The American car industry DESERVES to die

OldCorpse

Rockin the Boat
Last week I went on 5 day trip and I rented a car. It was a Chrysler Sebring sedan, brand new. What a POS!!! Unbelievable. It was sluggish in acceleration, extremely fuel inefficient, and twice simply died when I had to brake sharply. However, bad as performance was, that's not what shocked me. What absolutely shocked me, was the design. It's as if Chrysler got a team of designers together with the task of "make as user-unfriendly a design and as inefficient use of space as possible".

The car is extremely bulky from the outside. All that bulk however, translates into a really tiny space inside. It's ASTOUNDING. The trunk space actually holds less luggage than the Hyundai Elantra 2007 I rented a few months ago (and I had the identical luggage) - and the Elantra is a much smaller car. Cabin space, especially back seat is again much smaller than in the Elantra. Ditto for glove compartment space and other stow-away areas. I am not even bothering to compare it to other cars of similar size, like the Toyota Camry or Honda Accord. I'm intentionally focusing on the Elantra, because let's face it, the Hyundai is a downmarket brand. Yet it is VASTLY superior to the Sebring.

When you examine the reason for such inefficent use of space, you see that the apparent method by which they get there is simply INSANE. What the Chrysler folks do, is to pad the various spaces with empty plastic just to TAKE UP space and leave less free space for use. Example: the glove compartment. When it is closed, from the outside, it looks like it should be huge. But when you open it, you realize that the external lid is about 2/3 bigger than the inside space which is actually quite tiny (I couldn't fit in a book!). This tactic is employed throughout. The inside door is THICK, but the holding spaces are tiny. INSANITY. It's like those bottles unscrupulous food merchants use, where the bottom of the bottle bulges to the inside so far that it takes 1/3 of the space, so from the outside it looks like you are buying a big bottle of whatever, but when you actually pour it out, you realize it would fit into a tiny bottle.

Then the ergonomics of it - as if they spent not 5 minutes thinking about the user. The steering wheel obscures the speedometer and most of the displays (I'm of normal size, 5' 10"). Bad placement of handles, and no ceiling handle/strap for the passenger side. Rest of holding spaces awkward to get to, and tiny. By contrast, you can really feel how the Hyundai engineers "lived" in the car, you can sense the huge amount of thought that went into the design of all the elements, so the user would intuitively reach whatever he/she needed. And again - this is the downmarket Hyundai Elantra, not a Toyota or Honda.

I'm not even going to mention the hideously ugly look to everything inside, since tastes differ, but I will note the use of inferior quality materials with the resultant cheap feel. The armrest holding box lid wouldn't open consistently, the cheap plastic regularly getting jammed. NEVER had any such problems with the Elantra. The fit and finish difference between the Elantra and the Sebring was like heaven and earth. Again, the Camry and Accura are several classes above the Elantra, so there's no sense in comparing them to the Sebring.

I came back shaking my head. It is crystal clear to me, that the American car industry is absolutely DOOMED. And I'm not sorry one bit - they deserve it. Here we are in the year 2008 in a highly competitive world market and industry, and the chuckleheads at Chrysler decide: yeah, THIS is the product we'll throw against the competition... UNFREAKIN' BELIEVABLE! What are they thinking?

I only feel sorry for the workers and the engineering talent. I am convinced that we have the world's best engineering talent. And some of the most efficient workers. But we also have the WORST management on the planet, with CEOs who are reaping unbelievable hundreds of millions while they drive their companies into the ground. Simple question: why do the American executives who do such a disastrous job, earn MULTIPLE times more than the Japanese execs who dominate the industry? What's wrong with this picture?
 
I rented a Sebring convertible in LA and it was basically a pure joy the entire time... felt peppy and accommodated us perfectly. I'm 6' and 210lbs and the wheel tilted out of the way and frankly... I found the car to be much more comfortable then my previous car, a Honda Accord... between me and my GF we've had THREE Accords now... and the quality of finish on Accords is definitely going down... this most recent one has been pretty disappointing.

Different strokes I guess. YMMV...

What really confuses me is that when you rent a car you can PICK your car... why did you commit to hating something and ruining your trip? If I walked out on the lot and immediately hated the vehicle I'd turn around and get something else... for free... any car rental company I've dealt with will exchange on the spot if they have something else sitting there.

