HVX200, PMW-EX1 or Small RED (model not confirmed)

L

LeeBrunet

Member
Hi,

I will eventually buy a HD camera to shoot shorts (mainly horror), documentaries, make contracts etc. I wanted to but a HVX200 in the next week, but I've been reading more about whats happening in the industry and Sony has announced a Full HD and Red will announce a same type of camera (Hopefully). This situation will help make prices drop. Also, I will add a 35mm adapter to my future buy. I've filmed alot in the past but I'm mainly a photographer and I have 3 Nikon lenses that I could mount on the camcorder. Hopefully DVXUSERS could help me out with this situation. What camera should I buy and with what adapter.

thanks
 
Since you came to the HVX site to ask your question most people here will tell you to go with the HVX200. It really depends on what you want to do with the camera and your skill level. It's a personal choice not one that should be determined or influenced by others.

If I'm not mistaken the Sony camera shoots a mere 35mbps as compared to 100mbps for the HVX. The DVCPROHD codec is far superior in my opinion and easier to edit. And anything from Red at this point other than its 4K camera is pure speculation.

A lot of people are producing great movies, documentaries and other video projects with the HVX. For the money you can not go wrong. Are there better cameras out there? Yes. But they are going to cost a heck of a lot more $.
Jim
 
The Sony EX is a very promising camera-- it promises you everything. We shall see what it delivers. The CMOS imaging chips are subject to debate. Note that it is not HDV, it is XDCAM HD which means that it is a higher data rate than HDV which should produce a cleaner signal. It is, however, a long GOP 4:2:0 format and it still means going through many of the gyrations necessary to edit long GOP. And I can guarantee you that my humble little HVX200 will give me a much cleaner green screen shot for keying than any 4:2:0 codec.

Baby Red sounds great but so far it is but a subtle hint in Ted's eyes. By the time it appears, you could have made enough money with your HVX to pay off the HVX and buy a baby Red. I know that's my plan.

The primary selling point to me of the HVX is the codec. The HVX then represents the best balance of price and quality.

I also confess a certain anti-Sony attitude because of their tactics at NAB and their proclamation of the death of P2. All of this, of course, while Sony and Panasonic jointly develop AVC.

I would personally buy the HVX if I had it to do over again. I do not own a 35mm adapter. All that I will say is that I recommend the Zacuto rail system for whatever adapter and accessories you add to the HVX.

Just my .02 since you seem to be requesting it.

And look on the bright side... the Canadian $ is doing so well against the US $ that your effective cost is lower now than it has been in years. Take advantage of our rotten US economy and buy soon!

Ned Soltz
 
Should I wait until the Sony comes out before buying the HVX? The prices might go down right? I think the Sony is coming out in the next month, I'm not quite sure...here in Canada. Also, the other problem I'm getting is that Panasonic has an extremely bad client support, warranty etc. Apparently it takes them around 6 weeks compare to Sony 3-4 days for any parts/warranty or repairs to be made.
 
prices ALWAYS go down to a degree over time. maybe tomorrow, maybe next month, maybe next year - i seriously doubt its going to drop by any dramatic degree any time soon.

if you can use it now get it now - IF you can really "afford" it. keep in mind, there isnt a ton of money in shorts and indie things right off the bat - unless youre heavilly networked. so if making your money back quickly is the goal - you might hold off.

the sony, even if it comes out tomorrow will need to be proven. and may or may not be any kind of significant contender compared to the hvx. for me, the big reason i went (and stay with) the hvx is the dvcprohd codec is a pleasure to work with.

the red - it will be early next year before you can actually BUY a red without months on a waiting list. so im not exactly holding my breath on the next version...

i did my homework on 35mm adapters and came down to either the sgpro or the brevis. i chose the brevis mainly because the wait on an sgpro was over a month and the brevis was immediately available - AND more importantly, it doesnt absolutely REQUIRE a rails setup. so it can be used a bit easier in a run and gun situation.

keep in mind that digital slr lenses arent going to give you the same performance that film lenses will. 35mm adapters are built for film lenses. there are some lenses like the nikon AFS series that seem to do double duty. and any lenses slower than say 2.8 - 4 (depending on lens type) arent going to provide optimum light to get a good image with an adapter.
 
