PAL vs NTSC ..... who can explain?

Thank you delaro :) i can see big difference between 24fps and 25fps, so i'll go for NTSC for better film look, better slow motion, cheaper price, 16GB p2 card and good challenge to PAL converting :)
 
Incase: In your logic a PAL DVD from an american summer smash hit blockbuster would suddenly not look filmic anymore because it runs 4% faster? Wunderlich!

You know. A lot of cinemas run film on 26 or 27 frames per second, so they can put in more commercials. No one ever complains. No one.

The only "test" that could prove if you can see a difference imho would be if you download a movie trailer from e.g. apple.com/trailers like this one: link and then play it back in 24p like it is on the website (whitout sound please). Then you export it frame by frame and make an 25p clip out of it. Play it back also but first change the frame rate on your Monitor from 60 or 72Hz to 75Hz. If you now see a difference between those two clips, buy a NTSC cam and live happily ever after.

Like Barry Green said: it's nearly painful.

Peter
 
augenblick said:
Like Barry Green said: it's nearly painful.

Peter
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well, don't be so condescending ..... :)
i've googled a lot on that subject and i've never seen a side-by-side comparison with the same subject shot in PAL & NTSC (with a Z1 or EX1 for example).
in europe we are used to see US movie and music video all day long mixed with 50i shows, 25p TV fictions. and in 4sec of viewing almost everybody is able to recognize a US serie or a european serie most of the time.
i've got CNN here, it's converted to pal but the difference between CNN and european news channel is really huge! just 1sec to tell which one it is. of course there is more difference between SD ntsc and pal than between dvcpro 720p24 and 720p25. but it proves than the brain can get used to very tiny details and make the difference.
my theory, as colors are the same and as i still see the difference if i go from 24p to 25p or the opposite, is that we are used to a specific framerate linked to specific physical moves (like a person moving for example). and even if u speed up from 24 to 25p or slow down from 25 to 24p there is the same amount of frames for the same move of a person (i notice it very much with people on the screen).
i've read a lot of people on forums that see the difference. but maybe american people don't see a lot of pal/25p shows converted to US channels to really feel the difference.
ok, now guys, don't kill me, it's just a discussion :)
 
You are talking about 24p stuff transcoded to 60i NTSC and then transcoded to 50i PAL. I was talking about 24p and 25p without any transcoding. An NTSC DVD is always a 3:2 Pulldown which looks ... stuttery at best. A PAL DVD is always frame by frame. That's it. You won't get a more filmic picture from a NTSC HVX. It's not possible. Just cheaper.

End trans

Peter
 
augenblick said:
You are talking about 24p stuff transcoded to 60i NTSC and then transcoded to 50i PAL. I was talking about 24p and 25p without any transcoding. An NTSC DVD is always a 3:2 Pulldown which looks ... stuttery at best. A PAL DVD is always frame by frame. That's it. You won't get a more filmic picture from a NTSC HVX. It's not possible. Just cheaper.

End trans

Peter
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you don't read me well .....
and I'm talking about shooting in 720p24 and speed it up to 720p25 if i need a PAL version. no pulldown for DVD output.
my PS3 is PAL and i have the choice between 24p (recent TVs have 24p capabilities now) or 60i (with an internal pulldown) for my french blurays. they want to get rid of the speeding up for PAL Dvds. No more 25p with bluray.
anyway you're right, if someone sees a difference he just has to go with his preference.
 
so in a practical scenario like you are making a film whose some parts need be shot in US and the rest in asia, so what do you do?
you shoot with a one type of camera only...either ntsc or pal?
how are ntsc movies distributed in pal regions then ..i see every english movie from USA being shown on tv in pal region ..so are they just speed it up to 25 and thats it ..?
is this how things work?

i do not find any flaws in the professional films which are shot in ntsc and shown in pal tvs..how they achieve all these..just by speeding up?

so in that case whats the harm then using ntsc in pal..all we need to do is to speed up and if we agree to live with less resolution (12808 1080) then we are good..right?

I would request senior members to please conclude this discussion ..as it is getting very difficult to get to a point and make the final buying decision?
 
I'm in asia, I work with a Pal HVX, and 2 years ago, went trough the same dilema. Why did 25p look so different to what we see on 24p converted to 25p broacast television shows?