I'd admit that I've enjoyed some foreign cars MORE... I mean truthfully... there's some Hyundai thing that I've rented TWICE now... it's supposed to be in the $40Ks range... can't remember the name... and I really enjoyed it... but the Sebring convertible was probably one of the better aspects of my last trip out to LA... seriously it may have been the high-point... we were supposed to have another car and I switched to that at the counter... and I thank God I did... sorry you didn't enjoy yours... maybe you should have tried the convertible.
 
The Sebring you're griping about was probably designed and engineered and built while Chrysler was a foreign company (they were a division of Daimler).

An American car just won Motor Trend's Car of the Year award -- over the new Accord even!

The American auto industry is definitely on the ropes and plummeting, but I've had the opportunity to tour the Cadillac plant in Hamtramck and I can say that the autoworkers I met there are hardworking people who really cared.

Besides, it's nearly impossible to classify any particular car as "american" or "foreign"; I've got a Honda that was built in Tennessee, Chrysler was owned by Mercedes, Jaguar is owned by Ford, I had a Mercury that was built in Mexico, and I think a lot of "american" cars are built in Canada too. The Ford Probe was a mazda, there was a Mazda SUV which was actually a Ford Explorer, the Chevy Cobalt is a Korean import (Daihatsu, I think?) The Chevy Metro was a Suzuki. Heck, Honda's first SUV was a rebadged Isuzu.
 
Good points, the US car industry is in the tubes, and mostly out of greed. SUV's became the focus of the domestic industry thanks to the extra $ you could charge (an effect of tax loopholes i.e. if your vehicle weighs over 6000 lbs. you can deduct alot more value if used for "business purposes"). In effect average American car mileage went down in the 90's and early '00s while the Asian and European industry developed high mileage, user friendly automobiles. The US companies moved manufacturing out of the country, while Honda increased manufacturing in the US. The issue of buying "American" has never been more gray... what is an "American Car"?
Well maybe the current US companies deserve to die, the current big 3 are Dinosaurs, but I am sure a new improved US auto industry can take their place. TESLA anyone?
 
Well, there was no other car that size on the morning I rented, so I took the Sebring. Plus, I really had an open mind, I didn't go into it set against any particular car. So happens I rent cars quite frequently, and I'm willing to take a chance on a vehicle I know nothing about.

And as I said before, I respect American workers and think highly of our engineers (best talent in the world, I think). I have contempt for those I consider responsible for taking the U.S. auto industry from #1 down to present state of disaster and life-support - our vastly overpaid incompetent executives.

As to Barry's point re: foreign vs domestic. Yes, the Sebring was designed during formal ownership by Daimler, but all the execs in charge of design/production/marketing were the same crew that ran Chrysler before the acquisition (and that ran it into the ground) - only a few top guys were from Daimler. In fact, Daimler did little with Chrysler and didn't hand over any Mercedes technology as was hoped. So it was the same sorry executive crew as with the other losers GM and Ford.

And sure, many companies go on acquisition sprees, so foreign/domestic distinction becomes blurred. Yet to me, that's not the essential distinguishing characteristic - to me what matters is who are the CONTROLLING executives. If an American car company takes over a British company, and the American execs start running the show, I have no doubt they can run it into the ground, no matter which country the car originally sprung from... if it's more hands off, then they still stand an chance.

Here's the essential point for me: after WWII, the American car industry was super dominant the world over. There were no competitors of any note - the Japanese and Germans were devastated by war, as were the rest of the Europeans. There was nobody else. Meanwhile Detroit was flourishing. So WHO is responsible for frittering away such an enormous advantage? The workers? No, they were not the decision makers. The engineers? No. It was the managers, the executives.

Now, no doubt U.S. companies can still squeeze out a good car now and then ("An American car just won Motor Trend's Car of the Year award"). But the overall slope is downward, and the average quality of Japanese cars is superior in almost every way. Toyota and Honda seem to be growing while GM, Ford and Chrysler are shrinking. The reason is amazingly simple - consumers are not willing to buy inferior products, period. Who is responsible for such a fumble by Detroit? And why are American execs still rewarded so richly (compared to Japanese) when the deliver such catastrophic results? Why are we rewarding incompetence?
 
