Hey Panasonic, what are you waiting for?

Actually, I can't stand the thought of having to flip an image. I am in the midst of purchasing an adapter right now. I already own a Marshall monitor. The problem is, I shoot with a professional crew from LA. I use SAG actors. My crew works day jobs on shows like "The Office" and "Alias". I don't want to be caught dead flipping a monitor upside down.

Maybe it's an ego or image thing, but someone needs to step up to the plate and either flip the image in cam or use a flip adapter. I am leaning heavily towards a letus just because of the flip.

I don't know why people don't get that I don't want to flip the monitor or flip in in post. That to me is chicken ****. Just make it right the first time.

And mine is not really a budgetary constraint either. I am ordering a red, which is much more than this cam. I just want what I want.

As far as waiting, these adapter guys are usually small mom and pop outfits anyways. I tried calling cinevate last week four different times to discuss a flip and when it was going to be ready. No one answered the phone, and no, I don't want to leave a message.

Maybe I'm unreasonable. But I tell you what, within reason I would buy a flipping adapter, I don't care if it costs $3k, just give me a quality, flipping adapter that I don't even have to think about.
 
Marco, everyone agrees with you. We all want the flip. But we've been asking for it for two years now. Starting another thread isn't gonna make anything change. The best that can be accomplished is to put your request in the "HVX200a" thread; we have confirmation that top-level Panasonic officials are watching that thread. Whether we get the things we request or not, well, that remains to be seen. But we're doing what can be done.
 
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Actually, I can't stand the thought of having to flip an image... I don't want to be caught dead flipping a monitor upside down... Just make it right the first time.
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Adam/taormina, your post exactly echoes my thoughts. There's no way I'm gonna deal with the rinky-dink workflow of turning monitors upside down or trying to put a magnet on the LCD or flipping the image in post. That's specifically why I chose the L35FE. Even so, we have to recognize that there are micro-budget shooters who want to save money, so they build their own devices, I guess. But I simply can't fathom the economics of spending $1200 for an upside-down adapter, and then needing to spend another $200 to $1800 for a monitor, when you could have just got a $700 right-side-up adapter in the first place... :/

Soon, hopefully, there will be choices from other manufacturers too (Brevis and Redrock have both shown interest in providing flipping modules).

I personally think the whole upside-down thing is ridiculous, bordering on pathetic. The mini35 does the flip for you, and even the little $700 Letus does it for you. Why can't the $900-$1200 adapters do it? They should.

And yes, it'd be magnificent if the camcorder manufacturers would take this into account as well. They're starting to listen; Canon sort of went halfway there with their XLH1 LCD flip, but missed the boat because it requires you to remove the lens to activate that flip feature, and that rules out most all the inexpensive adapters. And Panasonic (on the HPX500) made an effort with their LCD flip, but that's still only halfway because you have to flip the recording.

The only way to do it "right" is to flip it at the internal processing stage. That way it displays properly, and records properly. I think the JVC HD200/HD250 do it the right way, don't they? That's what I'd like to see from all the manufacturers.

But, asking a behemoth corporation like Sony or Panasonic to make a change like this is far less likely to be successful, than asking a comparatively tiny outfit like Cinevate or Redrock. Small companies can respond quickly, big companies usually don't.

So:
We continue to clamor for the flip from all camcorder manufacturers, but while we wait, we can either:

1) use the upside-down adapters and muddle through the upside-down workflow compromises, or
2) use the right-side-up adapters.

Those are the choices that are available to us.
 
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The catch is that the Letus35 and P+S Technik both lose a ton of light. I get better results from using a Brevis35 and a flipped Marshall monitor. Capturing is a pain, though, because I have to manually rotate every clip I import and this also requires rendering which puts everything through a second step of compression.
 
Barry_Green said:
Adam/taormina, your post exactly echoes my thoughts. There's no way I'm gonna deal with the rinky-dink workflow of turning monitors upside down or trying to put a magnet on the LCD or flipping the image in post.
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I couldn't agree with both of you more - and that's exactly what's been keeping me from getting an adapter. And that's actually part of the problem as to why companies like Panasonic don't bother with these sorts of 'upgrades.'

It affects the third party companies, it doesn't really affect them.
What I mean is, I'm not buying an adapter because the camera won't flip the image - but it didn't stop me from buying the camera.

But, little by little, hopefully they'll come around.
As we've already seen - Sony announced interchangable lenses on a 1/3" camera - making it now the norm (JVC, CANON, SONY). Canon used to be the oddball of the bunch, now Panasonic is the oddball because they DON'T offer removable lenses in a compact 1/3" camera.

My guess is - with that market pressure - we'll eventually see an updated HVX with interchangeable lenses, and the ability to flip the image at the DSP for upside down recording. Well, maybe 'guess' is the wrong word...maybe 'hope' is a better word.

:)
 
marco0782 said:
The catch is that the Letus35 and P+S Technik both lose a ton of light. I get better results from using a Brevis35 and a flipped Marshall monitor. Capturing is a pain, though, because I have to manually rotate every clip I import and this also requires rendering which puts everything through a second step of compression.
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Thats my exact set up.

What edit system are you using? I use FCpro and don't have to render the flipped footage at all. I also can paste the settings for the flip to all of the clips at once. Most other systems can as well.
 