Facts:

DVCPRO HD NTSC 1080i 60= 1280x1080

DVCPROHD PAL 1080i 50= 1440x1080

DVCPRO HD 720p NTSC/PAL- 960x720

Variable frame rates for NTSC- 1-60
PAL- 1-50

These are the codec limitations/advantages.

As for 25p motion vs 24p motion... My deciding factor was when a TV spot I directed in 1080 25p was copied to an HDCAM tape. Played down on an HDCAM SR VTR, the machine did a realtime down conversion to 24p. Sincerely, vs a native 24p image, it looked the same. I believe that the smoothness 24p gets when viewed on normal broadcast is because of the Interlace stream. Our eyes can see up to 60 fps. So it will look more smooth to the eye something originaly embedded in a 60i stream, or downcoverted from it. If you remove the i stream from broadcast, and see both records in native 25/24p, the difference is negligible. Does this make sense?

EDIT- I went with pal mainly because of the Hz problem. Most Asian cities are full of Neon and flourescent lights. With a locked 60hz camera, you're in trouble with flicker... (Of course you can compensate with shutter speed, but it is a hassle.)
 
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if this is such an issue for people then get a PAL / NTSC switchable camera. Canon A1 can be upgraded to do so for about $500 USD.

But as mentioned over and over, if your shooting for PAL delivery, start off in PAL. Thats what I do, and right now live in an NTSC country.
 
Noel Evans said:
if this is such an issue for people then get a PAL / NTSC switchable camera. Canon A1 can be upgraded to do so for about $500 USD.

But as mentioned over and over, if your shooting for PAL delivery, start off in PAL. Thats what I do, and right now live in an NTSC country.
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Yes, Noel, but you have a wonderful HPX500, which is ntsc/pal switchable... :)

RANT- The next HVX HAS TO BE Ntsc/pal switchable. It just doesn't make sense anymore.
 
Thanks SPZ for your valuable input..ur choice of camera depending on the Hz makes sense to me..
here is my situation:
-i want to buy a camera to shoot a short film in a pal region .
the primary distribution of this short film would be DVDs(PAL and NTSC both kind)will not be doing any broadcasting stuff at least for a few months..i want to concentrate on this film....
so this is why i was thinking ntsc model...

also where should i buy the camera..do you think the price will drop further after NAB 2008 in april as they might introduce a new model? i can wait till april if required..but if it will not then i can buy now...please suggest any good store...
 
ok, PAL HVX is better in PAL countries. but what about colors?
i've seen tons of HVX footages for weeks. I've seen some wonderful and interesting colors in US HVX footages that look exactly like I want. But no European HVX footages i liked.
So, are the US HVX colors exactly the same as the euopean PAL model? no differences at all? DVCPRO50 and HD are the same worldwide?

And as PAL DV has better colors than NTSC, is it possible to degrade the PAL footage and to obtain exactly the NTSC color space? i really like this footage and the skin colors http://www.puffinfilms.com/BottomFeeder/VITOS roughcut_scene.mov . it was shot with the HVX in DV mode without CC. Some shot looks remind me of some billy wilders movies. will I be able to have this look in PAL SD? I don't speak about the adaptor filmlike look, just the colors .....
thanx!
i should receive the B.Green bootcamp DVD soon, i will have a lot of answers i guess, but i really need this color thing confirmation :)
 
HD color will be the same worldwide, yes. Not 100% sure about DVCPRO50, because while the color sampling is the same, one is encoded to NTSC and the other to PAL and that may introduce a little difference.

DV will be different because they use 4:2:0 vs. 4:1:1.
 
Barry_Green said:
HD color will be the same worldwide, yes. Not 100% sure about DVCPRO50, because while the color sampling is the same, one is encoded to NTSC and the other to PAL and that may introduce a little difference.

DV will be different because they use 4:2:0 vs. 4:1:1.
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ok! thanx barry! i'm watching your bootcamp dvd right now. it's great that you give the equivalent infos for pal users in it.
i'll give a try to dvcpro, as it seems that it's 4:1:1 for both pal and ntsc. maybe it's a little bit more like NTSC DV.
 
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