I just traded in my last "American" vehicle- 99 Ford Ranger. I picked it up new thinking I'd give one of the big 3 one final try. Never again. I picked up a new Toyota 4 runner and I swear I'll ever buy so much as bolt from the big 3 again- I don't care who owns them.
Toyotas and Hondas, no matter where they're built, just seem to last forever.

Car of the Year awards should be given 2 years after the model year. Hell they all look pretty right after they put on their make-up.........
 
Land Rover and Jaguar have suffered terribly under Ford - which is effectively dissolving their PAG unit.

Land Rover enthusiasts everywhere are very excited about Tata motors taking the reins - Mr. Tata has a stellar reputation as both a businessman and employer.

Cadillac has deviated from their core mandate in recent years to produce products like their shoddy, plastic-laden "SUVs" for the Urban(e) Los Angeles market and others like it. Folks like Jesse James could give a **** because they're going to throw $25,000 worth of aftermarket crap on theirs anyway. His Caddy scarcely resembles what you get off the lot.

My recent experience with their 2008 DTS was less than remarkable - it certainly wouldn't compel me to buy one. I was upgraded into a loaded Cadillac DTS ($48,000) on a recent pitch trip in Los Angeles. Everything about the car screamed "mid-grade" from the surface materials to the sloppy fit-and-finish. The shut lines were not consistent, the interior - from electronics to storage - was unremarkable and felt cheap.

Performance-wise, the NorthStar was a rocket, but the steering felt vague and there was zero feedback to the driver. Perhaps old habits on handling die hard at Cadillac?

I enjoyed one of their SRX models two years ago during another 10-day trip to Orange County. This car seems more European - taking its design cues from cars like Mercedes or Audi. Once you're inside, the cheap GM feelings rush back over you and you fall into a deep, Naugahyde-induced depression.

I've just bought the VW SportWagen with the Mercedes Bluetec TDI. I'll report on that once I've driven it for a couple of weeks. One thing is certain - the Germans can't do worse with their bargain-basement, entry-level cars than GM and Ford do with their luxury models. By the way, my wife's dad, who I like very much, is among the top Cadillac salesmen in the United States.

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No matter how much you say otherwise, every car company is a global market now. They all have division and companies that they own and operate all over the world. Design, parts production, and assembly is done all over the world...as Berry pointed out.

People have their opinions about cars and what is peppy for one my be sluggish for another. Respecting peoples opinions about what they want to drive and where it is made is one of the things that makes the car industry great.

There was a time that cars were made in America. That time has passed. Not liking a car or auto maker is fine, and as I said...the ability to pick from literally hundreds of different makes and models is part of what makes the current automobile industry so cool. But people that make generalizations regrading quality of build based of a particular manufacture solely based on where the brand was started are just ignorant and out of touch with current state of the industry.

http://www.moneyallocator.com/articles/american_foreign_cars.asp
 
I only buy American cars, although what Barry Green said is absolutely true: I believe my grandma's chevy was made in Canada. Our Trailblazer was made here in the states, but I have a large disdain for forign cars. I understand that they get good gas mileage, etc, but I am a guy who likes the power and the looks.

I will grant you that the industry is on a slippery slope, our car is in and out of the shop with problems, and it's only three years old. The last trip was going to cost us $1200 but we said we would wait. But I have a 79 Trans Am which is amazing, I think your expirience was just the worst of the worst, and I'm sorry it had to happen. But don't characterize the entire American industry as such.
 
There are definitely cars that are better then others... and yeah, I'm sick of the j.d. power INITIAL customer satisfaction thing... there are people getting 7 YEAR terms on cars now (crazy, but they are)... so first month impressions should mean nothing.

Our current Honda Accord is no different then the 3 that proceeded it... it's nearly impossible to full defrost the front windshield on frequent occasions. I also find the ergonomics of the latest Accord to be a little off... like the windshield wiper is now an arm rather then a dial at the end of an arm... and it's easy to have that arm in the wrong position... you have to find the spot you want by watching what the wipers do. Also the power windows and door locks are very un-intuitive from the driver's seat. Finally enough legroom for me though... This is an '06... and about "peppy"... well... if the Sebring we had in LA wasn't peppy then neither is our Accord V6... but it is.

