Pros and cons from daily users / owners of the HPX500

Kit Hannah

Kit Hannah

Veteran
Hey all,
Looking to hear the pros and cons from "daily" HPX500 OWNERS ONLY please. I was wondering what you like about the camera, what you would improve upon, workflow likes and dislikes, what you think about the image produced, etc. Please be specific and if you have time to take us through your workflow, that would be great. I'm trying to get opinions from people that own and use the camera on a day to day basis. Not to be rude, but if you rented the camera once, your buddy owns one or just saw the Panasonic booth at NAB, please allow the true daily users to post. I'm trying to keep the "speculation" , "from what I have read", and "so and so said" posts out of this thread.

Thanks!
 
Man, Kit...seems like you just cant get enough about the hpx500! My goodness.


I have too many pros to list but....ok

1. flip a switch and you can go from off to recording in about a second
2. fast asa (for Low to No-Light)
3. the color-reproduction
4. P2 workflow
5. Low power draw (I get 3+hrs use from a 90wh battery)
6. Solid and lightweight build
7. 2/3" imagers with b4 mount
8 Variable frame rates and multi-format recording (Multi-National too with PAL/NTSC)
9. The flip out lcd for reference
10. HVX200 like menu layout ( I am just used to it so there wasnt a learning curve)
11. Pretty clean signal (noise-wise)
12. The Focus assit feature when you learn how to use it.
13. Oh yeah and shoulder-mount kills handheld in usability/stamina
14. The price! There has never been a camera this good with this many features in this price range!

Cons:

1.The "small" 4:3 viewfinder, I would like to get a 2" 16:9 viewfinder for better focusing, but its not really necessary (I also would like a color switchable viewfinder)
2. Its not the sharpest camera (Res-Chart wise) but depending on what you shoot..that could be a good thing

Thats all I can think of...Of course I could say I want frame rates up to 1000fps and 2,000 lines on a res-chart, but thats not realist for a camera like this.
 
hunter richards said:
Man, Kit...seems like you just cant get enough about the hpx500! My goodness.
Click to expand...

Well, in the past, I have jumped into quite a few things without really researching them too much, so I am trying to make up for that now - this is one of the best ways to find out things. It's not that I can't get enough, I just want to make the right decision because these cameras will be my bread and butter for the next few years until we upgrade and I want to make sure that we're going to be happy with them. I don't want to purchase something and go "oh crap, we should have gone in a different direction". I've been researching these for the last 2 weeks solid and have made up my mind without a doubt, but I am just trying to be prepared for anything and everything. Lots of finikey things on cameras these days that many people overlook prior to buying them, then they're in the "oh crap" situation.

I"m not uptight or overly cautious, I just like knowledge, especially when it comes to things like my livelyhood. I appreciate you guys always coming through and answering my sometimes broad, neverending questions. It has really helped me to prepare.

Thanks everyone!
Kit
 
Another con is that P2 cards are relatively expensive compared to other mediums such as XDCam Discs or SD Cards. Hopefully they will drop when Fuji start producing them.
 
I agree with the comments above except the "lightweight" part.. I played defensive end in high school and college, have always worked with weights, and I think the 500's pretty damned heavy!!! And I can't understand why it's so heavy.. there're no tape drive or motors.. If you take the lens, finder, P2 cards and battery and lay them on a laptop computer, the combination is much lighter.. They must have used old Model T Ford frames for the box the 500's built in..

I also disagree with the P2 cost thing - not because there aren't cheaper things out there, but because the initial cost of the cards, which are extremely reliable (so you can sleep at night), last a long time, and are very robust, works out to be cheaper than tape or film over the card's lifetime. And I like the 16g size.. even though the 32s are here and the 64s are looming, the 16s work well with the four slot HPX design.

One of my favorite features is ability to assign any audio channel to the front gain control on the side of the camera. I do wish the level meter in the finder was bigger and more intuitive though...
 