Yes I want to reiterate from my previous post - lets hope in future models the manufacturers WILL listen to us.


taormina said:
Maybe I'm unreasonable. But I tell you what, within reason I would buy a flipping adapter, I don't care if it costs $3k, just give me a quality, flipping adapter that I don't even have to think about.
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Amen to that. Right now we have the budget versions - no flip - the high end that are exe. Surely theres a market gap there?
 
"What edit system are you using? I use FCpro and don't have to render the flipped footage at all. I also can paste the settings for the flip to all of the clips at once. Most other systems can as well."

I have Final Cut 6. I use the Flop effect set to Both (Horizontal + Vertical). I can play without rendering but before export it seems to render. Am I mistaken? Also, can you clue me in on how to apply the effect to all the clips at once? Thanks!


Marco
 
Apply the effect you want to the first clip.
Then right click on it, and choose "COPY"

Then select all the other clips you want to add that same effect to, right click, and choose "PASTE ATTRIBUTES"

You'll get a dialog box with options - choose 'filters' (if you're using filters to Flop) and FCP will apply all filters to the selected clips.
 
It seems to me that by adding a lens adapter, you are essentially modifying your camera. I mean, you are modifying the camera so that it will do something that it was not originally indented to do in its design: accept different lenses. I don’t see that Panasonic has some responsibility to the consumer to support 3rd party modifications.

Not that this wouldn’t be a great feature, or that everyone wouldn’t love to see a feature update via firmware. Let’s make sure Panasonic hears that we want feature updates via firmware first. Then, if it is possible via a firmware update, maybe they’ll add this to the list of other great updates we’d like to see.
 
That's the problem with big corporations: You can't expect the same kind of user interaction and feeddback compared to smaller companies, like RED. I don't think we'll see any substancial upgrade trough firmware to our HVX that will improve its performance feature wise. Higher p2 cards compatibility is not an upgrade- its something that should've been integrated from the beginning.

Upgrades like "the flip"do not provide Panasonic any additional income that they can think of, and encourages people to use 3rd party products that can make their camera either produce sub par or exceling pictures. They can't "see"that adding these small features raise their profile on costumers, and provide basis for "brand loyalty". Very few will use the flip option, or purchase a 35mm adapter. But those that do will provide excelent feedback and word of mouth.

If Panasonic wants to market the HVX as the "Independent Filmmaker's best friend" (like it does now), it has to take into account the "guerrila aspect" of Independent film production- and respond accordingly.

RED is a very nice step in that direction. Every step of its evolution is user feedback based- and just look at the new integration of CF recording. Compared to proprietary P2 and Sony's express card format. Even though they are bringing out their own CF, RED allows the use of other CF cards. They will probably sell their CF cards in big volumes mostly due to Brand Loyalty by costumers that don't feel cheated to go into a specific proprietary format.

Not saying that Panasonic or Sony aren't opening up P2 or the Expresscard SxS cards to 3rd parties- I don't know the process- but there sure is lack of competition on the market...

In a different note, the appearance of the new HD-SDI protable recorder to CF Mpeg2 4:2:2 50mbs is a great, great development, opening up fantastic possibilities for XL, HPX and G-1 users...

The HVX is in time for a full overhaul. I believe NAB next year will be the time we see an upgrade. And not an HVX200a, but an HVX300, maybe.
 
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SPZ said:
In a different note, the appearance of the new HD-SDI protable recorder to CF Mpeg2 4:2:2 50mbs is a great, great development, opening up fantastic possibilities for XL, HPX and G-1 users...
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SPZ have you got a link to that?

EDIT: NM found the link. Looks pretty interesting and pricey. Looks well designed for some applications but for field recording would be very cumbersome.
 
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Sorry for treadjacking, but the Convergent Design Recorder costs 4995 Dollars. Now it might sound expensive, but it records Mpeg 2 160mbps Interframe (not Long GOP) 4:2:2 recordings.

This with a Canon XL-h1 equals 13 000 dollars for (theoretically) High Quality XDCAM recording in solid state, superior in compression to even the F350.

Or A SOny EX+ CF Recorder- Turns the initialy capable of only 35mbs Xdcam camera to a wooping 160 mbits 4:2:2 intraframe camera with native 1920x1080 chips!

How about an HPX + Lens + CF Recorder= 24 000 for... CF Recording? I presume the 160mbps 4:2:2 Mpeg2 to be superior to DVCPRO HD in therms of output (since mpeg2 is much more efficient than Mpeg1, from which dvcpro HD is based)

Or a RED with HD-SDI out? Could RED output a signal to this recorder and we use it for realtime 1080p capturing?

Brilliant. The possibilities are endless!
 
Surely it would be trivil for Panny to add this?

Indy... In Guatemala travelling to Peru overland with his HVX!
 
Just a few notes on the thread. Cinevate has had a flip solution in development for close to a year now. Because of issues identified with less expensive solutions, we abandoned them early on for a solution that would be extremely robust, free of contamination (even with extensive field use), aberration-free, be light efficient, and guarantee perfect optical axis alignment. Ever since Paul Nordin strapped a full adapter rig to the outside of a truck bouncing across the Mexican desert, we've had a new appreciation for the field requirements of an adapter. This is a tall order, and required the creation of optics (like our 72mm achromat) that simply don't/didn't exist in the market. I personally shoot in the field with our products and listen very carefully to our clients. This is why we took our time to get it right.

On the subject of firmware flips, if you have a chance to visit Canon's pro tour in Canada right now (Vancouver and Toronto are the next sites), you'll see a "Cinevatized" XH-G1. You may be surprised with what you hear from them on the subject of flip feasability in firmware :-)
 
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