Our last Accord... which we still have... somehow catches water in the trunk lid... so that if it's raining and you open the trunk... it POURS water onto the contents of the trunk. This is an '02.

My truck is an '06 Chevy... and aside from the lack of power (which IS annoying)... it's been a great vehicle in comfort and handling... it's probably more comfortable then the '06 Accord (which is loaded, btw)... there's no doubt which vehicle we'd prefer to take on long trips.

The OP is right about the problem with American cars though... I do think it's greed that's keeping us un-competitive (that and some issues that are the 800 lbs gorilla that NOBODY will acknowledge... last time I brought it up I got hate PM's from some weirdo for 8 weeks).

If I could have, I'd have went with a Titan or a Toyota. It was the price that got me in the truck I have... I just thought that the opening post was a little heavy handed... considering how average I felt our last 4 Hondas have been.
 
We have had a mixed experience with American cars, My mom had a saturn that after a crash the dealer put a new engine in and one week later it blew, claimed there was no oil in the engine and it was our fault. We had to pay $2000 out of pocket for there mistake.
That was the only thing with that car that was wrong and we had a second saturn that was fine.
My dad had a ford ranger that he only put 20,000 miles on in 10 years and that thing never had anything wrong with it and he only changed the oil like 4 times in that whole time!!!
My mom now has a 1999 Volvo and this thing is constantly breaking and costing hundreds, when we got it the turbo had a seal leak and a $5 part cost $500 to install, The ignition lock broke and went into antitheft mode that was $450 to fix, The thing seems to go though brake pads more then any other car i have seen, it blew the power steering hose one day. and thats all i can think of off the top of my head.

I have owned two Jeeps both built by AMC before Chrysler took over and besides the normal reconditioning for a 20+ year old car they have been great vehicles, My current car is a 88 jeep with 133,000 miles on it.

I had a 2005 VW GTI and this was a freaking awesome car, i had the ECU reflashed and was pushing close to 20 PSI on full boost great handling and a blast to drive. Only issue i had was in the fuse box the power to the transmission came lose after about 1.5 years of owning it. This was covered under warrantee even though i had installed a bunch of aftermarket crap on the car, so i was happy about that. I only sold it cause i needed more space and wanted to not have $333 payments each month, This was when i was going freelance i wanted to cut all costs.

Before that i had a 1991 Toyota 4Runner and it was horrible, ate brake pads like it guzzled gas, had some issues with the serpentine belt the week i was selling it cost me $500 to fix.
 
1991 Toyota 4Runners are pieces of crap. They're known for blowing head gaskets and causing 1000+ dollars for engine repairs... avoid them like the plague.

Personally, I've owned nothing but Mustangs my entire life. My first Mustang was purchased in '90 or '91. No serious issues at all. Well, the transmission is a known weak point with the late 80's models and I've had to rebuild it, but I did that myself. I was a mechanic for 4 years and never saw more than a couple of Mustangs come in for anything more than your basic oil change.

I would never buy a Japanese car. They're not rear wheel drive and I sort of enjoy laying down some rubber from time to time... my '67 Mustang is a lot of fun for that... :) It started off as an automatic transmission, which I pulled out and threw in a 4 speed Toploader. :thumbsup:
 
Matt is right about the greed issue. That is the same reason that most American cars have 1/2 the gas mileage of European cars. It's not the manufactures fault, b/c in most situations the same company is making both sets of cars.

The fact is that most Americans want to drive big gas drinking monsters. Something like 70% of Domestic cars in the US are trucks and SUV's. They all have a lot of room and a lot of power, b/c that is what the market is asking for. I understand there are people who care about the MPGs their car can obtain, but this is not written to them....b/c those people will buy the tiny 1.8 ltr 4 banger that can bust out 40 MPG.

If you go to Europe, it is rare to see a truck at all. And when you do see a truck, it is actually hauling something. A lot of their cars are tiny, run on clean diesel, and get like 45 MPG. You don't see people driving F250's with leather interiors and CD players and truck beds that haven't hauled more than a new mattress for their old lady. The reason is that market doesn't ask for those cars. Their governments did not make some stupid regulation that said auto makers had to increase MPG (listen up you fat retarded legislators). For them, it became a need b/c their government started taxing the hell out of gas and then the public called for cars with better MPG.

