Is the V1 a has been already?
- Thread starter Ronbo
- Start date
David@Leo's Camera
Leos Camera Canada
If you wouldn't do that in the real world then why does it matter?
Not being sarcastic - just curious.
Not being sarcastic - just curious.
Oynk
Well-known member
That would be great! Thanks for suggesting it. I might add that post-production mini-workflow would be helpful too.
I can't wait to see this, though my money is on the A1.
No problem. As I said its an experiment that only serves to highlight the issue I had and what you find in the image with darks. THe issue is that it isnt confined to just black. When I first saw these blocks they were in dark greens, a search around at the time revealed more users with similar issues (feel free to search).
Finally these were my findings and I found them unsatisfactory.
I just want to say also that I havee no kind of hidden agenda here. As already mentioned it's what I found to be unsatisfactory - do with that what you will. My point is only to provide the info I have for others to see.
Heres an un cc'd shot from A1. You will see that the black levels are similar - check them in your scope to verify on the original. But the mids up shot reveals no blocking - just detail in the image - now thats information you can take to the bank.
Original
Mids up
Oynk
Well-known member
Now, that is helpful and very clear. Thanks so much.
The case is building for the A1.
Thanks!
Thank you for this excellent feedback ncje. You and I discussed the V1 macroblocking issue in another thread, but the example you provide here is a very clear illustration of the problem.
Let me just ask you a question: Do you have any experience with the HV20, and are you aware of any macroblocking with it?
I know this is not an HV20 thread but I think it would be interesting to see how this camera resolves dark picture areas.
moldcad
Veteran
I must strongly oppose this kind of comparisons as unfair. I personally have no blockiness problems with my V1E. As I mentioned before in this thread, I returned the A1 to buy the Sony and am very happy with my decision. The V1 is truly a pro machine (with 2 years Prime Support from Sony Broadcast here in Europe). The image it produces is simply better (in terms of colour fidelity and richness, as well as sharpness and resolution), than that from the A1 - even after heavy tweaking that the XH series indeed do offer. The ergonomics is also better - with lighter and smaller form factor, better implemented peaking and histogram, great autofocus with AF assist - you name it. Last but not least - better build quality. After the six weeks of using the A1, its handle flap fell off, and the mode dial started jamming!
The application spectrum of the V1 is also much broader - from almost "handycam" style hand-held, run&gun shooting, to 1920x1080 progressive, 4:2:2 uncompressed via HDMI in full-blown, studio set-ups. The latter does away with any HDV compression problems completely, and there are some with the A1, as well!
The application spectrum of the V1 is also much broader - from almost "handycam" style hand-held, run&gun shooting, to 1920x1080 progressive, 4:2:2 uncompressed via HDMI in full-blown, studio set-ups. The latter does away with any HDV compression problems completely, and there are some with the A1, as well!
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moldcad, you have your opinion and fair enough. There were many things I like about the V1 also. The V1 was a much simpler unit to handle and I felt without any knowledge gave a better picture, for example a wedding videographer may prefer it more because of its versatility. Point and shoot - great shots all day for DVD. I would hate to do a great deal off cc on that image though.
The A1 can aslo be tethered in a studio offering uncompressed 4:2:2.
As I said I have no agenda and these were my findings with my methods - but seriously how can you say it's unfair when I am only presenting the images that I got from the camera? It's not as though I messed with it or anything.
And the images were shot with optimum performance - using settings tried and true and recommended by v1 users.
The A1 can aslo be tethered in a studio offering uncompressed 4:2:2.
As I said I have no agenda and these were my findings with my methods - but seriously how can you say it's unfair when I am only presenting the images that I got from the camera? It's not as though I messed with it or anything.
And the images were shot with optimum performance - using settings tried and true and recommended by v1 users.
