MUSIC VIDEO for GEFFEN RECORDS - "Love is Wicked"

[senne]

This is a commercial project, for promoting a song for a large record company, to sell records. Meaning, there's no way I can ask anyone to work on it for free. Granted we asked favors, because if this were budgeted at full rates, it would be three times the budget. ie) Hair stylist usually works for 1500/day. Choreographer at 3k / day. Makeup 1500/day. We go them for ..... anyway, here are some of the costs that may not be apparent to the unitiated:
- Director, DP, Hair, Lead Dancer, Choreographer, Stylist, Fees, airline tickets/hotel
- Customs broker, import duties and work permits
- Wardrobe
- Producer, Location Manager's Fees
- Crew Fees: 3 grips and 3 electrics, AC, PA's, AD, Drivers
- Location Fee/Permits (with Kingston's "informal" government)
- Protection money:We're not in Kansas....
- Dancers/Extras
- Meals for a 30 plus crew.
- Main location was covered with trash and goat shi* - someone had to clean it
- Casting Director, on short notice you need someone to get you bodies fast
- Camera and Lighting Gear
- Art Director: Those barrels of fire didn't come with the location, string lights, etc
- Crowd Control: Outside of frame are hundreds of people that need to kept out of frame.
- Post Production: A good editor isn't cheap. Beauty work (clearing up bad skin) is a painstaking process. Color correction on DS isn't cheap. In short, if it goes to broadcast, DVC PRO HD color correction in FCP doesn't cut it. Too noisy.

Anyway, I hope this gives you an idea that we did almost "give it away". You can only do favors so many times until you run out of favors to ask and have to pay bills. Also, keep in mind, when you do something like our video, you're contractually obligated to deliver the specs on your treatment. The deadline's are tight. Miss a deadline, you can be in breach. Money pushes work through and gets things done on time. Unlike a personal or non-professional project where the deadlines are vague, you can hunt around, and wait for someone to do something for free. This was not the case.


On my site there's a spec for Epinion shot on 35mm, art direction, makeup, etc. It cost me 5 grand. Looks more "pro" than most everything on my reel. Everything but the stock, processing, transfer and edit were donated to me as a favor to push my career. My "real world" budget assessed it at about 100k and that's a conservative estimate. My thesis in grad school ran 15k. If I paid people it would've run 50k. Can't pull this off again. Favors are rarely for free.

Thanks a lot for explaining. I guess that is mostly time-pressure and security that made this more expensive then one should think.

I liked the other ones to

s

 

[Tim Naylor]

Regarding those key rates. We never paid close to those rates. I stated their standard rate ie) 1500 for makeup, etc.. Then I alluded to what we got them for.....(considerably less), but for obvious reasons, can't publish the number (a lot less than their commercial rate). They got to make a living. Also,you can't judge an edit unless you've seen the dailies nor can you judge makeup unless you've seen the raw face. Let me add, any pro who's done beauty work will tell you if there's a reason why certain makeup artists make more than DP's. And it's not the size of their tools.

If you know anything about dance, crumping and crip walks LA style, don't cut it in a dancehall video. Trust me, you can't find Jamaican dance in LA. I've tried. Their last video was produced in LA and it shows. They looked like cookie cutter American pop acts. And you're not going to get the same vibe in LA. Straight up. Black Angelinos are as different from Jamaicans as Croatians are from Irish. You know Cossack dancing vs Riverdance thing.

Anyway, I do hope you get the chance to work with 25 grand on a tight deadline, in a 3rd world country with a crime and corruption rate beyond anything City of God could impress upon you or anything you've ever seen. You'll soon realize it's chump change and will be begging for mommie.

Give me your subjective opinion the next time you have to shoot in a war zone (the garrison has a higher kill rate than iraq). LA is disneyland compared to this. But we shoot there because, if you up on dance and dancehall, Jamaica delivers. Only Toronto compares dancewise (lot of west Indians) but they don't have the jungles or the dress.

re: Pure Drifting

Dan, where can I see your work? Gotta an overseas in 6 mo. Love to see your reel. Sounds like you've been there.