Pros:
- all the things Hunter said
- the ability to "run n' gun", then connect 500 to a MacBookPro, edit using files still on camera (no transferring), then "push" final edit back to a P2 card in the camera for playback out SDI/analog (I've used this a couple of times, have not evaluated all the gotchas & fail-points, but it's worked for me up to DV50 bitrates). only camera in the world (that I'm aware of) that can do this. I've a job this week utilizing this VERY fast workflow.
- 5 year warranty!
- 24pn LOVE this mode. Native mode saves so much space.... great utilization of an all-digital workflow

Cons:
- yeah, gimmie a color HD VF
- the END of the workflow, ie, archival; we're a small shop, & paying $6k for a data-tape drive (Quantum SDLT-600A) hurts. It's a really good archive solution, probably the best available, but still.... $6k for a data-tape box? ouch. (just a matter of time before we do, though)
- the ability to QUICKLY view the current "UserClipName" WHILE in camera mode, not MCP mode (so you can tell assistant what Take # you're on, rather than using TC)
- ok, now this is a 'con' based on a big 'pro'.... metadata loading/editing. Once you get used to using the clip metadata (in FCP you need Raylight to access, TOTALLY WORTH IT - you MUST BUY Raylight if you buy into P2 & edit on FCP), you want to use it more & more. But it's cumbersome if you need to edit metadata files "in the wild" (need a laptop). It'd be awesome if there was a way to make small revisions to a metadata file in-camera, even if it was using the LCD & direction keys to access a keyboard. (A quick primer: before we shoot we load the SD card with various metadata files we expect to use on the shoot. Each has ProjectName, Location, Shooter, UserClipName & a couple others. When you load the MXF's into FCP via Raylight, the clips can be named using UserClipName. So, when I load my shots, they're already named "Broll Planes Take 1" "OnCam Take 15" "Greenscreen Take 4"... you get the idea. The 500 automatically increments the Take # each time you hit Record. It's way sweet sitting down to edit & having all that done by your workflow, instead of manually.
- How about a "auto-continuity checker"? Push a button & the 500 will tell you if your shot maintained continuity on the script.... (jk!)
 
I was being a bit sarcastic Kit, your smart for checking things out first. Oh and about my "lightweight" comment, I was referring to Lightweight in retrospect to other shoulder mount cameras (2-piece beta cams especially!)
 
hunter richards said:
I was being a bit sarcastic Kit, your smart for checking things out first.
Click to expand...

I know, was just explaining my position on i though... :-)

They ARE lightweight as Hunter said. Mac, I'm not sure what your experience is with ENG cameras, but they are definitely lighter weight than most other ENG cams, even later model ones that have a tape transport. They still have to build them solid though so they will actually hold up in the long run to the daily abuses. That's most likely always going to be the case. To me, if the cam only weighed a few pounds, it wouldn't feel very robust and solid.
 
I agree with hunter's comments. I will say if you are coming from a hvx the viewfinder is greatly appreciated IMO. I have used the dsr-500,d-35, 600 and xdcam and the view finder is equal to those.

Big pro's to me are the 4 p2 slots, 6 pin firewire, 2/3 chips, and the overall feel of the camera for handheld work.

I was impress with build its not too heavy and feels like a solid camera.
 
Mac said:
I also disagree with the P2 cost thing - not because there aren't cheaper things out there, but because the initial cost of the cards, which are extremely reliable (so you can sleep at night), last a long time, and are very robust, works out to be cheaper than tape or film over the card's lifetime. And I like the 16g size.. even though the 32s are here and the 64s are looming, the 16s work well with the four slot HPX design.
Click to expand...

P2 cards are expensive when you consider we need about 8 of them for a day shoot (16gb) Thats about 10 grand worth at current aussie prices for the 16gb, or 4 32gb at about $6,500. Its sometimes not practical for us to clear cards during a shoot because we are constantly on the move and often in a mining or construction site. Obviously there are some third party solutions to this which we are considering. I guess everyones situation is different though. If your only doing half or hour long shoots then there really is no problem.

Add to this the fact that if we use a 202 as a second camera, then our card requirement doubles.

