers, 2 GlobeCasters, and CRT monitors galor.

I keep saying when I get time I'll sell them, then, before I know it, I can't give them away. :cry:
I'm just happy that I've made enough money with them that I don't care if I end up tossing them. :Drogar-BigGrin(DBG)
 
haha, yeah that's definitely how I am. Well sometimes I'm just angered if something isn't worth what I think it really should be worth, like with collectibles, so in that case I refuse to sell because there's no point, if I paid $500 and it looks like I can only get $250 on eBay I'm like no thanks, nobody gets my $500 collectible for half price! ;) Sometimes that's because I figure it will go back up in value. Sometimes true, sometimes not.

With technology, I'm just bad at remembering to sell it. I took a bath on my XL-2, I made a mistake buying that camera... I just got it because we were using it at film school and the school had insufficient equipment and a lot of times a huge pain to check it out, so I thought I'll get it myself and tinker around with it. I only used it a few times before selling it at a loss. Obviously not a good decision buying that camera. I still have my XL-1s and I'm not sure if I can sell that for anything.

I had a really bad dream last night, it was so weird though. Usually a bad dream involves something like people shooting at you or running away from an ax murderer, hehe, I don't know, something like that. I had a dream that for some reason I spent $15,000 on equipment and I thought it would be a lot lower, and that I wrote a check (? I always use credit card, lol) that I knew wouldn't clear so I had to get up early and go right to the bank to transfer money to that account, but when I went there my other account didn't have enough to cover the extra expenses either so then I had to use my investment account, etc. It was such a weird dream. I don't think I ever have financially related dreams, haha, I can tell that must have come from just spending all this money on my Mac Pro and hoping I can get enough use out of it in the next 3 odd years to pay for what I spent.
 
I guess I'm not sure how an HVX can be worthless a year or even two from now. It's a mindset I just don't understand. A camera is a tool. If it gets you the images you need, then it's worth it. 2 years from now every HVX ever sold (that is still in working order), will be capable of delivering amazing HD imagery, just as they do today. Even if someone comes out with a camera that shoots 10K, that won't change.

We are coming very close to a point of diminishing returns regarding resolution, and to a lesser degree, dynamic range. I can just about guarantee you that, unless you are delivering to your clients on an IMAX screen, the way you shoot something will have more of an effect on the final product, than whether you shoot on HVX, a Scarlet, and EX3 or an SDX900.

I have a screwdriver in my drawer that's about 30 years old. It works as well as it did the day I bought it.

The sky is NOT falling.
 
hvx worthless lol. I guess when the hvx came out there were a lot of dvx owners who felt that their investment may be worthless, but I'm willing to bet if you have the skills, and a dvx, you've made you money back on that camera over and over again in the couple of years we've had the hvx. not to mention how much you may have made before the hvx.

there are still people making money with the dvx, the xl1-s-2 even the vx100 and gl1, you can still make money on weddings events, you can still make dv films and get beautiful results. and you can still today get dvx footage on tv, not sure how long that will last, but I'm betting that the hvx shelf life will be much greater than the dvx was(still is)

keep in mind that no matter how many K the red may be, broadcast standards will not go higher than 1080p probably in any of our life times. no video camera hd or other wise will have the shelf life as a 16 or 35 mm camera, as in all reality nothing much has changed since crystal synk, few advances here and there, better glass, more film speeds, but you can get as beautiful of an image with a arri made in the 60s that you can with an new off the shelf.

vhs never had a life as it never had the quality for broadcast standards, same with 8mm, but Hi8 is actually still used at times, dv is still more wide spreed than HD,


I'd like to play around with some of these newer camera, and I'd like to play around with the new cameras yet to come, but I think people should just slow down and take a look around, if you're shooting an event, a show, a film on your hvx that will go out is sd, does it really matter that you dont have the hvxa? if you're putting it out in 720 once again does it matter, maybe if you're putting out to 1080, ot 35mm the A may help you get a better image, or at least it may save you a little time to get the image, but the hvx is still right up there chuggen away

sorry for the long post, just a few thoughts from a guy who loves his Baby hvx. but I loved my xl1 right up untill i sold her last year to a student who is still getting a great deal of worth out of her.


Jason
 
for me, the HVX200 came at the right time and the price was right as well. Mine is just over 2 years old now, and will still hold its ground against todays newly released camcorders.

When its time to upgrade, for me it will most likely be 3K, 4K or 5K resolution, say 2 years from now. Until then I'll just keep turning out projects and not worry about it
 
One thing I'll say about the HVX is that it is perfect for clients like the one I have tomorrow. Two thirty second spots in a day - including the edit. SD DVD deliverables up until two days ago. Now they want HDCam 1080i.

With the HVX200, I can do it out of the box. Though finding an HDCam suite in Charlotte wasn't the easiest task. You get used to being in Silver Spring and figure everyone has HDCam.

They don't.

Anyway, the HVX200 is a terrific investment. I'd be hesitant to buy a 200 now that the 200a is coming, but I don't think it'll destroy the resale value completely. My bet is that HVX200s will be selling for $3500 - $4500 (with a 4GB / 8GB card or two) in the secondary market.

A fifteen hundred dollar hit over two years is better than I've ever done on any of my cars. Nobody has ever paid me to use my car either.

e
 
My Sony VX-1000, purchased in 1996, lasted over 10 years without repair and declined
in value only gradually each year. I sold it for about 1/3 its new value after a decade!
Lots of other newer and "better" cameras came out during that time, but the 1000 held its value because those cameras weren't groundbreaking.

HD is groundbreaking. The HVX is the first, and a great camera. Unless something "groundbreaking" in comparison comes out, it will hold it's value.
 
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