Nyc Sg Pro - Letus Extreme Shoot Out

[Tim Naylor]

Just finished up a series of tests. Will be posting screen grabs tomorrow and should have H.264 links to view by the end of the weekend.

First off thanks to: Emron, Jamal, Izzy and Kevin for lending me a hand on such short notice.

Let me explain the parameters of the tests:

I wanted to compare sharpness, bokeh, grain, color rendition and ease of use.
Due to time considerations we decided to shoot the tests on my workhorse lens: Nikon 85mm AI, 1.4. We then shot the lenses from 5.6, 4.0, 2.8, 2.0 to 1.4. We also shot a Nikon 80 to 200mm zoom at 80mm and 135mm. Friday, I'll be doing exterior work with wider lenses.

We shot a subject front lit by a 4 x 4 Kino, back lit by a baby with Time's Square in the background as well as a series of makeup table bulbs. This background would prove helpful in judging bokeh.

As the screen grabs aren't up yet, I'll give you the summary for now.

Build:
Both are solidly built but take different approaches. The LE is quite a bit heavier and I wouldn't recommend going with out rods. The only misgiving I have with he SG is the external battery is vulnerable. If already taken one apart and repaired the connections after they wereripped out. Not a common screw up but an operator snagged the wire while taken it off his shoulders and ripped the connections. Radio shack and soldering kit solved the issue. Not a deal breaker by any stretch. I like the SG's ease of mating to the camera much better than the LE.

Set up
I find the LE's ring and set screw mount somewhat precarious. A ring screws on your camera's 82mm thread, then the main housing fits into the ring to then be fastened by three allen head set screws pressing into the metal cylinder of the main housing. This leaves small gouges/marks on the cylinder. In time, I feel this could become a weak point and leave a lot of heartache on the ground for those brave souls who go at it with out rod support. The allen screws should have shim/shoes at the end to spread the pressure, lessen the wear and get a stronger grip. This is the weak point, especially considering the LE's weight. Hopefully this will be addressed in new updates. Otherwise, the build is super solid. The magnetic battery door is pure Bond.

Misgivings: There's dust inside my LE. Quite a bit of it on the inside of the glass on the lens mount side. I've no idea how to get this out short of opening the whole thing. Will write Letus to find out what the story on that is and how to fix it. Second shortcoming is the Nikon mount mine came with. It's somewhat loose on all my lens and clicks into place with quite a bit coaxing. Need to get this replaced ASAP. As LE's customer service thus far has a good rep, I hope to get this taken care of ASAP. Which brings me to the SG's customer service. I had a motor issue (somehow came out of true) and Wayne and Co. took care of me right away.


Light Loss:
Shot a flat evenly lit target, noted the marker level and then added the adaptor w/ 85mm at 1.4 and took note as to how much the marker drops.

SG PRO loses 16 % points (app. 1 stop)
LE loses 12 % points (app 3/4 stop)

The Letus was about 1/4 stop brighter than the SG. This is quite significant, considering the LE has flip optics. I wasn't expecting that.

Sharpness
I'm not quite sure but everyone else in the room felt the LE had an edge on the SG. Not much but noticeable. We did not shoot rez charts, opting for humans instead with noticeable focus chart like razor stubble.

Edge to Edge
Both looked great but I'll have to do a chart test down the road to really find out.

Bokeh
SG Pro wins here in my book. Its out of focus has a more iridescent sharp bokeh. But the LE is no slouch. Not as much as some folks moan about. Do not use the highlight in the back window to judge differences between SG/LE as the Sun began to really hit the building across the street much more during the SG tests.

Contrast:
The SG is less contrasty which may relate to it's ability to produce a better bokeh. However, the price is slightly more light loss and a schmism less sharpness. Though plenty sharp. The difference is most notable in the shadows. It's almost as if the LE has its Master Ped dropped to -2 compared to the SG. I personally found the contrast in the SG to be more neutral.

FRAME GRABS:
HX 200, Cinelike V, Matrix Normal, White Balanced to 1/4 CTB (though it looks like it got screwed up with the SG as it looks warner - sorry). The Mouse over reveals the name of the pic, in that name is relevant info: ie) LE85mm1.4HVX5.6 means Letus Extreme, 85mm Nikon, Fstop 1.4, HVX set at 5.6

These are frame grabs from a 1080 24PA reduced to 720x405 jpeg, so there are obvious compromises but you'll get the gist of the test especially as it relates to bokeh and sharpness. The last two are noteworthy in that they are in what I call "desperation mode", camera's at 1.4 and lens is wide open to 1.4. The worst case scenario for sharpness. However we cheated to get there by use of an ND6 which adds minimal softening (sorry no time to change bulbs and gel windows).