I am a bit cynical about the whole card pricing, I could be wrong but I suspect Pana sells the camera as a bit of a loss leader. A bit like buying a great $50 printer but finding out the ink costs a fortune.

It was one area that Sony tried to sway us on.

Still love the Camera and the format, just wish they would bring card prices down a tad.
 
you're right but consider that the 4gb were as expenisve as the 32gb now so that has something to do with time. Tapes are steady in price for years, so will it with the P2
 
Bachman said:
It was one area that Sony tried to sway us on.
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That's comical; Sony's memory cards cost exactly the same, to the penny (at least here)!

About metadata, if you have a cellphone with an SD slot you can edit the metadata on that. I think someone's made a cell-phone metadata editor that runs on PocketPC or Symbian or something, haven't they?

The bigger P2 cameras, like the 2000 and 3000, have some provision for editing metadata right in-camera. The 500 and 200 don't offer that, it sure would be nice if they did.

Regarding weight, you've just got to try to heft an HPX2000 to understand how incredibly lightweight the HPX500 is. If the 500 has a Model T's frame, the HPX2000 must be filled with solid lead... ;)

Still love the Camera and the format, just wish they would bring card prices down a tad.
Click to expand...
Cards have gone from $900/gigabyte down to about $50/gigabyte in just the last two years, and will fall again and again and again.
 
Barry_Green said:
About metadata, if you have a cellphone with an SD slot you can edit the metadata on that. I think someone's made a cell-phone metadata editor that runs on PocketPC or Symbian or something, haven't they?
Click to expand...

Sorry to jump in on this thread, Barry where can i get this software i just got a HTC and was going to write the software myself but i dont get Pocket PC (Code)

Also

We have an HPX502 and 2 HVX202's, on the HPX502

Pros:
1. 4 On Camera Channels of 16bit Audio (Love this)
2. 4 P2 Slots
3. Lightweight
4. Shoulder Mount
5. Instant Playback of any shot
6. DVCPRO HD so much better than HDV
7. DVCPRO 50 Wicked for SD Green Screen
8. 2/3 Chip for better DOF When shooting interview love shallow DOF
9. Metadata I love this Yes you must plan for it but no logging we just dont do it anymore it rocks all the clips are named as soon as you import them
10. 60Hz and 50Hz Option
12. Noise Far Less than the 202
13. Price :)
14. CAC
15. The Audio meter is better than the 502
16. Scene File Wheel a super quick way to change the frame rate just completed a big shoot of 12 TVCs where we use 25p 27p and 30p it was great to be able to just change it on the fly
17. No sure if all the lenses have this but we got the Fuji 17x7.6 and the ulta quick zoom is awesome for focusing up
18. 6 Pin firewire

Cons:

1. No Speed Ramping
2. No Vari Speeds at 1080
3. No on camera Metadata Changes

Nothing Else i can think of right now, very happy customer
 
I pretty much am onboard with everything mentioned to a greater or lesser degree. Cost of p2 is like nails on a chalkboard to me, but thats where we are so I live with it.
 
Another relatively minor plus is that the camera fits a standard tripod adapter plate, so you can use a Sony (which I do) if you have one.

Several of the "cons" mentioned from day one (I bought very early) are the 5600k preset and the poorly supported forward base plate (a problem when adding a Chrosziel mini-rod base plate).. These have been discussed often so I won't elaborate...

As for my comment on the weight.. I've had plenty of experience with heavy cameras - I shot the behind-the-scenes doc ON LOCATION: EAST OF EDEN for ABC in 1980 with an RCA TK76 tethered to a huge "portable" U-Matic recorder, carrying both for hours at a time, and previous to that I shot mostly with a super16 Eclair NPR - so I know heavy cameras... From a designer's POV, it just seems to me that in this day and age a modern solid state camera body should be lighter - about 4lbs lighter .. that's my opinion.

I've shot over 100 hours now on my current documentary, and am generally very impressed with the camera and the footage (I'm shooting 720/24pn).. The color is excellent and the CINE settings are, in fact, CINE looking.. I've used the HVX as a second camera, and although I do intercut the two, the HPX500 is noticeably superior.
 