Tim Naylor - Dir-DP

 

[Tim Naylor]

Thanks a lot for explaining. I guess that is mostly time-pressure and security that made this more expensive then one should think.

I liked the other ones to

s

Time pressure and security aside, you still have to pay to get things done right. Labor is cheaper in Jamaica (about 30 percent). You could also ask friends for favors every month. The problem with that is that you need new friends every month. When you have to deliver on time, to the specs of your treatment (it's legally binding), meet basic broadcasting standards and make enough money to have a life, you'll realize we should have done this on 75k. If you really want to know where money goes, look at a budget, line by line, until you know what every line does.

I just worked as a union electric on a commercial to pay some quick bills. You might think I got overpaid on paper. But when my knuckles were sore enough for pain killers and we positioned lights and ran power that no independent passionate amatuer could do at an efficiency rate, non-union could only dream about, you'd say we should've earned double our rates.

 

[Tim Naylor]

Fair enough... my OPINION still stands... but no matter... props for getting it done...

"My OPINION still stands". What does that mean? Is it a get out of jail card? Does your decree makes it so? Have you been ordained, appointed and annointed. You can do better than that. After all, your cost analysis deduced their was much "wasted crew". Surely you can back opinion with experience and facts. "My opinon stands". Let it sink in - on it's own. Damn, even God has never ventured to be so bold.

 

[Brandon Rice]

Tim... All I am saying is... for the budget (25K) I expected much much more... honestly, if I didn't know how much it cost, I would have just watched and thought it was pretty good, but when you throw the budget out there, then I have certain expectations.

 

[Brandon Rice]

On my site there's a spec for Epinion shot on 35mm, art direction, makeup, etc. It cost me 5 grand. Looks more "pro" than most everything on my reel. Everything but the stock, processing, transfer and edit were donated to me as a favor to push my career. My "real world" budget assessed it at about 100k and that's a conservative estimate. My thesis in grad school ran 15k. If I paid people it would've run 50k. Can't pull this off again. Favors are rarely for free.

What?! rogar-Shock(DBG):

I just took a look at this on your site... and first of all... it was slow, and secondly... 100 GRAND!???? You REALLY think this would have cost you 100 GRAND to do, with paying everyone???? LOL!

I get spending money on film stock, but how much do you seriously use on a spec with 14 shots???? I am seriously in shock...

The makeup effects were great and all, but I could get a makeup artist to do that for $500.

Anyway... wow... lol :grin:

 

[g0ldenb0y55]

I must agree with Brandon on this one! A conservative 100K estimate for that project seems a little over the top based on the completed spec that I viewed on your sight.

Just my opinion.

 

[cinebuddy]

Tim:

Also, you get the trophy for no unecessary slow motion shots. Seems like every R&B and Hip Hop video shot these days has half the video at 120 fps for no reason at all, other than to stretch the time so they didn't have to shoot more setups/locations.

Whoa Dan! Wait a minute! Didn't you see the Chapelle show?! Everything is better and cooler in Slow Motion.

 

[Barry_Green]

Brandon... in the real world of professional production people, things cost a lot of money. According to the AICP, the *average* cost for a car commercial a few years ago was $330,000.00. That's for a Nissan or Honda commercial, not some local used-car dealer.

Do you think those people are "stupid" or "don't know what they're doing"? Au contraire, these are the best production companies in the world, working for the best agencies in the world, working for the biggest and best clients in the world. And that's what it ends up costing, and that's the way it should be.

Commercial DPs get $2500 to $10,000 per day. Commercial directors can do even better. Real equipment costs money -- there's a massive difference between a Stickypod and a professional car mount, a huge difference between a Techno Crane and a Kessler, and it's a difference that makes a difference in the final product. Travel costs money, a preposterous amount of it. Crew costs money. Sets cost money -- a lot of it. On our Command & Conquer: Tiberian Sun project, the Montauk and Kodiak sets cost, IIRC, about $40,000 each. And that was a decade ago!