Just Got a V1U and have issues
Just Got a V1U and have issues
I'm a professional cinematographer/producer with over 20 major feature docs/television series credits to my name. I say that just to illustrate that I have a trained eye. I'm working with a company that just purchased the V1U for an industrial that I am shooting/directing. They also intend to use this camera for a very well funded 2 hour feature doc. I got a hold of the camera to play around and test a few days before our first shoot on the industrial. I hooked it up via component to my Panasonic EDTV 37" plasma monitor at home. I immediately noticed that even at zero gain and with the light in my living room turned all the way up (since it dims) there was a inordinate amount of noise and that (as I was already aware) the camera performed poorly in terms of low light exposure. I shot some test in a variety of locations (outside, used some of my Diva lights to light up the room, etc...) The camera performed well outdoors and the noise was less noticeable, however it was still there. I then digitized the footage with the appropriate work around to extract true 24p in Final Cut (btw, I was shooting in 24p mode). I applied a minor 3-way color correct using final cut's native 3-way color corrector. The image that was shot in my living room without the kino lights at no gain and 48 shutter had virtually no latitude from what I could tell. The noise increased and compression artifacting became apparent with only the slightest level correction. I also noticed the aliased stair stepping on thin lines- the sort I haven't had to deal with since the days I used a PD150 (I swapped that camera out for a DVX100a). I wasn't totally sure if the stair stepping was being recorded or was just visible on the standard definition monitor due to the down convert. Regardless of all these concerns the company was insistent on my using the V1U and so we have proceeded with 2 extremely crucial and expensive shoot days on this industrial. We used a dolly and glidecam steady rig for a lot of the shoot and I did hand held for some. Most of the shoot I kept the steady shot on the hard setting. I did turn it off for a few of the long lens tripod shots. When we got back to the post facility and began digitizing the tapes we noticed that on some of the telephoto shots at 20x (in practical/fluorescent /daylight lit room) had this very strange heatwave effect. As if there was jet engine exhaust in the room. I did some test with the steady shot at full telephoto tripod on and off and the effect is still there. Most likely a defect in the camera and is being sent back to Sony for evaluation. Nevertheless, my first encounter with this camera is that regardless of it's price point it has some sub par areas that need serious consideration before purchase. I must say also that I am very skeptical of those supposed 35mm blow up tests that claim the footage looks great. I had an HBO doc that I shot on the pd150 blown up to 35mm and screened at Sundance several years ago. I was ultimately disappointed with the results, and thats after many test prints were made that I oversaw at Heavy Light in NYC. I see some of the same warning signs in this footage as I saw back then. It's hard to imagine the noise and stair stepping not becoming much more apparent as it gets blow up. Even for normal broadcast in my opinion the noise is at an unpleasant level. I know it's tough to be critical when you're using consumer/prosumer gear however, I'm hopeful that with solid state and red a true option just around the corner this will be the last time I have to deal with HDV.
m
Just Got a V1U and have issues
I'm a professional cinematographer/producer with over 20 major feature docs/television series credits to my name. I say that just to illustrate that I have a trained eye. I'm working with a company that just purchased the V1U for an industrial that I am shooting/directing. They also intend to use this camera for a very well funded 2 hour feature doc. I got a hold of the camera to play around and test a few days before our first shoot on the industrial. I hooked it up via component to my Panasonic EDTV 37" plasma monitor at home. I immediately noticed that even at zero gain and with the light in my living room turned all the way up (since it dims) there was a inordinate amount of noise and that (as I was already aware) the camera performed poorly in terms of low light exposure. I shot some test in a variety of locations (outside, used some of my Diva lights to light up the room, etc...) The camera performed well outdoors and the noise was less noticeable, however it was still there. I then digitized the footage with the appropriate work around to extract true 24p in Final Cut (btw, I was shooting in 24p mode). I applied a minor 3-way color correct using final cut's native 3-way color corrector. The image that was shot in my living room without the kino lights at no gain and 48 shutter had virtually no latitude from what I could tell. The noise increased and compression artifacting became apparent with only the slightest level correction. I also noticed the aliased stair stepping on thin lines- the sort I haven't had to deal with since the days I used a PD150 (I swapped that camera out for a DVX100a). I wasn't totally sure if the stair stepping was being recorded or was just visible on the standard definition monitor due to the down convert. Regardless of all these concerns the company was insistent on my using the V1U and so we have proceeded with 2 extremely crucial and expensive shoot days on this industrial. We used a dolly and glidecam steady rig for a lot of the shoot and I did hand held for some. Most of the shoot I kept the steady shot on the hard setting. I did turn it off for a few of the long lens tripod shots. When we got back to the post facility and began digitizing the tapes we noticed that on some of the telephoto shots at 20x (in practical/fluorescent /daylight lit room) had this very strange heatwave effect. As if there was jet engine exhaust in the room. I did some test with the steady shot at full telephoto tripod on and off and the effect is still there. Most likely a defect in the camera and is being sent back to Sony for evaluation. Nevertheless, my first encounter with this camera is that regardless of it's price point it has some sub par areas that need serious consideration before purchase. I must say also that I am very skeptical of those supposed 35mm blow up tests that claim the footage looks great. I had an HBO doc that I shot on the pd150 blown up to 35mm and screened at Sundance several years ago. I was ultimately disappointed with the results, and thats after many test prints were made that I oversaw at Heavy Light in NYC. I see some of the same warning signs in this footage as I saw back then. It's hard to imagine the noise and stair stepping not becoming much more apparent as it gets blow up. Even for normal broadcast in my opinion the noise is at an unpleasant level. I know it's tough to be critical when you're using consumer/prosumer gear however, I'm hopeful that with solid state and red a true option just around the corner this will be the last time I have to deal with HDV.
