HVX to film ! 1080 or 720 ?

B

Bassem Fayad

New member
Hey all .

I am a director/DOP working on an independent production using the HVX200 PAL and transferring to 35mm film.

I am new in this digital to film process and would like to ask for some tips.

first of all, we will have to choose between 1080i/25p and 720p/25p. all the research we've done left us more confused. my opinion is to go for the 720p though my director disagrees. so , any tips regarding this issue ?


2nd,
knowing the limits of the HVX200 I will opt for the following settings:

- lower the detail and vertical detail level to the max in order to avoid video harsh look.
- set the pedestal level to almost +7 trying to gain a stop in the low zones. I understand that noise level will increase dramatically but will be counting on D.I to overcome that .
- chroma level of +2
- cinelike Matrix
- knee , MID
- Gamma HD NORM
- and the vertical detail freq. set to thin !

will count on a Zebra setting of 80% to determine exposure . will avoid over exposures of more than one stop, and underexposures of minus three stops .

Am I thinking right ? any help is appreciated .

thank you in advance ,
Peace
Bassem Fayad
 
Based on what I've heard/seen, the 1080 version although looking like uprezzed 720, has a slight increase of resolution of about 15%. If that was downscaled to 720 again, you would gain some quality right? I'm going from what I was told so don't take what I have to say as fact.

- Kyle
 
KyleProhaska said:
Based on what I've heard/seen, the 1080 version although looking like uprezzed 720, has a slight increase of resolution of about 15%. If that was downscaled to 720 again, you would gain some quality right? I'm going from what I was told so don't take what I have to say as fact.

- Kyle
Click to expand...

No. 1080 'downrezzed' to 720 does not give you an increase of resolution in 720p.
What it can do is give you 20% more resolution for special effects purposes and etc. I'm currently doing a film on the HVX which I am shooting 720p... but for some special effect shots I am shooting 1080 because I need the extra resolution. Once the special effect/ cg work is done I'll be taking it down to 720 to inter cut with the rest of the film. But when I convert 1080 to 720 I won't be getting a resolution increase. I might actually get a little less then filming 720 from the start.
 
Last edited:
I was just talking about Kyle's post. I don't know why you would.

Truth is, there is a 20% resolution increase when shooting 1080. As long as you don't have to do any variable frame rates and you have ample storage/p2 cards, go for it.

Edit: Can I ask why you are setting your exposure for 80%? Are you referring to a spot reading of Caucasian skin tones?
 
Shoot the best resolution the camera offers. 1080/24pa. It's a cleaner picture, and has greater resolution than 720p.

the only reason I can think of for you to shoot 720 is if you need the added record space per gb, or if you are shooting offspeed in camera. In either of those cases, you would shoot 720PN.

If you are actually going to film out, then shoot 1080. You want the best resolution you can get for a film out and projection on the big screen. 1080 looks a lot cleaner to me. I've gone from shooting exclusively 720p/24pn to now shooting almost exclusively 1080/24pa over the last few months. The difference is obvious (to my eye).

Later,
Jason
 
Jason,

Does the 1080/24pa look as film-like as 720P/24PN? I read a post a while back that said "1080PA looks like video".
 
Although there is some missing information in your post I'll take a swag at what you are looking for. In my opinion, you should try to minimize noise wherever possible:


1) Shoot 1080i/24PA. You will have to account for the pulldown removal of course.
2) Gamma: Black Press
3) Matrix: Cinelike
4) Chroma Level: 0 (Cinelike Matrix is punchy enough, unless you want a cartoon)
5) All other settings to taste, but if you punch up the Detail Level be sure to counter it with Detail Coring.
6) Shoot as bright an exposure as you can. For a bright scene, set your zebras at 80% and 95%, (faces at 80+ and highlights at 95). For a dark scene set your Zebras at 40% and 30%. In post you will stretch the blacks down for a bright scene and crush them for a dark one.

Shoot, print, and view test scenes; don't rely on anything or anyone but your own eyes.

If you do all of this and transfer to film your clean image will pick up film grain in the transfer, but it will still not look right as your depth of focus will be too wide in most situations. One way to correct this is the use of a 35mm adapter (check out the 35mm adapter forum for information on this). A technique that will get the tightest DoF out of the camera as possible would be to lock the camera iris wide open and use a set of external neutral density filters in conjunction with the internal ND filters to reduce the exposure. Not sure how well this would work, but it would maximize what the camera can do.

Its a bitter pill to swallow, but you may consider handing off the DoP / Camera Operator duties to someone more experienced. The project I am putting together I am using a DoP with a Master's degree in film and a Camera Operator who knows the HVX. The DoP will do the 35mm lens selection, lighting, and much of the blocking while the Camera Op gets the most out of the camera during recording. That way I can concentrate on the performance and hundreds of other things that happen on-set.

Best of luck to you,

Bob


Bassem Fayad said:
Hey all .

I am a director/DOP working on an independent production using the HVX200 PAL and transferring to 35mm film.

I am new in this digital to film process and would like to ask for some tips.

first of all, we will have to choose between 1080i/25p and 720p/25p. all the research we've done left us more confused. my opinion is to go for the 720p though my director disagrees. so , any tips regarding this issue ?