And people do like to get paid for what they do. Producers and production personnel. Preproduction costs money -- in the professional production world, people get paid for their preproduction days as well as the actual production days.

Video is expensive because good video is very effective marketing and sales tool. When McDonald's or Burger King pays $2,000,000.00 just to *air* a spot one time at the Super Bowl, do you really think they want to throw together that spot for $5,000? They want the best writers, the best crew, the best director, the best everything. They have to guarantee their results by hiring the best.

I think all you're really trying to say is "I could have done that for less." Maybe, maybe not. But even if you could, why should you? Why not be rewarded for your skill, talent, and hard work -- rather than slaving for pennies and driving down the overall value of the professional video production community?

 

[Tim Naylor]

Brandon,
I should clarify. It cost me very little - actually most likely closer to 3k than 5k. The 100k is a number that many a commercial agency would've spent. If the can spend more for a typical "office" spot with flat light, 100k is not a stretch. That's when the corporate layers get deep. Instead of a ninelight, they would use an 18k or two, instead of house power it would be a Genny truck (with Teamster and every vehicle down to crew van would have a teamster or two), instead of one admin, it would be five deep, instead of 2 and 2 it would be 4 and 4 at full union rates, instead of 3 takes, they'd do 30 (until the client is happy), instead of one monitor there'd be at least three. And so on. Now I'm cofident most anyone on this site could produce it for much less, I was just plugging in numbers into a typical commercial spreadsheet, replicating the numbers of people, gear, etc a typical spot of this scale would use based on my experience as a technician on commercials.

There's no denying the waste here. But if it's for a company making gazillions off a product the budget can never be too big, especially if you get 8-10 percent of it. I've no problem with a whole village making a living off a few spots. And regarding makeup, you could get someone for 500 or less. But if it's for a large corporation - why? Typically, your top commercial makeup artists start at 1500 and up. EFX makeup even more.

Also, in post. An agency may have you do two or three onlines because someone at international doesn't have a properly calibrated TV in Belgium (happened recently). In short, they over budget for everything.

The company my partner and I recently signed with has been educational. I've had to re adjust my thinking. I came from the self produced by the bootstraps school where I always made a dollar out of 15 cents (much like yourself). And I'll still do that when I direct my first feature. Now when I write a treatment for a large label, I get a budget back that's often double what I was expecting. I know I could do it for less on my own but the guarantee of using the best you can find gets weaker also my paycheck (a percentage of the budget) gets smaller. When it's for a large corp making untold amounts off your efforts, I say, take what you can.

I see some real fine work here (ie Endeavor video), and I hope once folks get their "break out" piece to avoid as much as possible under selling yourself.

My Nickels Worth

 

[Brandon Rice]

There's no denying the waste here. But if it's for a company making gazillions off a product the budget can never be too big, especially if you get 8-10 percent of it. I've no problem with a whole village making a living off a few spots. And regarding makeup, you could get someone for 500 or less. But if it's for a large corporation - why? Typically, your top commercial makeup artists start at 1500 and up. EFX makeup even more.

Fair enough, I completely understand and get your point...

Think if big companies actually thought more carefully about their budgets... I am sure they could get the same quality for less, but alas, they have the money, and do not care, which is a good problem to have I guess rogar-BigGrin(DBG)

 

[Tim Naylor]

Sometimes the worse reputation you can have is being the guy known for 30k videos/spots that look like a 100k. They'll never spend a 100k on you.

 

[Brandon Rice]

Yea, sometimes making something great for less becomes the worst thing for you.

 

[g0ldenb0y55]

Sometimes the worse reputation you can have is being the guy known for 30k videos/spots that look like a 100k. They'll never spend a 100k on you.

Well said! There's your common ground. :laugh:

Now let's all have beverage!:beer:

 

[Barry_Green]

Maybe... but I am also saying that it seems as though HOPEFULLY as time goes on, people (companies included) will realize they don't have to spend 1/4 million dollars for a commercial, but instead spend less, hire less crew (same pay rate) and still get a bangin' product.