m
moldcad
Veteran
Of course ncje - both you and me have the right to have different opinions, and express them. My point has been that you have pointed out a possible flaw in the V1's HDV encoder (or its "inferiority" when compared to that of the Canon); even if this is actually true, it doesn't outweight the many advantages of the Sony IMHO. Believe me, I'm a control-freak and I was extatic about the vast amount of picture tweaking parameters the A1 offers; but after a couple of weeks I realized that - while they are a toy on its own right - they are not going to provide the rich, vibrant, almost 3D look of the V1's picture, so why bother? If I want to play with cc, it's better to do it in post anyway.
All that I'm saying doesn't mean the Canon A1 is not a marvellous camera - on the contrary; if I didn't think the V1 better suits my needs, I'd certainly keep the Canon!
PS. My $0.2 on the amount of internet talk about the V1 vs the A1: somebody said the A1 owners talk about shooting, while the V1 owners actuallly shoot. I agree with that; Sony (a bit like Microsoft) is not very much loved by users, because they are huge companies making fortune on us. Yet after all, we do buy and use their products because they are de facto industry standard per se.
All that I'm saying doesn't mean the Canon A1 is not a marvellous camera - on the contrary; if I didn't think the V1 better suits my needs, I'd certainly keep the Canon!
PS. My $0.2 on the amount of internet talk about the V1 vs the A1: somebody said the A1 owners talk about shooting, while the V1 owners actuallly shoot. I agree with that; Sony (a bit like Microsoft) is not very much loved by users, because they are huge companies making fortune on us. Yet after all, we do buy and use their products because they are de facto industry standard per se.
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Ronbo
Active member
Hey check out the slow mo feature on the V1. I shot this at a 4th of July event.
http://www.youtube.com/videodojo
http://www.youtube.com/videodojo
That is pretty good. Too bad youtube is the only useable outlet for that feature.
I've worked on 5 music videos using the V1U and all of them, despite my (and, on 2 of them, a professional gaffer's) best efforts, every single shot came out dark. Many came out not just dark, but blocky as well, and it crumbled even further under web compression.
This may not be a fair comparison, but I also brought my HVX-200 along on one of the shoots. The director favored his V1U, so we didn't use it for the shoots, but occasionally when we had time, I would pull out the HVX and pop off a couple of shots. Where the V1U came out dark, blocky and muddy, the HVX was just barely underexposed - every shot was usable and would have worked just fine.
We were in a controlled environment with Omnis, Totas, a 1K Arri and some 650s and no matter how much light we threw at the shots (even enough to pop some circuit breakers), we could not get that V1U to pull a proper exposure.
Also, talking about pulling 4:2:2 from the studio tether, why is this even an argument in favour of the camera? All of them can do that in one form or another and if you start depending on a tether to get your shot, you really should have just bought a better camera.
This may not be a fair comparison, but I also brought my HVX-200 along on one of the shoots. The director favored his V1U, so we didn't use it for the shoots, but occasionally when we had time, I would pull out the HVX and pop off a couple of shots. Where the V1U came out dark, blocky and muddy, the HVX was just barely underexposed - every shot was usable and would have worked just fine.
We were in a controlled environment with Omnis, Totas, a 1K Arri and some 650s and no matter how much light we threw at the shots (even enough to pop some circuit breakers), we could not get that V1U to pull a proper exposure.
Also, talking about pulling 4:2:2 from the studio tether, why is this even an argument in favour of the camera? All of them can do that in one form or another and if you start depending on a tether to get your shot, you really should have just bought a better camera.
moldcad
Veteran
LOL:happy:
You honestly cant see it?
I opened your image in photoshop zoomed in 500% and took a grab of a small portion to highlight - I can see it everywhere in your original grab, in fact the image only serves to hightlight the problem.
Heres the cut. This is taken from the right of her bow. It's first place I could easily see it in original. The very small blocks Id say are from the jpeg compression - its the larger squares Im talking about.
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