2nd,
knowing the limits of the HVX200 I will opt for the following settings:

- lower the detail and vertical detail level to the max in order to avoid video harsh look.
- set the pedestal level to almost +7 trying to gain a stop in the low zones. I understand that noise level will increase dramatically but will be counting on D.I to overcome that .
- chroma level of +2
- cinelike Matrix
- knee , MID
- Gamma HD NORM
- and the vertical detail freq. set to thin !

will count on a Zebra setting of 80% to determine exposure . will avoid over exposures of more than one stop, and underexposures of minus three stops .

Am I thinking right ? any help is appreciated .

thank you in advance ,
Peace
Bassem Fayad
Click to expand...
 
Both will look about the same, except for detail level. Both are progressive, both are the same frame rate, both have the same latitude, therefore, the only difference is detail.

I'd shoot 1080 if my projects were film outs or big budget. It is a little bit sharper than the 720. The difference between 1080 and 720 isn't huge, at least on the HVX200. If you shot on the HPX500 you'd see a bigger difference, but I find the HVX to be a little "fuzzier" than most prosumer HD cams, and I'm usually compensating by turning the detail level up, not down. Otherwise, it sounds like you've got a good start to settings, assuming your gaffer and colorist are really good. I don't know if I'd push the pedestal that far, personally, since you'll probably freak anybody out who's watching the monitor on set and I don't think you'll get much more to work with than you would with a +3 or +4.
 
Bob I have seen several post on here that suggest different on what you just said, claiming that the use of 35mm adapters softens the image for a 35mm print, that for the best film like 35mm print one should avoid adapters all together, please explain a bit more what you said regarding the hvx stock lens being too wide on depth of focus
thanks

Bob Gruen said:
Although there is some missing information in your post I'll take a swag at what you are looking for. In my opinion, you should try to minimize noise wherever possible:


1) Shoot 1080i/24PA. You will have to account for the pulldown removal of course.
2) Gamma: Black Press
3) Matrix: Cinelike
4) Chroma Level: 0 (Cinelike Matrix is punchy enough, unless you want a cartoon)
5) All other settings to taste, but if you punch up the Detail Level be sure to counter it with Detail Coring.
6) Shoot as bright an exposure as you can. For a bright scene, set your zebras at 80% and 95%, (faces at 80+ and highlights at 95). For a dark scene set your Zebras at 40% and 30%. In post you will stretch the blacks down for a bright scene and crush them for a dark one.

Shoot, print, and view test scenes; don't rely on anything or anyone but your own eyes.

If you do all of this and transfer to film your clean image will pick up film grain in the transfer, but it will still not look right as your depth of focus will be too wide in most situations. One way to correct this is the use of a 35mm adapter (check out the 35mm adapter forum for information on this). A technique that will get the tightest DoF out of the camera as possible would be to lock the camera iris wide open and use a set of external neutral density filters in conjunction with the internal ND filters to reduce the exposure. Not sure how well this would work, but it would maximize what the camera can do.

Its a bitter pill to swallow, but you may consider handing off the DoP / Camera Operator duties to someone more experienced. The project I am putting together I am using a DoP with a Master's degree in film and a Camera Operator who knows the HVX. The DoP will do the 35mm lens selection, lighting, and much of the blocking while the Camera Op gets the most out of the camera during recording. That way I can concentrate on the performance and hundreds of other things that happen on-set.

Best of luck to you,

Bob
Click to expand...
 
If you shoot without a 35mm adapter, you're shooting directly to a 1/3" sensor, getting depth-of-field closer to 8mm film than 35mm.

If you shoot with a 35mm adapter, the size of the camera sensor is taken out of the equation, and you'll get depth of field like you would expect from your 35mm lenses. There is a slight diffusion onto the ground glass, but it's not particularly noticable (assuming things are set correctly). You'll also need more light.

35mm adapters aren't for every project, and they still can't overcome the latitude issue of video.
 
well I have done tests at 108024pA with the extreme and for some reasons when I am viewing the footage in a 1080 plasma I can notice some grain on the dark areas and then I take the adapter out and shoot stock lens and the grain is not there
 
Then there's something wrong with your plasma -:)

DVCPRO HD is by nature grainy in dark areas, if you're not shooting the Varicam/HPX 2100 dialect of the codec that shifts bit to darker areas when you need to.

Gunleik
 
aalleexx said:
well I have done tests at 108024pA with the extreme and for some reasons when I am viewing the footage in a 1080 plasma I can notice some grain on the dark areas and then I take the adapter out and shoot stock lens and the grain is not there
Click to expand...

Could be the ground glass of the Adapter . try faster rotation speeds with the adapter 's shutter. it should reduce the grain.
 
Yes

You can acchieve a very clean image by crushing the blacks.
You then suppress details in the dark areas, but the image looks very smooth and pleasing.

Gunleik
 
so it's a progressive scanned image, fragmented AND recorded as two fields.
and the two fields will be used again in post to form one progressive image.
if that's true than 1080i/25p is better resolution image for a film out. right ?
 
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