Should I upgrade from the Canon AH-A1 to the Sony EX1?

gaffney film said:
Morpheus 23,

Could you possibly post some of the HVX images you refer to? I'd like to see how you arrived at your conclusion. Thanks.

Vince
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My conclusion was, first of all, that I agree with what everybody already knows. The EX1 has a much sharper crisper image. All I said was that I don't think it is "leaps and bounds" above tha Canon or HVX.

My conclusion was, secondly, like Chuck Norris supporting Mike Huckabee. Nobody cares and it's not going to sway any votes.

I also just read Barry's thread about his initial assessment of the EX1 compared to the HVX. I think his description of the EX1 image as "looking through a window HD look" is right on the money. It's that sharp. That's what I saw when I saw the footage on a HD monitor. But I also agree with his statement regarding that sharpness. "So in motion, the sharpness advantage over an HVX is very little". Read the thread. I think it's right on.

So again, I'm not taking anything away from the EX1. It's just not enough, in my opinion, to put a Canon or HVX on Ebay.
 
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I´m so happy with the Canon HDV picture/ my Custom Presets
, price point and FCP workflow, so I wait for more improvments.

So I just pickup an Canon XHA1 yesterday to support and a compliment to my Canon XLH1.
Really happy to see how small and nice Canon have made XHA1.
Half the price of the Sony EX1, feels really good in our very fast developing segment...
Can also now make 2 cam shoots easy :Drogar-BigGrin(DBG)
And the HD-SDI out on my XLH1.

Wonder what Canon, Panasonic, JVC and even the MiniRED will offer later
in the year, that might be bigger improvements...
I wait...but thats me :Drogar-SunGlass(DBG
 
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Carl, congrats on th A1. It's a great camera to cut with you H1. It looks like you are all set. The A1 will stand right up to the H1, and the H1 offers SDI when needed.
 
I'm also interested in the "mini RED". It will be interesting to see how this camera pans out.
No doubt with cameras such as the EX1, they will have to offer quite the package at a decent price, especially with the upcoming portable 4:2:2 drives.

Afterall, the EX1 offers 10 bit 4:2:2 via SDI. This is unheard-of in this price range.
This should really offer spectacular colors in gradients.
 
Christopher Barry said:
HDCam recorded to the camera tape is referred to as 3:1:1. HDCam camera records 1440x1080
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Yes, and its chroma resolution is 480 x 1080. 480 chroma samples for 1440 luma samples. So there are three luma samples for every chroma sample, which is where you get the "3" in "3:1:1".

, so how does the 1080p24 DVCProHD encoding method compare, and at a lesser 1280x1080? X:X:X ?
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It's only 1280 in US/NTSC territories, it's 1440 everywhere else.

In 1280 it records chroma as 640x1080. In 1440 it records chroma as 720x1080. So 640 chroma samples out of 1280 luma samples equals a ratio of 2 luma for every chroma, and 720 chroma samples for 1440 luma samples = 2 luma for every chroma. Having two luma samples per chroma gives you the 4:2 ratio in 4:2:2. (the last digit refers to whether it has chroma samples for every scanline, or for every two scanlines; that's the difference between 4:2:2-every line and 4:2:0-every other line).
 
Michael Friedman said:
There are other important factors that make the upgrade worth considering.

As an A1 owner I am particularly envious of the EX for:

Low light sensitivity.
Better compression.
HiRez (usable) LCD
Tapeless workflow (on more affordable media that actually fits into my current laptop).

I used to really regret not having variable frame rates, but Twixtor has soothed my pain. It is really phenomenal.

In my case I spent money on a Firestore, Bebob box to hold it, and a Marshall monitor in an attempt to have (or surpass) some of those features on my A1. That is close to 3 grand in upgrades.

....
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This is very sound logic!
 
Barry_Green said:
Yes, and its chroma resolution is 480 x 1080. 480 chroma samples for 1440 luma samples. So there are three luma samples for every chroma sample, which is where you get the "3" in "3:1:1".


It's only 1280 in US/NTSC territories, it's 1440 everywhere else.

