Issues filming live stage shows

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pingpongpete1

Member
I have been filming a lot of music on indoor stages with my 18-month-old DVX100B.
I originally had a major problem with audio when I was using the camera in a roving role, with the built-in mics: they basically can't cope with typical live gig sound pressure level if you're anywhere near the speakers. (Presumably a consequence of upping the audio sensitivity on the 100B?) I've solved this by 1.) having a little T-bar made which fits into the accessory slot, and holds two small Calrec condenser mics in a crossed pair; and 2.) buying a pair of 20dB XLR attenuator leads for use when necessary. The camera is a bit heavy and unbalanced, but at least the sound is decent indoors in any circumstances.

Now a remaining problem is colour balance. It's obviously impossible to set up white balance like you normally would; too far from the stage, widely varying lighting conditions which are deliberately abnormal, etc.. So I tend to use the factory preset FLOU scene, and 3.2K preset white balance, or sometimes ATW. (I have tried every other preset and combination with no better results.)

However I set the camera, magenta lights come out as orange-y red. I don't remember that this was always the case - I have some images from a show last year which are full of magenta - so I'm wondering if a fault has developed. All other colours seem to be faithfully reproduced.

So, has anyone else had this issue? I'm reluctant to set up a custom scene setting if it's only counter-balancing a likely fault.
 
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wow, this was answer on demand for me. whitout even asking my question =). Me aswell as you shoot alot of live stage music. And especially the sound is a great problem, unless you can get the soundtechnician to record from the mixertable. And even then the results can vary. Can you explain further how you set up the mics and what's make them so special for this? also, is a attenuattor a leveler of sound or does it cuts away 20db? I'm also in for other sullotions capturing live sound in a cheap way.
 
...this should be interesting. I am also going to be recording live shows. The first one I did the the stage was well lite and fairly consistent. I would expect that will not always be the case. I will be shooting with a 100B and a DVC30 for longer shots. The audio is less of a problem, I roll 48 tracks to hard disk recorders (Alesis HD24's). I think if it was not for the standalone recording I would opt for two mics on stands fixed to capture audio. The color balance is another issue. I am interested in what the pro's do to address the color/white balance issue.
 
As said before, the colour is twisted anyway, so the standard 3.2k WB button on the dvx could be used. But you as myself use different cameras, so i suppose you'll have to CC in post. I usually have a camera in the further back, center of the place. Could that be an ideal spot to place a standalone mic? what angles do you use as standard? we use to have just 3 cams. Center back on a tripod, capturing the whole stage/people and front stage left and right.
 
I would never even attempt to capture a bands sound from just the camera. I'm sure this is totally biased because I am also a musician myself. I can tell you this...

The last show we recorded for a live DVD, we had a friend come out with his MAC G5 and sit backstage and ran snakes to his mixer in the back so he could capture the audio with Pro Tools. This way, after the sound gets recorded, it can be mixed and mastered correctly. If one thing goes wrong with the camera sound, you just wasted your time for the length of the bands set, plus set up and break down. This is a HUGE ordeal though because we usually run anywhere from 15-20 channels between all of the drum and instrument mics.

We are in the process of mixing this right now and it's coming out more professional than I could ask for. When recording bands, I say go big or stay home.
 
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Hey there to all on this thread.

I have filmed several of my own live shows that I have written and produced for the Orlando Phil, as well as other live music productions.

The main issue with live shows is lighting levels. Check out threads here at DVXUSER on "scene file" and "low light".

If getting a white card on stage is not practical, you can always zoom in and balance to a musicians white collar or shirt, or a page of music.

I try and grab my white balance and set iris from a medium hot spot on stage, as opposed to something partially under a blue gel or with blown out zebras from a bright gobo etc.

You can always wait until post, and then CC/White Balance each scene (especially after big light changes) to a white point.

AS FOR SOUND... in a live concert? Don't even think about on camera mikes. Dual system sound with a sound guy/mixer in center and/or back (sides) of house is way to go.