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Hi,

I am having same dilemma over here...the new sony pmw-ex1 or pana hvx200...so let me just throw a couple of pro and cons for both cameras.

sony pro's
professional eng type of lense - much superior than hvx proper focus ring!! and aperture!
better and faster compact card system (express cards)...these are the future since they will be also much cheaper than pana p2 cards
cheap sony discs for arhciving the data
shutter angle adjustment
1/2 CMOS chip instead of pana's 1/3

sony con's
xd hdcam - probably not as bad as hdv but for graphic work needs to be rendered to something else while pana's hd dvcpro is an allround good codec

doesn't have the ability to record in sd mode - pana has dvcpro 50 and dv - which I like... because we still live in a dv world - of course time is changing but hasn't changed yet

4:2:0 sampling while pana has 4:2:2....of course you can use the sony's hdsdi output to record in 4:2:2 but I never felt good draging capture cards and disks around on the shooting - just too much drag

Concerning the issue of 35mm adapter I've chose sgpro over brevis....I loved what I've seen especially the stuff from the super talented macgregor and made my final decision based on his experience (we exchanged a couple of mails)....I think brevis is more suited for run and gun, but sgpro has better quality and nicer bokeh...since I don't mind having some extra weight on my shoulder I've choosen the sgpro and also ordered their new follow focus - both are due to be shipped in november

Hope it helps...if someone has to add something to the pro and con list please do so...

cckid
 
The HVX has adjustable shutter angles.

The Sony SxS cards aren't any cheaper per card, but since the codec requires less bandwidth, you can record more on the same capacity card compared to P2.
 
Why don't you wait until two all three cameras are available?

Honestly, asking anyone to give you an informed opinion when two of the cameras on your list aren't even released yet is ridiculous.
 
cckid said:
professional eng type of lense - much superior than hvx proper focus ring!!
Click to expand...
"much" superior? We'll have to see. The HVX has a proper manual zoom, and its focus is completely 100% repeatable. How much superior can the Sony's Fujinon be?
and aperture!
Click to expand...
Point there; the Sony does have an aperture ring.

better and faster compact card system (express cards)...
Click to expand...
Better? Why?

Faster? Not really. 640mbps vs. 800mbps, they're in the same neighborhood as far as speed. The P2 card is 80% of the speed of the SxS, not exactly a huge difference.

these are the future since they will be also much cheaper than pana p2 cards
Click to expand...
Says who? So far the Sony cards are more expensive than the Panasonics. And that whole concept of "you can use generic cards" turned out to be a red herring; the Sony uses Sony-proprietary SxS cards and that's it.

cheap sony discs for arhciving the data
Click to expand...
Again, how is this a bonus for one over the other? You can use those exact same discs to archive P2 data as well if you want.

shutter angle adjustment
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Panasonic does the exact same thing.

1/2 CMOS chip instead of pana's 1/3
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Not sure whether this is truly a bonus or not. CMOS in and of itself is potentially troublesome due to rolling shutter artifacts. Larger chip is better for slightly shallower DOF but it won't be a huge difference. And normally a larger chip makes a camera more light-sensitive but the CMOS chips are slower, so it'll probably net out about the same sensitivity. But I do expect a lot less noise on the Sony. And it'd better be noticeably sharper -- I mean, it has 4x as many pixels, so if it doesn't show a significant edge in sharpness then that's gonna be downright comical.

Biggest pro of the Panasonic, that you didn't list, is that the Sony costs 45% more than the Panasonic does, according to the prices listed at B&H.

The Sony also offers some other bonuses, including a sharper LCD panel (although not the flagrant lie posted in their brochure that claims 1920x480, it's actually 640x480) and variable frame rates in 1080 mode. You can get some variable frame rates in 1080 on the HVX but it's more work.

I think when you get down to it, the whole thing boils down to this: Sony's made a P2 MeToo, so they're basically directly comparable. If you pay the 45% higher price for the Sony you'll probably get sharper/crisper/less noisy video, and you'll also have the potential for rolling shutter artifacts. The card prices appear to be about the same; you can say that one is newer (but not really faster; again it's 640 vs 800) but then you could say the other one has 4 years of track record and is already heavily entrenched in the marketplace and at 300+ broadcast organizations worldwide, so... take your pick. If long-GOP space efficiency is important to you, your choice is easy. If intraframe compression and 4:2:2 are important to you, your choice is easy. If recording SD is important to you, your choice is easy.

There are tradeoffs in any decision. There are tradeoffs here too.
 
I shot the past two years with the Sony Z1. I have always liked Sony camcorders and cameras, I also owned a Sony DXC-327 dockable with a Beta SP back and a BVWD-600 back in the day. But in their low-end cameras, Sony lost me way before the advent of low end HD.