In 1280 it records chroma as 640x1080. In 1440 it records chroma as 720x1080. So 640 chroma samples out of 1280 luma samples equals a ratio of 2 luma for every chroma, and 720 chroma samples for 1440 luma samples = 2 luma for every chroma. Having two luma samples per chroma gives you the 4:2 ratio in 4:2:2. (the last digit refers to whether it has chroma samples for every scanline, or for every two scanlines; that's the difference between 4:2:2-every line and 4:2:0-every other line).
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Barry, thank you for the confirmation, HDCam being 3:1:1.

I also have read your Understanding Color Sampling article, however, with the example of say DVCProHD 1080p24 being 1280x1080 encoded, is it still 4:2:2 footage when displayed on a 1920x1080 viewing environment, such as a pixel for pixel 1080 monitor? The 1.5x stretch on the horizontal axis is filling the gap of the missing 640 pixels of information on the horizontal axis.

One the other hand, the 1080p24 HQ mode recorded on the EX1's SxS card is encoded as 1920x1080, however it is 4:2:0 colour sampling.

So does DVCProHD 1080p24 represent 4:2:2 (1280x1080) in a 1920x1080 viewing environment? If not, what do we really call DVCProHD, now that we have these new codecs evolving? Thank you.
 
Well, that's a good question. The ratio refers to the recorded format, not the display format, and at the recorded format it's 4:2:2. But it's prefiltered. Some people have tried to enforce a notion of using terminology such as 3:1.5:1.5 to account for the prefilter, but I think it just makes them end up sounding silly.

The definitive article on color sampling nomenclature is by Charles Poynton, at http://www.poynton.com/PDFs/Chroma_subsampling_notation.pdf
 
Barry, thank you for your prompt reply and explanation. I am struggling to calculate the difference between 1080p24 DVCProHD 4:2:2 and XDCAM HQ 35Mb/s VBR 4:2:0 as a display format.

Perhaps it is fair to say the aforementioned EX1 codec is a pixel for pixel 1080p24 4:2:0 record and display codec?

As for DVCProHD, would the reference to 3:1.5:1.5 apply for recorded formats with 1.5x aspect ratio (1080p24) or 1.33x aspect ratio (720p & 1080p25, etc) stretch on the horizontal axis? If it applies to the 1.33x ratio, what would the 1.5x ratio actually be as a display format? I am struggling here with the mathematics in this analysis. Also, it is kind of confusing, as it is only affects one axis. Anyway, thank you for considering these questions.

gaffney film, you will note I had already posted there a day ago. Perhaps many ways to interpret the extract of Juan Martinez comments.
 
Perhaps it is fair to say the aforementioned EX1 codec is a pixel for pixel 1080p24 4:2:0 record and display codec?
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Well, yes. Except that it's also long-GOP, which makes me uncomfortable about saying it's pixel-for-pixel. When the codec gets overloaded resolution can drop a little or a lot, you can end up with frames that have as little as maybe 400 x 300 or so. But when all is going well, yes it's 1920x1080x4:2:0 at recording and at display, which makes it 1920x1080 luma and 960x540 chroma. In 720p mode it's 1280x720 luma and 640x360 chroma.

As for the nomenclature and getting into 2.7:1.3:1.3 or 3:1.5:1.5 or whatever -- read Poynton, he makes it pretty clear that this is all nonsense and a backwards/goofy way to look at it. The original meaning of the numbers is kind of lost now anyway, and it makes it more difficult to understand what's going on.

Just look at the actual chroma resolution. XDCAM HQ's color res is 960x540 in 1080, and 640x360 in 720p. DVCPRO-HD's color res is 720x1080 in 1080/50i/25p, 640x1080 in 1080/60i/24p/30p, and it's 480x720 in 720p. Those are absolute numbers that apply to recording and playback because it's the actual recorded color resolution, and should make the process of understanding it a lot simpler than trying to come up with some goofy number like 3:1.5:1.5.
 
Barry_Green said:
Just look at the actual chroma resolution. XDCAM HQ's color res is 960x540 in 1080, and 640x360 in 720p. DVCPRO-HD's color res is 720x1080 in 1080/50i/25p, 640x1080 in 1080/60i/24p/30p, and it's 480x720 in 720p. Those are absolute numbers that apply to recording and playback because it's the actual recorded color resolution, and should make the process of understanding it a lot simpler than trying to come up with some goofy number like 3:1.5:1.5.
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Yes, 2.7:1.3:1.3, or the like, is quite funny. Thanks for providing the above calcs, a much more sensible way to look at it. :beer:
 
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