If you absolutely HAVE to go on cam mike route, DON'T use the built ins. Use shotgun/hypercap with foam idoors, with guns/dead cats outside.

For loud rock, I'd go towards corners of room (with one cam in center), and try and mike toward's the band's main speakers with the shotguns. Or, talk to your sound guy about possibility of patching in to audio feeds/mikes- more artificial but you can dial in reverb and dsp and stuff later... probably more of a back-up plan though.

For classical, I'd record acoustic, I've seen many guys do this different- I'd at least go with two mikes (L,R on slight V axis) at front of stage on about a 2 foot spacer bar, about ten feet off the stage. Or drop same config from wiring from a catwalk, etc.

I know that Atlanta Symphony did some Telarc recordings awhile back, they used a simple pair of left, right floor mikes at front of stage- the kind that lay flat and pick up stuff from the concert floor. Course, these are brilliant guys with mikes that probably cost more than my house.

I say all this as a filmmaker and musician, who is relaying what I've seen and heard OTHER people do. I ain't a pro gear head when it comes to sound recording/mixing. Which is what you need... a pro sound guy. Audio is at least 50 percent of a shoot (and more if it's a concert).

You likely only get one shot when you're live, so hire PRO sound guys for pro results. They aren't as expensive as you might think, and they usually have their own gear.
 
Douglas is talking about boundary mics for the Telarc recording, another good suggestion. Shure and Crown both make nice boundarys. Spaced omnis on stage are good too. Earthworks comes to mind for those.

I would however keep the mics out of the corners of the room. Bass frequencies add up in the corners and can lead to a boomy sound. Dead center can be a problem as some systems have a power alley (nulling point) up the center in the bass regions. This is much least likely to be a problem if the system was installed correctly but just something to be aware of. Spacing the mics help to avoid this (vice an x/y pair centered). Any way you cut it, keep the mics stationary.

If you have the cash, hire a pro as suggested. Two mic setups are very difficult to get right live.

thanks for the info Douglas, I will check the threads you suggested...
 
Unless I absolutely, positively had NO other way to mic a live setup, I would not do it open air. And certainly not if sound reinforcement (speakers) were being used. If speakers are being used, then there is a mic and a mixer somewhere.

Get the dry feed if you can (called an effects send on some mixers), otherwise get the same feed the guy has in the headphones. Boundary, or PZMs (Pressure Zone Mics) aren't a bad idea depending on what you're covering, but I wouldn't want these in a rock concert where they were using on-stage monitors.


I've done some live sound, and have set up live sound for broadcast (8 mics) and house sound. I am not an expert by any means, but my last setup includuded 8 wired mics, provisions for wireless, feeds for live broadcast, feeds for house sound, and feeds for Deaf/Hard of Hearing equipment. We have Crown wired mics, Shure wired mics, Crown PZMs, and a few other things. We are also running noise gating, compression, and sophisticated feedback killers for house sound.

The issue of color balance is a curious one. What is it you're trying to capture? If you are trying to make all the colored lighting look white, you're fighting a losing battle. Part of the "show" is the colors on the lights. So set your white balance for the predominant ambient light, and let the color show do it's thing. It's a concert, not a film. I'd just worry that there is ENOUGH light to produce a good image, and not worry about it's color. If you REALLY want to white balance it to remove color, see if they will let you tape some 3x5 index cards at strategic places so you'll have a white reference later when you get to post.
 
The 3x5 cards sound like a great idea. I was wondering how I could have a good white source to work off of in post. I am going to be filming a show next month so I will try this.
 
Thanks for the props Venuestudios.
Yeah, and also, what I was referring to was TOWards corners, not in the bass traps. I should have been more literal for some who are just joining the discussion. What I should have said is:

If you have NO sound guy, and it's 5 mins till top of show, and their callin places, and your palms are sweaty cause you missed sound check an hour ago, head NOT for the speakers (your mikes will get blown away) nor for corners... hit the left and right sides of hall, about 1/2 to 2/3 up, with shotguns aimed at monitors on stage- try and boom at least 5 or 6 feet above crowd, as the guns will still grab patterns close behind and to side of mike if it's loud.