Tim Naylor
www.timnaylor.com

 

[bwest]

hmmmmmmmm no outside today? We had sun in Boston. Like to see something greater than 5.6 stops.
Like to know when that grain kicks in, Ive filmed at F-11 in the sun, with a blue sky in the back, with no grain, It just gets sharper and sharper. But thanks for your time and shootout... it helps

 

[Chenopup]

Thanks for the update, Tim. Looking forward to the grabs.

cheno

 

[Christopher Barry]

Same, should be a good test. :beer:

 

[Lenilenapi]

Tim,

Thanks for the work, looking forward to the pics.

Bunch of questions. Sorry to nit-pick, but having done my own tests I know how a little thing can throw one off.

1 - Was this on an HVX?

2 - If so what was the gamma and what was the knee setting?

3 - Did you use the same camera for both tests?
(We had 2 cameras ready but discovered that one camera was a 1/4 stop faster than the other!)

4 - What were the zoom figures on the HVX for each adapter, and were you going for full SLR frame or academy?

5 - When you gave the loss in target IRE points what were they in absolute numbers. (the percentage of stop will be different higher or lower)

6. Did you test at 2.8 as well as 1.4. If you read my tests this can be extremely significant, and can really bias the tests since most people prefer to work at 2.8.
(More important with the Brevis though)

7. Very odd that my tests revealed just the opposite exposure difference between the SGPro and the Letus Extreme. I had a Rev2 but I would be surprised if a Rev3 wasslower.
Actually in both our tests I don't think the speed difference between them was that great, and considering that Wayne is buying his flip from Letus and says it has 97% transmission they should still stay relatively close.


7.

 

[jenningsp]

i second everything Lenilenapi said.

 

[Wayne Kinney]

A very thorough test, Tim!

Cons:
SG: No flip, loses more light
LE: Awkward Set up, limited shutter speed and f stop

The flip module is being released next month

 

[TimurCivan]

the rev2 is a bit faster...... at least mine is.

DAmmit... now i hafta buy ANOTHER 35mm adapter..... I have 3 already.....

 

[Kholi]

Timur did you go out with Naylor to check out the LEX?

 

[TimurCivan]

nah i wasnt there. unfortunatly.....

 

[Ted Spencer]

Tim,

Thanks for the work, looking forward to the pics.

Bunch of questions. Sorry to nit-pick, but having done my own tests I know how a little thing can throw one off.

1 - Was this on an HVX?

2 - If so what was the gamma and what was the knee setting?

3 - Did you use the same camera for both tests?
(We had 2 cameras ready but discovered that one camera was a 1/4 stop faster than the other!)

4 - What were the zoom figures on the HVX for each adapter, and were you going for full SLR frame or academy?

5 - When you gave the loss in target IRE points what were they in absolute numbers. (the percentage of stop will be different higher or lower)

6. Did you test at 2.8 as well as 1.4. If you read my tests this can be extremely significant, and can really bias the tests since most people prefer to work at 2.8.
(More important with the Brevis though)

7. Very odd that my tests revealed just the opposite exposure difference between the SGPro and the Letus Extreme. I had a Rev2 but I would be surprised if a Rev3 wasslower.
Actually in both our tests I don't think the speed difference between them was that great, and considering that Wayne is buying his flip from Letus and says it has 97% transmission they should still stay relatively close.


7.

I can answer some of these, since I was at the shootout yesterday (apparently I'm the "Kevin" that Tim referred to - I guess he's almost as bad at remembering people's names as I am). I'll just mention what I'm certain I know the answers to:

1. Yes it was on an HVX (Tim's).

2. Gamma was Cine-Like V. Not sure about the knee.

3. Yes Tim's camera was used exclusively. I brought mine, and Kwan had his there (the test took place in his studio). We had originally planned to use two cameras (possibly even three since Kwan also had a Brevis adapter) but we discussed the possibility of camera differences affecting the results, and decided to play it safe.