As long as Americans are willing to pay as much per month in gas as they would for their car payment, and as long as they are willing to make car payments that rival some house payments, the American centered car manufactures will continue to build 350bhp gas drinking monsters.

And as a side note, I am one of the American's that I'm talking about. I have a 4.6 ltr V8 Explorer, a 3.8 ltr V6 van, and a 4 ltr V6 small truck. The smallest gas tank I have is 20 gallons and I drive 100 miles round trip to work 5 days a week. My point is I'm not calling people like me bad. I'm saying that American cars getting poor gas mileage has nothing to do with quality. It is the auto makers pandering to the the wants of it's market. Which is exactly what they have to do in order to make sales.
 
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For the record... the ONLY reason I have a truck is to haul gear. In the midwest people have trucks because they work with them. I have a trailer when the truck bed isn't enough... and that thing gets a lot of use as well.

The problem is the now outdated mentality of a throwaway society that was built in the 80's and 90's... people have always appreciated fine things, but back then the average guy could afford to get a new car every 4 years. So the turn on ownership was frequent enough to make car trouble a headache rather then a financial catastrophe... in the modern economy however... things are changing quickly. Those with even a 10% advantage (workforce-wise... or production-wise) are able to exploit that small advantage through basic value for the dollar in the final product.

I don't think the automakers are pandering to the wants of the market any more then McDonalds is pandering to the wants of the market... they're selling cheap lunch.

I think the US automakers are grasping at ideals... and a price-point... and cutting costs where necessary to sell cars. If a Toyota Tundra or Nissan Titan were the same price as a Chevy/Ford of the same trim level... there would be a serious consequence. Right now (for some categories) American car companies are smashing the competition on price, but trading overall quality to do so.

I don't think they're fulfilling wants of the public so much as marketing to people with less money in each category of car... with the exception of the top of the middle class on up... they are pandering in that niche... and resting on the ideals of less analytical people.

Pick any car from any company at the same level of trim... the American option will be at least $3K less on average. It's the McVehicle.
 
Matt, again I think you are right, but we are talking about 2 different things. I was referring to fuel economy, where as you are talking about price vs build quality. The only comment I made regarding price was that as long as American's are willing to pay through the nose for any car, auto makers will only make cars/trucks Americans are willing to buy.

And I'm not necessarily ruling out overseas companies when I talk about pandering to Americans who want big fuel hungry cars. 15-20 years ago there was hardly an overseas auto maker that made a full size truck or SUV for Americans. As they gained market presence they started making both. They also realize that Americans want this and that if they want that market share they have to join the club.

The price vs. build quality of cars is a whole different subject on all shores, and I'll continue to let Matt address that as he is doing a fine job.
 
No, I worked for Chrysler in the 90s - they were a POS then, too. Just look at the resale values of Chrysler products compared to other US car makers.
 
The sad thing is that all three major US car companies have had the ability to deliver better products for years. Ever looked at a Euro-spec Ford Focus? Or GM's Opel? Thankfully, they're finally starting to truly be global and bring some of those vehicles over here. Saturn is turning into the American Opel and is getting great reviews from the car mags -- heck, I'd even look at a new Vue as a family hauler when the time comes. Something I wouldn't have done even last year. And the new Pontiac G8 is from GM's Australian arm, Holden. Again, great reviews. Ford seems to be the slowest on the uptake. They sell products based on the same platforms of many Mazdas, but I'd take a Mazda any day over the Ford cousin.

For now, my wife drives a '96 Accord because she just doesn't care what she drives, and I have an '04 Subaru WRX wagon that can fit an amazing amount of gear inside. No trouble from either car. Both paid for (Subie last month -- woo!), too.

I've owned 13 cars in my life, all foreign except for a few Mustangs. I'll gladly buy American when the quality is there. Of course, that may be a US-built Honda. Or maybe we'll all be under the sway of our Chinese overlords by then.
 
My '96 "Chevy" was built in Bowling Green and I'm STILL in love with it twelve years later. :love4:
 
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