1. It is debatable as far as how good the Sony lens choices will be. The Leica lens on the HVX is excellent for a fixed lens. Sure detachable is nice but didn't Canon say something like less than 5% of XL-1 owners ever used anything but the stock lens? In the low end, low end users are too broke to buy or rent a variety of lenses. IMHO, for the most part, detachable lenses on the low end cameras are a red herring for most. Cool to have but hardly anyone uses multiple interchangable lenses.

2. Long GOP formats are a royal PITA to use. Have you ever dealt with HDV? It's a nightmare. I would think that the XDCAM would still kind of be the same?

3. There are several features that I loved about the Z1, namely it's excellent LCD screen, the fact that it has a VERY clean signal and the camera itself is basically a pretty good piece of gear reliability-wise.

But the bad Z1 drawbacks? Interlaced only, their CF mode was a joke. Not sure if Sony's 24P is up to par with Panasonics as I have not shot with the V1 but on the Z1, the CF mode was horrible. I am sure that this new crop of Sonys are better than the Z1 but...

Horrible ergonomics and menus. Their audio routing was one of the stupidest menu setups I have ever used. Their navigation was arcane.

I also own a DVX-100A. It has been my favorite camcorder I have ever owned, actually I have had better luck with it and made more money with it than I even made with my BVW Sony. After handling the HVX, I saw that it was basically an HD version of the DVX. I bought the HVX, have had it for three months. I also bought three 8GB cards and a 16GB card. Paid off the camera and cards in the first three shoots I used it on. What more can you ask for? The picture looks great. I actually feel like I am shooting "digital S16", I can get a very similar look to 16mm film. I don't mind the graininess and softness of the HVX picture, it's beautiful.

When I used to shoot with the Sony Z1 and other Sony digital cameras (low end), I always ended up either using filters, post production filters like the 55mm ones, etc. to soften the image anyway, it's nice to have a camera that can do it as I shoot, in a beautiful way.

I have never shot with the new Sony obviously but it is a me-too product, why not get the real deal? The DVCProHD codec is quite good and I have shot a TON of greenscreen with the HVX and it always looks great.

Just my .02 worth. I am sure that the Sony is a good camera, but to me, not worth the extra money and hassle of dealing with long GOP.

Best of luck,

Dan
 
Barry... lately you've been talking alot about the "rolling shutter artifacts" from CMOS sensors. Does someone have an example of what they look like? Why do they happen?
 
I've taken the effort to document it in an article, put together examples of my own as well as linked to others. I don't know when Jason will get it posted, but I imagine it won't be too long.
 
I'm going to try to start it tonight. Should have it up sometime tonight as well :) But, everytime I say something like that, I always jinx myself

Jason
 
puredrifting said:
2. Long GOP formats are a royal PITA to use. Have you ever dealt with HDV? It's a nightmare. I would think that the XDCAM would still kind of be the same?
Click to expand...

I have never dealt with HDV, but I am starting to cut XDcam-HD more and more and (at least in Vegas) it is a breeze. Just as fast as DV on the timeline.

But I agree with all you said.
 
Please keep posted or open new topic for the "rolling shutter artifacts" from CMOS sensors. I don't really get the idea? What is it? Does it look like posterization?
 
There will be a new article in a new topic. And it looks like nothing you've ever seen before, because it's a new issue due to the new CMOS technology.
 
Im sure the sony will be a good machine, but the charm of the HVX200, is this, forget the pixelcount, forget the lens, for get the "noise", forget the "softness". When you go to work, and your client says " I changed my mind, i want to shoot in SD, my editor cant handle HD right now, i can say, would you like DV? DVCpro? or DVCpro50?... after i explin the benefits, we usually go with DVCpro50. OR! sometimes i show up and the prodcuer says, i knwo we talked about shooting on DV, but is it possible to shoot in HD? Why yes sir... it is! 720p? 1080p? 1080i? 24p? 60p? 30p? Would you like nice slomo? how about timelapses?

It records AMAZING audio, on two fully controlable channels, I can practiaclly provide the final look in camera, in a sharp vivid image that is recorded in a PROFESSIONAL format, that is accepted somehow by practically every NLE, and post production workflow, AND its 4:2:2, just to be more awesome. Nothing else provides flexibilty like this. NOTHING. The only thing it doesnt do is PAL. and i kinda really wish it did.

The HVX200 is designed to be a professional tool, not a filmmakers toy. THAT is why i LOVE it.
 
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