4. I was writing settings down on a slate for each shot, and I recall that the Letus, which we tested first, was set at Zoom 72 and focus was at 49. IIRC the SG Pro was zoomed to 69, and I'm not sure what the focus was.

5. Tim can answer this

6. We dialed the camera up from wide open and the lens down *to* wide open in steps as we went along, attempting to keep a consistent, usable exposure/image the whole time as we traded one iris off against the other. All the settings we used were captured on the slate. IIRC we passed through f2.8 on both camera and lens as we went along.

7. Tim can elaborate, but all of us saw what he reported - the Letus was significantly more light-efficient under otherwise identical circumstances. It was also, as he reported, signficantly sharper. Personally, I felt that the color representation was better on the Letus. Can't speak for the others.

I've got more to say, but with respect to Tim, I'll wait a little longer for him to get back on this thread before I do.

It was a very enlightening test, and it pretty much decided me on getting a Letus Extreme.

 

[Lenilenapi]

Timur,
Well that explains it I guess - no kidding your Rev2 is faster? Do you think its as much as a 1/2 stop? Why would that be? Is the Rev3 sharper or have any other advantage? Does it have the same diffusing screen?

Thanks Ted, Z69 vs 72 shouldn't throw the exposure differences off significantly.

Re color representation - Do you think that's anything that wouldn't be easily tweakable with minor setting changes in the scene file menu? Did you try to paint them each to match?

Sharpness is interesting. I didn't really try to test that carefully except to look at a chart and they all looked good, but a real image with lots of detail could be more revealing. You make me want to do more testing myself.
Do you know what your detail setting was? How did you set the focus on them?

Tim reported a 1/4 stop difference but from the way you speak it sounds like more.

- Lenny

 

[Ted Spencer]

Re color representation - Do you think that's anything that wouldn't be easily tweakable with minor setting changes in the scene file menu? Did you try to paint them each to match?

We didn't try any form of compensation for the color difference, although IIRC Tim said his camera's chroma level was dialed back a bit. It was the same for both adapters though. I felt the SG's color looked a bit less vivid - if I were to put it less kindly, slightly washed-out by comparison. But still perfectly acceptable. I should let Tim be the one to comment on the difficulty or ease of matching the color. Perhaps he's already experimented with it by now.

Sharpness is interesting. I didn't really try to test that carefully except to look at a chart and they all looked good, but a real image with lots of detail could be more revealing. You make me want to do more testing myself.
Do you know what your detail setting was? How did you set the focus on them?

Detail was at 0.

Tim set up both adapters as I watched, having no previous experience myself aside from what I've read about them, mostly here. He focused the HVX on the adapters' ground glass, then we used a Panasonic BT-LH1700W monitor along with the camera's focus assist for focusing the 35mm lenses on the subject (Tim's friend Izzy). We used the waveform monitor to pretty accurately match the shots' exposure as we went through the various iris settings.

Tim reported a 1/4 stop difference but from the way you speak it sounds like more.

I noticed it clearly, but it could have been a quarter-stop I suppose. Between it and what I perceived as a color difference, the look change was immediately apparent to me.

 

[Tim Naylor]

Screen grabs are up in my initial post along with some revised observations.

Regarding light loss, I did this pointing at a lit white wall. I dialed my lenses f stop to 50 percent and then pulled the whole contraption. Making sure my naked HVX had the same framing, I noted the percentage difference. Not as scientific or as accurate as a waveform which I plan to do with my next test.

Looking at the images side by side, I'm torn. I know Ted likes the LE better, but I find the lower contrast in the SG more natural to my eye. This lower contrast also explains the differences in saturation.

Somehow, we screwed up matching the white balance. I balanced the SG warmer than the LE. I white balanced both to 1/4 CTB but we used a different swatch book for the SG (as I couldn't find mine). Being Emrom's newer swatch book, the color on the swatch book isn't as faded as mine (both Lee's) and that's why the SG has a warmer look. Will try to match them later so you can judge it better. So do not think of the SG as being a warmer look.

Concerning light loss on the test. I would say 1/4 to 1/3 may be more accurate. As you'll note in the screen grabs, there's no 5.6 for the SG. We couldn't get there. I'd say I was about 1/3 of stop on my wave form from matching.

