The HVX's Supposed New Competition

puredrifting

puredrifting

Major Contributor
Hi all:

Thought you might find this interesting, it's a hands on preview of a prototype of Sony's new competitor, the PMW-EX1 XDCAM camcorder. http://simonwyndham.co.uk/xdcam-pmw-ex1.html
While it seems to have some pretty nice features, it also looks to have some Sony bad decisions to it as well.

Of course, this is a work in progress though, perhaps Sony will get it right. Personally, I don't like the codec but it does have some nice features that hopefully Panasonic will add to an HVX-200A, mainly a nice manual style lens.

Enjoy!

Dan
 
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I hate it. It's ugly.


Seriously, That Simon Wyndham dude is a super Sony zealot. Surprised that he didn't give it a more glowing, gushing review.

By the time that thing gets up to speed I'll order my Red.
 
Hey Adam,

I know Simon is a Sony fanatic but you know what, it's all good for us. The better features they come out with, the better Panasonic will have to come out with.

I just watched the Off Hollywood presentation at TekServe in NYC, talking about their RED experience. I have to say, it is the very definition of "disruptive technology", it's truly amazing. Unfortunately, I have too many non-business bills to pay off to spend $40,000.00 for a package but I will definitely be renting one to learn it. RED is going to change everything in a HUGE way, it has to. Once people see what they can have...

The biggest thing for me is not the 4k or the cool features or the fact that it's cost to thrill ratio is higher than any other camera in history. The biggest deal is that it is
M O D U L A R!!!! When they introduce a new, better sensor, just buy it and you have a new state of the art camera. When new recording technology like holographic RAM becomes available, hook it up. Use your old V-mount batteries. Configure it for studio, confiigure it for handheld, etc. That is a whole new mindset for us video geeks. I am also very interested in what Jim has up his sleeve for the RED "pocketcam".

Exciting times we live and shoot in, huh?

Dan
 
Dan - Agree completely with your red assesment. That's what thrills me the most - the modularity of it.

As for Panny - I love the HVX. I would consider Hydra before RED if Juan finished it by end of 2007, but the cool thing with RED is I feel like I'm ahead of the curve. Way ahead of the curve.

I could really care less about 4k - that isn't the be all / end all.
 
If we know Sony, the audio will suck balls. One comment at your link seems to suggest it will as well.
 
Will RED have any competition on tech in the near future? Or do they have patents to prevent it outright?
 
The lure of HDV or Mpeg compression in general is the ability to shoot to
non-destructive media, be it tape or optical disc. Shooting HDV to expensive flash media? I dont get it.


ash =o)
 
the long gop, even at 35mb is still gross, not digging it. there's a reason the hvx is so solid, DVCProHD.
 
I wonder if Sony sends their rebates anywhere near the time frame they specify. We all know Panasonic does not seem to care.
 
Keep in mind that this camera is a direct response to the HVX-200 and all of the people that they wanted to sell Z1s and V1s to that decided the HVX was better. Sony does some things really well, but the fact that they are selling tape, card, disc and solid state camcorders tells me that they are lost and are just hedging their bets as to what will take off as far as recording media.

This camera has some cool features but it would not make me sell my HVX off to buy one. Long GOP is a joke and I do agree, the audio may be pretty bad. Sony has a horrendous track record with audio quality in their low-end camcorders (anyone recall how terrible all of the PD-150/170 sounded?). The only good thing is that this camera pushes Panasonic to make the HVX-200A or whatever new low end camcorders they come out with in the next two years better.

The HVX isn't perfect but at least they got the audio right, the HVX has pretty high quality sound.

Best,

Dan
 
William_Robinette said:
Seriously,

Shoot with XDcam-HD 35mbps. It's not bad at all.
Click to expand...

Sure. I've seen some HDV footage that actually looks good.
But in a long term and if you really need to work on post you should not consider any GOP acquiring format.

Sony is losing a lot of ground in the "prosumer" market and it starting to look quite desperate trying to match the HVX.

RED will make all of this much more interesting.
 
I guess. It still holds up a lot better then DV, and people are/have done amazing things with stuff from a DVX or XL2. Different strokes. I would have no problem shooting XDcamHD @ 35mbps (and do frequently) and working with it in post, so these blanket statements about the "XDcam long GOP" codec being poo just don't hold true, I can attest to that.
 
puredrifting said:
Sony does some things really well, but the fact that they are selling tape, card, disc and solid state camcorders tells me that they are lost and are just hedging their bets ......................
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Hedging bets maybe, but I'm not sure about being lost.