Mac said:
I also disagree with the P2 cost thing - not because there aren't cheaper things out there, but because the initial cost of the cards, which are extremely reliable (so you can sleep at night), last a long time, and are very robust, works out to be cheaper than tape or film over the card's lifetime. And I like the 16g size.. even though the 32s are here and the 64s are looming, the 16s work well with the four slot HPX design.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure that P2 cards are cheaper than tape in the long run, because you have to take into account the cost of archiving. With tape, once you're done editing, you can just put the tape on the shelf and pretty much clear your hard drives. With P2, you have to spend time and money to store the data on a hard drive or data tape. Some people want to be safe and store multiple copies, so the costs add up quickly.
 
Sumfun said:
I'm not sure that P2 cards are cheaper than tape in the long run, because you have to take into account the cost of archiving. With tape, once you're done editing, you can just put the tape on the shelf and pretty much clear your hard drives. With P2, you have to spend time and money to store the data on a hard drive or data tape. Some people want to be safe and store multiple copies, so the costs add up quickly.
Click to expand...

But with the decreasing cost of hard drive storage, it WOULD be cheaper. You can get a 500GB hard drive for around $100 right now. How much will it cost in XDCAM discs for you to archive 500GB worth of info? Even at lets say $20 / disc (single layer 23.3GB), it would still cost $400 to archive that 500GB which is a $300 dollar difference, which will pay for the cost of P2 or SxS after about 60-80 discs. Everyone uses that comparison, but it's not really valid. Many companies will use that many discs in just a couple of months.

Example

200 XDCAM Discs cost you (at $20/disc) $4000.

a 32GB P2 card costs $1600, 5TB hard drive storage maybe costs $1000 - $2000

Solid state memory is much cheaper, plus you have less chance of something going wrong because of no moving parts.
 
That comparison shows the costs close today, but doesn't account for the fact that a) you won't be buying any more cards, so that's a one-time cost, and b) the hard disks are only going to get cheaper and cheaper. So your comparison shows an advantage in the short term, but the cost advantage long-term would be much greater. As card prices fall, the ratio shifts; P2 started out at about $900/gigabyte and is now down to $50/gigabyte and will keep going down.

That said, recognize there's a very different workflow between these two systems. XDCAM discs are basically a new variant on the same tape-based workflow (shoot to a "permanent" media, require a deck, stick the media on the shelf); P2 is a whole different animal (edit directly from the media, instant turnaround, no "ingest" or "capture" or "copy" time, etc). Each workflow will appeal to different shooters; "hired guns" like the XDCAM disc because they believe they can "hand over the footage" (which is, of course, entirely dependent on whether the company hiring them can play XDCAM discs... but that same scenario has haunted us since the digital age began.)

That said, disc acquisition is, IMO, an "interim" solution and solid state is the future. No other manufacturer ever brought out a blu-ray disc recording system, but every major manufacturer offers solid-state recording. I think only JVC doesn't offer solid state, but everyone else does, from Sony to Panasonic to Canon to Red to Thomson to Ikegami. As capacities increase, and costs fall, and transfer speeds increase, solid state will become the dominant and exclusive recording format, just as it has done for still cameras. Archiving will always be a question, and as Kit pointed out, any media appropriate for archiving computer data will be appropriate for archiving solid-state-acquired video footage.

Some day, maybe, in the future, solid state will advance to the point where it's large enough and cheap enough to archive the original. Maybe possible in the next five years? If solid state continues to drop in price by 50% each year, that'd get us to about $1 per gigabyte in five years' time. And that would be cheaper than today's XDCAM discs.
 
I'm sure I'm not the only one who had already gotten into the habit of backing up projects on hard drives even when originated on tape.. I was always a little nervous about those little mini-DV size tapes.

True, I have an office full of hard drives, but it is nothing compared to the stacks of 16mm film cans that I still have at a storage facility and at various labs.

I have come to trust P2 cards, so whatever the cost (which, as Barry pointed out, isn't that much more), I think they're pretty amazing...
 
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