Why? Why is this a good thing for video producers, or anyone else?

Let's say you could work one of two ways to produce the same thing. In scenario A, you approach it the existing professional way: you draw up a conventional budget, hire a great storyboard artist, produce your concept drawings, hire a fantastic line producer to budget the project, you pitch it to the agency, they agree, you then hire professional crew and professional actors and have professional sets manufactured and you have a professional caterer and professional craft services, and you work 8-hour or 10-hour days where everyone works at a comfortable level, nobody's over-stressing, and everyone's getting paid well for a job well done. Then the project is taken to a professional post house where it undergoes professional grading on top-quality gear, professional audio sweetening, graphics creation, editing, everything. It's mastered to a final professional mastering format and ready for air. And everyone who worked on it makes a good living for a solid day's work; the cheapest person on the crew gets $300/day and the front-line guys like the director and DP get maybe $2500 to $5000/day.

Or, there's scenario B: you pitch a lowball pitch to a client and they say "great, I can take ruthless advantage of this kid and only spend $2,000 for my video." So you get that miniscule penny-filled budget and you use your DV camcorder and you con some of your friends into acting in it and you scramble around to find locations you can use for free, and you work like an absolute slave and you spend 14 hours per day running around like a chicken with your head cut off, trying to do six jobs all by yourself because you can't afford to hire a production manager or a director of photography or a gaffer or a sound person, and you wear yourself out rushing this production together and getting what you can. And then you stay up endless nights hulking over your Adobe Premiere system, trying to do all the graphics and all the sound effects yourself, rushing madly against a deadline that you can't possibly meet but hey, the client demands it... but in the end, you produce a fantastic-looking piece that rivals the big-budget one.

So you worked 20x as hard, got 1/100th as much money for it, and put a whole lot of people out of work in order for you to work much harder, just so you could be drastically underpaid.

Can you please explain WHY this is a good thing, and why you look forward to scenario B as a positive? It's a recipe for disaster, is what it is. In scenario A, everyone wins. In scenario B, only the company wins; everyone else loses.

 

[Brandon Rice]

Barry, I believe there's a balance between your two scenarios.

Yes, hire pro's and get it done professionally. But so often I see unnecessary crew members... you don't need three makeup assistants, or 6 grips, etc. I'm saying, yes, do it pro, and get paid for your work, but also be smart.

 

[Barry_Green]

Let me try it again: you say that "HOPEFULLY" (in all caps) you want to see budgets go down and fewer people hired. So how, in your viewpoint, is this a hopeful thing? Who wins in that scenario?

It's very much like a mom and pop craft store saying "HOPEFULLY Wal-Mart will come to town and sell the same thing we do for a lot less."

Or "HOPEFULLY our boss will soon realize that he can outsource our jobs to India for 25 cents an hour."

I cannot imagine why you think this is a good thing. Unless you're thinking that you're not able to compete with the "big boys" or something? If that's the case, up your skill level, up your negotiating skills, and go compete. But please don't think it's a good thing to put dozens or hundreds of good, hard-working craftspeople out of work.

 

[Brandon Rice]

And after ALL OF THAT... getting all of the information from Tim... I believe he did a good job hiring the right amount of crew and producing this... he had a tough situation to work with, and made it happen... We don't live in a perfect world, and we can't always get to shoot where we want and when we want... sometimes (as in this case) we have to work on the fly, no matter what the cost... So I take back what I said initially, but my philosophy still stands.

 

[David Jimerson]

Brandon . . .

This is a little bit like wondering why Smith & Wollenksy hire executive chefs, maitre des, buy china and crystal, etc., when Ponderosa will still give you a steak with teenagers, a cashier, and plastic plates and cups for a lot less.

 

[Brandon Rice]

I don't see it as the same at all... I think the analogy breaks down... because I'm not saying, sacrifice any quality, I'm saying, pick your spots to hire people, and don't just hire for the sake of hiring.

Don't hire people because "That's how it's done"

Hire them because "I need that person"