I REPEAT: In addition to your side guys, have a guy in center (mid) with a mike and/or mixing, and PREFERABLY have a guy or two in mid house and/or back of house mixing.

HEY, again, I'm a VIDEO guy so I don't know it all, and don't profess too. But I am a video guy who has been on stage AS A MUSICIAN with the Cleveland Orchestra, Styx, Duran Duran, Sarah Brightman, Doc Severnson, Pavarotti, Harry Connick Junior, Kyle Cook etc, etc etc. I kinda keep an eye open as I go along, playin offbeats on my viola.

Does that make me an expert as sound? HELL NO. A great line producer, show producer and director? Hell YEAH KINDA (or at least I would humbly argue the point).

Some final thoughts...

Just filmed a partial clip for a behind scenes thing I'm doin with a big budget feature animation in Orlando (SNOWYVILLE released 2010).

I was tryin to do a favor for a producer friend of mine who's baby this is, and possibly help land a last minute spec deal for the DVD behind scenes, so I had ZERO time (in 24-48 hours notice) to di@K around.

So, who was my MOST expensive guy on set, including the big shot PRIMA DONNA DIRECTOR (aka ME). MY SOUND GUY.

Why? Because I didn't have time to screw around- I needed audio quality to match video, so my sound dude beat even MY pay for the day... Why would I do something so crazy? Easy. I was considering my LONG term role and pay as director/producer on the spec deal. Just some words to consider... unless of course you guys are just makin all these music videos for fun? :laugh:
 
Hey Peronne. Like minds, and words of wisdom.

Hmmmmm. North FL................. HMMMMM.......... Methinks outloud....

PM me Dude with Bio stuff, or point me to a link, if ya please. I am always looking to collobarate with fellow evil geniuses... EspECIALLy evil geniuses with Crown/Shure Wireds and PZMS.

AND OF COURSE, Who ALSO live in Florida.... NOTHING CAN STOP OUR EVIL PLANS now, I err,, umm...

BWA.. HA. HA. HA.... HA? :-Laugh(DBG)-1
 
Well I am no video guys for sure so any help in that direction is very helpful. Thanks for clarifying your intent Doug, I was only trying to make sure that what you were saying would not be misunderstood. Sounds like you have done your share of nationals too. I have somehow ended up working mostly with blues acts. I come from a live sound engineering background (musician also) and have done sound and recording in the worst possible spaces and some real gems. I started out doing 2 track to a Tascam off the aux sends and grown from there. The video thing is very recent, like 12 months or so. I see the videos of some of the guys here and it really pushes me to work on that aspect. I few dozen shows from now I will have picked up some of these 'basics' like the white cards. The first video I shot I did not white balance the camera (don't know that I knew what it was!) and everything was red... but the audio came out nice! So it went from a video to an EP for the band. I think I just need to get out there and work the cameras more to get a feel for translating what my eye sees to what I am capturing. Time in a business sure does help!
Thanks for the input.. back to lurk mode.
 
Nice to hear back from you on that venuestudios, I'll scope your website and maybe we can chat about a shoot in the future... once again- I'd try and pull out that footage where you got all reds, and see if you can white balance in post with adobe or final cut (or vegas etc).

Just look for a shirt collar etc that's basically white, and use whatever eye dropper type tool they have, to tell the program- "hey this is supposedly white".

Even if the shirt is under lots of changing colors, rotating lights or what not, try and wait till a frame where the ambient light kicks in somewhat - bottom line, if you know it's a white shirt, then everything should balance more naturally the way it looked the night of the shoot, even if the shirt (and band) are under a kaleidoscope of color most of the time... you just need a few frames or even one frame- remember, your not trying to tell the software to "make this shirt look white," you just want it to show you relatively accurate colors from a point in time, by saying, this shirt is a white shirt (even though it may look light blue etc when you balance).