Fact is that each of tape, card or disc suits some operators better than the others at the moment, and having effectively three ranges gives them three bites at the marketing cherry, so more possible total sales. I know at least one ex DVX100 user who would have dearly loved to have stayed Panasonic, but needed to stay tape at present for what I would agree (for him) were very valid reasons. He now shoots on a Z1.

Had the HVX offered HDV to the tape deck as well as DVCProHD to the cards, he would have almost certainly gone that route. (And been much happier.)
 
AshG said:
The lure of HDV or Mpeg compression in general is the ability to shoot to non-destructive media, be it tape or optical disc. Shooting HDV to expensive flash media? I dont get it.
Click to expand...


Damn good point, Ash.
I'm right there with you.
:thumbsup:
 
I just don't see the sense of another long gop codec either. Yes they work, we know they work as long as you are shooting something it can manage. It can also turn to total crap when you shoot something it cannot handle.

The new camera is constant bit rate which should be a big step up from the VBR HDV however, those of us who work with this stuff in post also know that even if the pictures look great, there will still be headaches in post and arguments over whether to ingest as an i-frame codec.

If we are going to work with an i-frame, why shoot long gop. Makes no sense to me at all. It did make sense when I was going to shoot HDV to tape but to flash media? I want the best codec I can get and at the moment that is still DVCPROHD. Looks like Sony are willing to swallow their pride and come out with a copy of the HVX but still can't admit that an i-frame codec makes more sense and is widely acknowledged to be so.
 
Richard Sutcliffe said:
The new camera is constant bit rate which should be a big step up from the VBR HDV
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I think you've got it backwards; HDV is CBR, and XDCAM HQ is VBR with extra bandwidth. VBR is a good thing.

XDCAM 35 Mbs is a thoroughly modern interframe codec. It's not HDV, and for that matter not all HDV is created equal. Some HDV camera codecs are better than others.

I haven't heard of any compression issues from XDCAM shooters that use the 35 mbs recording mode.

I think the camera's overall performance is far more important than the differences between DVCPRO HD and XDCAM compression. The 1/2" chips, 1000 lines horizontal res, full raster recording, manual lens, CA compensation processing, F10 sensitivity and claimed 54 dB S/N aren't exactly irrelevant specs. There's also embedded HD-SDI so if you really need more than XDCAM compression there are some interesting options coming along, such as the Convergent Designs Flash XDR recorder. ttp://www.convergent-design.com/downloads/Flash%20XDR.pdf

I think it's a promising offering from Sony. We'll soon see how well it performs once it's shipping.
 
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Elton said:
.......... for that matter not all HDV is created equal. Some HDV camera codecs are better than others.
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You make a very good and accurate point which is not widely understood. Being MPEG2 defines many factors about a signal, and how it should be decoded, but not specifically how it should be ENcoded. Everybody knows pretty much what a hamburger is....... but compare one from a gourmet restaurant with that from a cheap supermarket and they are two very different experiences! Same with cameras - all MPEG coders are not equal, and it shouldn't be a surprise that an expensive camera is likely to have a better one than a cheaper camera.
AshG said:
The lure of HDV or Mpeg compression in general is the ability to shoot to non-destructive media, be it tape or optical disc. Shooting HDV to expensive flash media? I dont get it.
Click to expand...
The lure of MPEG is to get the data rate down for a given quality. (At the expense of editing complexity.) That then enables either the use of cheap tape drives (so HDV, and yes, consumable media) or much longer record times on solid state - so 3x the record time per GB compared to DVCProHD. More than one person I know is keen to use solid state, but so far put off by the economics with P2. The EX is seen as a way to go solid state much sooner than waiting for P2 and 100Mbs pricing to come down to a level viable for them.

OK, if absolute quality is paramount, then maybe long-GOP etc may not be ideal (though I don't think the problems are as bad as some imply) - but in that case surely ANY camera with 1/3" chips, servo iris and focus etc, is a far bigger compromise? I could understand the arguments far better if we were talking about high end cameras - HPX3000 v F23, say - far less about cameras in this price bracket.
 
Interesting article. I agree. Ugly bugga... Why do they make 'em look so consumer and low-rent? and I'm certainly a big hater on the consumer Sony cameras.. the big boy production models are a different story. I'm sure I'd grow to hate that LCD too.


but what's the deal with them saying that you can only use sony Express cards? hmmmm I do agree that competition is good and it will help us all out, but talk about being a Johnny come Lately and being a late arriver to the party. I will have had my HVX for almost 2 years and made all those lovely images before this is a reality...
 
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