What sucks about this test is that I love them both. I was hoping for a clear winner so I could sell the loser. Adaptors are like crack, you just keep buying more. I may be compelled to keep both of them. Despite it's shortcoming compared to the LE, the Bokeh and F stop and shutter flexibility of the SG makes it a keeper. For me, Bokeh is what really gives a picture a photographic (read less video like) quality. Get me SG's Bokeh on the LE's convenience factor and you got a winner. Wait a minute, is that an SG flip module on the horizon. Damn, got to put that adaptor pipe down....


Now here's a real eye opener. We tested Emrom's 80-200mm, 2.8 Nikon Zoom and whoaa....talk about a sharp lens. Blows away any of my cost a fortune primes.

Look at these grabs and weep. Mouse over reveals info: LE80-200mm2.8HVX2.8 means LETUS EXTREME, Nikon 80-200 at 2.8, HVX 200 at 2.8. Aside from being sharper than my coveted 85mm 1.4 it also reveals the differences in Bokeh, especially at the 135mm. I truly find the SG's Bokeh, in the area to the left of the light bulbs more defined and shimmering. You can see the iris outline as where it turns to mud on the LE. Very little difference in the larger bulbs. However, the "stubble"chart" reveals a sharper LE. Not huge but noticeable. Which one do I find more "cinematic"is a tough call. The point sources in the Sg are brighter and flare larger yet their outline is more defined. I feel this gives a more three dimensional look as where the muddy less defined bokeh is more two dimensional. However, for a large screen, I think the LE's sharpness would really come into play, especially on anything over 40 inches.

Which is better depends on your priority. Sharpness vs Bokeh. Flip vs Non Flips. Higher Contrast vs Lower Contrast.

It ain't easy. If I had to choose one, I would change my mind with the next project. But it'll probably go like this. People who are "quantifyers" you know, horsepower over character, resolution over anything, Clock Speed over Interface, will go for the LE. Those who like a little "magic" in their image or the inexplicable totally unnatural impressionistic beauty of bokeh will opt for the SG. In otherwords, I see technicians and "rez counters" buying the LE more and more of the artistically inclined going for the SG. It's like lenses. I find Zeiss Ultra Primes or Panavision Primos the sharpest lenses ever made, bar none. But when it comes to pure beauty I'll take Cooke S4's in a heartbeat even though they'd lose out on a rez chart. In fact, I'll take Nikons over Zeiss despite not shooting rez charts as well.

Anyway, when the Bokeh of Sg meets the sharpness of the LE, who knows, we may not even need adaptors by then. Hopefully they mate sooner than later.

 

[SilverWolf]

Thanks Tim for the test. I can notice the difference in the sharpness in the adapters. It's not major but I can see it. How did you get your HVX footage so clean ?

 

[Kholi]

Nice looking stills and thoughts, Naylor. Totally unbiased and well-footed. I think once the SGpro's Flip module comes out you'll be totally satisfied. After all, Quyen's bringing his own custom flare to the SGpro line-up so you know it's gonna be great.

Sounds like EXACTLY what you want.

I'm with Silverwolf in saying that I can definitely see the difference in sharpness in those stills. I'd like to say "1080 please", but they're both the same size stills so that won't do much more than expose that it is sharper.

Thanks again for your thoughts.

Give us some moooooving footages.

 

[Jason Ramsey]

odd how the white balance looks different on each of the adapters.

 

[Tim Naylor]

I'll get 1080 pics up over the weekend. Until then, this is the best I can do.

 

[Tim Naylor]

Thanks Tim for the test. I can notice the difference in the sharpness in the adapters. It's not major but I can see it. How did you get your HVX footage so clean ?

In terms of clean, not quite sure what you mean, but I think you might be referring to the contrast/lighting. Half of lighting is composition. I always try to compose for depth. In terms of lighting, I keep it real simple. Best advice I ever got was put something real dark in the frame and something real bright and leave a third in the middle and you'll have decent depth and contrast. I make conscious efforts to have deep blacks and blown out highlights (something I often find unacceptable without an adaptor that I used to do all the time in film). Never got used to all the highlight no no's in video. With the adaptors clipping is much more acceptable in the background. The bulbs and the parts of the window were way outside legal. Wthout an adaptor it begins to look artificial.

Anyway, there are exceptions to everything but that's my basic MO. Foreground, background, light and dark.

Glad to discuss this more in depth in another thread on lighting.

Tim

 

[Tim Naylor]

odd how the white balance looks different on each of the adapters.

Read my last thread with the four pictures. It explains how I screwed it up.