Experiment around- you'd be surprised the footage you can resurrect this way- I was happy to find this out a couple years ago (as was my client). Good luck...
 
OK so to clarify options for WB:

- White balance from a white point on stage, either a shirt or 3x5 card, when it is under NORMAL ambient light, to give a baseline (or in post, to make sure it is still correct.

OR

- Use standard 3.2k Preset on camera

OR

- White balance once from Ambient light in room, then use first method in post only, not to re-balance live.



Is that right? What is the best option? There are a few here...
 
Ive shot a number of live shows, all paying gigs. As such I insist on being able to do a white balance in my set up process for all cameras. Another thing I include in cost is budget to record quality sound, weather thats equipment renatal, or guy and gear is budget dependant, but as far as Im concerned, if the sound cant be sorted (not enough money), I wont shoot the job. Nice images with crappy sound, doesnt help me get more work I have found.
 
OK, some explanations of what I've been doing. There's a regular electric music festival in my nearest city, and this year and last I've volunteered to do video-ing. Totally unpaid, except for a few pounds for tapes.
There's no pressure to get everything even slightly right - just as well with only one decent camera (an old Sony Digi-8 doesn't count, for sure) and often only one of us - sometimes two.
The aim is to capture as much as possible of lots of varied performances, and produce a 15-minute promo video that the organisers can use for funding etc. for next year.
I get to see lots of bands I wouldn't otherwise be able to afford to; and it beats watching TV. Plus I have an archive of tapes on my shelf, duplicated in my hard drive, which might one day be useful to the bands, to the festival, or to me.
In an ideal world of course, recording sound should be done by professionals.
But there is an advantage in being self-contained. Last year, the mixing guys recorded a lot of the material onto ProTools, and we were supposed to liaise to put together a decent record of one or two of the gigs. Result: nothing.
This year, Don Preston and Roy Estrada from the Grandmothers of Invention asked me if they could get copies of the tape. Result: once I get it organised, all members of the band will get a DVD. The sound will be so-so (recorded with a stereo pair from a balcony), but then so will the video. It's still a hell of a lot better than nothing at all. Plus I've preserved a performance by some great musicians - and as Don is 75, they won't be going on for ever.
And although the sound is way off from the quality it could be, it's pretty close to what a tall guy in a good position would be hearing while watching the band - and people do still pay to do that.
 
Thanks for all the helpful replies. One question I still have is: does the DVX lose its ability to 'see' magenta at low light levels? I ask because last night I noticed (just watching the light, not filming) that a magenta light as it turns off does seem to go through an orangey-red phase as the light dies.
And I'm still confused about white balance. For a typical rock / dance / world music stage show there is not really any ambient light at all, so measuring it, even with a white card or shirt, is a bit like grabbing hold of air - isn't it?
Using 3.2K, I'm still getting too much orange-y red and not enough magenta!
 
I guess clubs in other cities have sound guys who actually mix the band. Here in Atlanta, most of the board mixes I get aren't usable. I have a Zoom H4 2 track and usually end up mixing it with 1 camera audio and usually get a pretty good mix.
As far as the color issues. Most clubs here have horrible lighting, and I use 3 cameras and even though they're all Panasonic, 1 DVX100B, 1 GS300, 1 GS320, they have a different look. But I'm a post guy, so I don't white balance and just fix it in post.
 
Now i've looked around a bit and found the Zoom H2 Handy Recorder. Is this mic a good option for capturing live stage sound?
 
I hear great things about Zoom H2- My composer friend I have used for my films (a telly award winner, owns a tricked out studio etc) loves the ZOOM H2.

I bought the Roland R-09 from BH photo video for backup dual sound, just got it- but haven't tried patching one of my rodes N2s or Oktavas into it yet. I may exchange it for the Zoom H2 depending on tests. We'll see.
 
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