Bad rendered image. Need Help!

W

wilka26

Member
I am trying to render my movie so I can put it on a DVD, but whenever there is a lot of fast action the image doesn't look too great. It looks just fine in the my vegas preview window, but the rendered picture doesn't. I shot the film with a Canon HV20 and the clips are imported as .m2t's

Image in preview:
http://moviespoof.milneyfilms.com/Image1.jpg

Rendered image:
http://moviespoof.milneyfilms.com/Image0.jpg

I'm using the HDV 1440 24p project template and haven't changed any settings. I'm trying to render it as an .avi (NTSC Wide 24p, 2-3 pulldown) and I have this problem, same when I go to .mpg-2
 
I'm guessing you shot in 24p mode?

The problem comes from editing in 24p and exporting in 24p with footage from the HV20 -- Vegas can't remove the pulldown properly from the footage, so you're in essence editing 60i footage, not 24p footage. You probably won't see a problem in 60% of your frames, but you'll see artifacting in every two out of five frames.

Then, what happens when you export as 24p is that Vegas does not just export 24 clean progressive frames from your footage; it does a conversion of 60 fields into 24 frames -- discarding some fields and splicing together others in order to create 24 full frames. In theory, this could work out if it happens to discard the correct fields and splice the correct ones together to make the original 24 frames, but the chances of that are pretty slim.

And where you're going to see the most problem is in the high motion, because the difference in position of objects, people, etc., between fields is much more than that of no or low motion. In essence, during the conversion process, it's making a full 24p frame out of a few different 60i fields, and each from a different moment in time, so each has your actors and other moving objects in very different places -- resulting in what you're seeing there.

My guess is that your project "deinterlace method" is set to "Blend Fields." You may be able to alleviate the problem somewhat by choosing "Interpolate Fields." That should at least cut down on some of the ghosting.

But the method which will eliminate the problem the most would be to edit as 1080-60i and export to DVD as NTSC, not 24p. True, it won't be a 24p DVD, and there will be some interlace artifacting if you watch the DVD on a progressive screen, but the results will probably be more favorable, overall. It'll still LOOK like 24p.

Your other option is to use other software (After Effects, etc., not 100% sure what else) to remove the pulldown before you edit, then you can edit in native 24p and export a true 24p DVD.
 
I have After Effects 6.5 and it doesn't really work well with .m2t files. Do more recent versions support m2t and how would I go about removing the pulldown in After Effects?
 
I just did a test in Vegas 8. Took an m2t file that was recorded at 24f on my Canon XH A1. and used 24p/1080 HDV for a project setting, exported it as a wmv at 6.4Mbps 1080 24P HDV. I did not have to remove pull down at all in AE. It appears to me once Vegas has removed the pulldown, you need not do it anymore.
 
The HV20 *needs* pulldown removal before using it in a 24p timeline. And this doesn't happen with Vegas, you need to remove it beforehand and resave it and then import it to Vegas. Otherwise, just edit in 60i.
 
Kdawg said:
I just did a test in Vegas 8. Took an m2t file that was recorded at 24f on my Canon XH A1. and used 24p/1080 HDV for a project setting, exported it as a wmv at 6.4Mbps 1080 24P HDV. I did not have to remove pull down at all in AE. It appears to me once Vegas has removed the pulldown, you need not do it anymore.
Click to expand...

That's because 24f isn't recorded in a 60i stream; there's no pulldown to remove. It's already 23.976. It's the same as the JVC HDx00 series.

The HV20 doesn't work that way -- the 24p is recorded in a 60i stream with 2:3 pulldown, just like the DVX does with standard pulldown, except that it doesn't include pulldown flags for automatic removal like the DVX does.

So, in order to edit HV20 footage as native 24p in Vegas, you need to remove the pulldown elsewhere, as I stated above.
 
Hey, thats actually good news to me David. I'll take your word for it, considering the extent of your knowledge in the 24P relm. I have just been reading things here and there like this post over at the Cow....

The Panasonic DVX-100B 24P is recorded in DV as 24P in 60i. The XH-A1 records 24F in 60i in DV the same way. Both need to have the pull down removed to have true 24 frames. The DVX chips are progressive and the XH-A1 chips are interlaced but the frames are integrated by the processor so in DV they are essentially the same. The advantage of the XHA1 is it can record HDV which the DVX 100B can't and that is where things get more complex.
Click to expand...

Also watching your video clip on Vegas detecting and removing pulldown automatically, I figured the HV20 would be in the same boat. Not meaning to hijack the original thread, just tried to help with the settings I use, but I am obviously not comparing apples to apples.

I hope you get your problem solved Wilka26
 
The A1 uses pulldown when recording in SD, but not HD, and also if downconverting to SD from HD.

Unfortunately, the video was made for DV (DVX, XL2) and may or may not apply to the various HD camcorders which have sprung up like weeds. I plan to do an update one of these days.
 
Thanks Eugenia, your method worked great and fixed the problem. A little long-winded because I'm on windows, but worked all the same. Now my only problem for future projects is the file size since it's a lot bigger than the m2t's. If I go the After Effects route of removing the pull-down will the file size issue no longer be an issue since it supports m2t?
 
If you use After Effects to "interpret" the 24p-in-60i as 24p, you will just use the .m2t files as captured. You don't need to remove pulldown beforehand, AE does it on the fly.

If you use Vegas, you will need to use these new created huge files. But after you finish editing, you can always save to more user-appropriate formats, like h.264 which are not so huge.

The choice is yours. :-)
 
Eugenia Loli-Queru said:
If you use After Effects to "interpret" the 24p-in-60i as 24p, you will just use the .m2t files as captured. You don't need to remove pulldown beforehand, AE does it on the fly.

If you use Vegas, you will need to use these new created huge files. But after you finish editing, you can always save to more user-appropriate formats, like h.264 which are not so huge.

The choice is yours. :-)
Click to expand...

What I'm asking is, can you import it into AE, remove the pulldown and export it back to .m2t and then edit in Vegas? Saying it another way, is the only to edit the 24p in Vegas is to have the big .avi?
 
Wow, this is all very frustrating and extremely annoying. Another huge step. More huge files. Lots of long rendering. Just to get my footage IN to Vegas.

I just finished a 30 min project shot on HV20, edited in Vegas, which I planned to color correct in After Effects CS3. I'm having all these output problems when I try to render out of After Effects, and I'm thinking this non-pre-pulldown in After Effects before I go into Vegas is the problem.

Here are a few questions. My copy of After Effects CS3 does not accept m2t files. How can it be that I have the latest version of AE and this doesn't work? Obviously, this is important as the above workflow kinda depends on After Effects being able to convert the footage.

Second. What kind of file should I render out of AE with (assuming I can get in there)?

Third. Is there any easy way to replace all of my original edits in the project with this new footage? Or am I going to have to start all over and re-insert every little edit on the timeline with the new files?

Chris
 
You can right-click and "Replace" any footage in your media pool. You just have to make sure what you're replacing it with matches to the frame.

I don't have problems importing m2t files into AE CS3.

As for rendering out, I'd do it in an intraframe codec, or as uncompressed.
 
As per my question, anyone know? Import into AE, remove pulldown and export back out as m2t to edit in Vegas?
 
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