Record uncompressed 14-bit (4:4:4) on your HVX200

Marketmd, everyone appreciates your logic on the topic. At the moment, you're bordering on trolling which is a DVXuser offense.

If you have any questions, feel free to ask them. Otherwise, it's probably best to veer away from cluttering this thread with such things.
 
marketmd said:
When can I order it? Also will it record audio, unlike the Andromeda?
Click to expand...

According to Reel Stream, the projected release date is the end of 2007. Again, to make comparisons, Red One was like several months late, but I don't hear too many people griping over their manufacturer trying to provide a first generation camera, without the typical first generation frustrations.

As for audio YES, it will. Andromeda does not, but at the same time, people have sworn by 35mm film, which also does not record sound. Sync sound is nothing new and nothing to be afraid of whatsoever, its usually "ENG video people" who gripe over this issue.

I wouldn't say Andromeda is "riddled with problems" either. I've used it on several shoots that are broadcasting far beyond the local level (about 25 states), so apparently serious clients can be sold on the system, and I didn't even get to supervise post on them either! Though, to be fair, I did give them explicit instructions on how to ensure a smooth post work flow and wind up with the highest possible quality master. I didn't hear any complaints mid way thru post about the work flow. When I can get permission, I'll post a link to the spot.

I'm currently looking over a small indi feature film offer that not only wants me to be the projects DP, but they are also very interested in possibly using Andromeda for it. I'll find out more this week.
 
If the Hydra would [supposedly] provide 86 dB of dynamic range, does this mean that a HVX\Hydra system would rival film in terms of latitude?
 
karapetkov said:
If the Hydra would [supposedly] provide 86 dB of dynamic range, does this mean that a HVX\Hydra system would rival film in terms of latitude?
Click to expand...

In theory, any 12 bit ADC hooked up to an analog sensor should be able to provide a full 12 stops. The Red One uses a 12 bit setup, but in reality, they can only pull in around 11-11.5 depending on who you ask.

How many shades of gray you can capture depends largely on two major things:

1.)Bit depth/sampling/compression (ok, so maybe thats a few things LOL)

2.) Sensor quality.

Its clearly feasible to create ADC's that run at very high bit depths, the Dalsa Origin uses 16 bit!

The big hang up though is the sensor itself. If a sensor can't PHYSICALLY output 16 stops worth of latitude, then guess what... 16 bit sampling coupled with either uncompressed 4:4:4 sampling (for CCD cameras) or RAW (for bayer filtered CMOS cameras), isn't going to give you 16 stops. If its physical max is only 5 stops, then thats all you'll ever get, the rest of what you gain is purely sensor noise.

Make sense?

Another variable that seems seldom discussed is white balance in three chip cameras. White balance settings and filtration can alter how much usable range you capture, especially in the highlights. The Viper Filmstream takes this into account, and its also the reason why the video comes out looking green.

Another variable, at the sensor level, is the actual size of the sensors photosites. If I'm not mistaken, the DVX and HVX use the same size sensors, but the HVX has smaller photosites. The issue with smaller photosites has to with their ability to capture light. Smaller means lower performance, assuming nothing has been changed, like using better materials to make the sensor. Smaller photosite sensors usually have a higher noise floor (meaning noise is more evident), and they tend to have less latitude, due to their difficulty in picking up light. One of the major reasons why larger broadcast cameras perform better than Mini DV cameras has a lot to do with the sensors photosite size, the other is better signal processing, and this is very evident with the Andromeda. Its sensors put it at a disadvantage compared to larger cameras, but because the user has raw sensor data without any compromises, its capable of beating the larger cameras performance on so many levels, despite using an "ok" level lens. You reach a point where great lenses and bigger chips simply don't add up when you put the resulting signal thru processing hell.....

For those who are wondering, I'm currently pulling a full 9.5 stops out of the Andromeda, and I'm recording to 10 bit via a 12 to 10 bit LUT. Why I can't get a full 10 could have something to do with the LUT and its output precision, or, I could be hitting the sensors physical limit. I can't be sure until the 12 bit linear firmware upgrade is released. Even if I don't extend my range, I can be sure that I will have even better color to work with, which is always a plus in my book.

Since I haven't worked with Hydra, I can only speculate on how good the specs will be, but even if the camera has less latitude than the Andromeda, it will still be a huge leap up from what a stock HVX could ever offer, that much I'm sure of.

Hope that helps!
 
I wish he'd hurry up and get it to market already. I want to shoot my feature on it in the spring, and frankly, I like the idea of gig ethernet for ease of workflow. No back and forth with P2 cards. Magic....
 
cardmaverick said:
In theory, any 12 bit ADC hooked up to an analog sensor should be able to provide a full 12 stops. The Red One uses a 12 bit setup, but in reality, they can only pull in around 11-11.5 depending on who you ask.

How many shades of gray you can capture depends largely on two major things:

1.)Bit depth/sampling/compression (ok, so maybe thats a few things LOL)

2.) Sensor quality.

Its clearly feasible to create ADC's that run at very high bit depths, the Dalsa Origin uses 16 bit!

The big hang up though is the sensor itself. If a sensor can't PHYSICALLY output 16 stops worth of latitude, then guess what... 16 bit sampling coupled with either uncompressed 4:4:4 sampling (for CCD cameras) or RAW (for bayer filtered CMOS cameras), isn't going to give you 16 stops. If its physical max is only 5 stops, then thats all you'll ever get, the rest of what you gain is purely sensor noise.

Make sense?

Another variable that seems seldom discussed is white balance in three chip cameras. White balance settings and filtration can alter how much usable range you capture, especially in the highlights. The Viper Filmstream takes this into account, and its also the reason why the video comes out looking green.

Another variable, at the sensor level, is the actual size of the sensors photosites. If I'm not mistaken, the DVX and HVX use the same size sensors, but the HVX has smaller photosites. The issue with smaller photosites has to with their ability to capture light. Smaller means lower performance, assuming nothing has been changed, like using better materials to make the sensor. Smaller photosite sensors usually have a higher noise floor (meaning noise is more evident), and they tend to have less latitude, due to their difficulty in picking up light. One of the major reasons why larger broadcast cameras perform better than Mini DV cameras has a lot to do with the sensors photosite size, the other is better signal processing, and this is very evident with the Andromeda. Its sensors put it at a disadvantage compared to larger cameras, but because the user has raw sensor data without any compromises, its capable of beating the larger cameras performance on so many levels, despite using an "ok" level lens. You reach a point where great lenses and bigger chips simply don't add up when you put the resulting signal thru processing hell.....

For those who are wondering, I'm currently pulling a full 9.5 stops out of the Andromeda, and I'm recording to 10 bit via a 12 to 10 bit LUT. Why I can't get a full 10 could have something to do with the LUT and its output precision, or, I could be hitting the sensors physical limit. I can't be sure until the 12 bit linear firmware upgrade is released. Even if I don't extend my range, I can be sure that I will have even better color to work with, which is always a plus in my book.

Since I haven't worked with Hydra, I can only speculate on how good the specs will be, but even if the camera has less latitude than the Andromeda, it will still be a huge leap up from what a stock HVX could ever offer, that much I'm sure of.

Hope that helps!
Click to expand...

Sure it helps! Very clean and clear explanation, thanks. :thumbsup:
 
if i got 9 stops id wet myself....

been working with 35mm this week. 12stops on 5285 reala, and like 11 and change on 5218 vision2. its so delicious to keep the sky exposed, as well as highlights with detail when shooting indoor scenes with natural light. though in reality depending on your print, it gets reduced to a very hvx like 7 stops on the reversal print. though you can now choose where you want the dynamic range through your timer.

being able to choose where you want your hydra/andromeda footage to lay when converting to 8bit broadcast is equally sweet.

i really am interested in hydra.

just it needs to run on pc......
 
TimurCivan said:
just it needs to run on pc......
Click to expand...

Windows runs on mac. Get off your butt and pick up a macbook pro already. I've got a 250 gig harddrive in my laptop and it's no sweat to switch between the two operating systems. In fact, it's like having two computers in one.
 
Juan has announced PC support at the Reel Stream forum actually....

Search around, you should be able to find it.
 
for audio on the HVX couldn't you roll the P2 card and record audio and hit record on the PC/Mac to start the andro and then sync later? Or does andro interrupt the P2 deck?
 
AFAIK the P2 is not affected so i'm pretty sure the P2 runs at the same time and records audio, so you can sync it later. plus you still get the video on the P2 in case your computer suddenly explodes or something
 
Avenger007 said:
for audio on the HVX couldn't you roll the P2 card and record audio and hit record on the PC/Mac to start the andro and then sync later? Or does andro interrupt the P2 deck?
Click to expand...

Andromeda is the name of the modification inside the DVX100

The HVX modification is called Hydra.

Both cameras record to a program called Sculptor HD

The Hydra will be able to send audio and video to the computer, so no syncing needed.

Neither of these modifications affects the cameras normal stock operation, even when your capturing to Sculptor HD.
 
Ok, so if I had a dead pixel and sent it in to panasonic to be masked, will Hydra work on my HVX and not show the dead/masked out pixel? Or will it become un masked in the image recorded to the sulptorHD program, since it uses all of the available pixels on the ccds?
 
hey juan, i know you're a busy man, but dude like this thread has about 55,000 views

.......maybe you should provide at least a teaser clip or some kind of info..or something:thumbsup:
 
I got all excited when I typed the reel-stream.com address into my browser and was directed to the forum instead of the main page, I thought that Juan was possibly updating the page with some new info.
But then I figured out that there was just something wrong with his server. :(
 
yaa i got that too, but that dont affect that the HYDRA is coming.

Juan, please give us something. cant wait anymore. well maybe a little.....very little....OK thats all i can do. wheres HYDRA
 
Haven't checked back for a while but I see the soap opera is still going. Is it still coming out end of the year i.e. in 6 weeks tops? I somehow doubt it, as they didn't keep up with anything they promised at NAB like the first clips etc.
Don't want to be negative, but I smell Kineta in the air.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top