Super vs. Hyper?
- Thread starter JimiK
- Start date
I'll add some technical rambling on pickup patterns for s&g... (more for myself to refresh in my head but maybe it will be news for some)
I always understood polar patterns in this way:
A mic capsule is inherently omni directional. Microphone output is made to be directional by the addition of vents cut into the body of the mic that allow air pressure (sound waves) to hit the rear of the diaphragm, which cancels out a significant amount of sound from certain directions (the side and rear). Cardioid, hyper cardioid, and shotgun mic designs are all variations on the same design. I have always thought of a cardioid as a broad directional, a hyper as having a narrower more focused pickup pattern, and a shotgun as having a very exaggerated directional effect because of the added interference tube, the reason why they're so f'n long). Hyper cardoid and super cardioid were always exchangeable terms in my mind. If that's not the case then the difference seems pretty ambiguous to me. Technically the word shotgun and super cardioid may refer to the same mic design but I perfer to just think shotgun and never confuse the two. There are also figure 8 pattern mics which use two capsules in one mic body with vents cut to make each mic directional in the opposite direction. These are pretty useless for film work. Ribbon mics are naturally figure 8 pattern if I remember right. You see these on talk shows like Larry King because they're perfect for two person interviews. Also in the music studio these have their use. But for film and video you might as well forget they exist.
All the professional sound mixers I have worked with always use a hyper cardioid mic for indoor scenes or for interior car work. Planting shcoeps or whatnot. Shotguns are just a bad choice for interiors because there isn't enough space to get the sound they were designed to pickup. Also if you jam a shotgun too close to a speaking person indoors you will defeat the design of the interference tube because the sound source is so close that a lot of the sound pressure gets picked up from the sides causing pretty awful coloration. Also a cardioid (or hyper) does a better job of capturing the resonance of a room where a shotgun will reject most reflections and give you an unnatural (to that particular space) sound.
A side note: All lavaliere mics (to my knowledge) are naturally omni directional. The first couple times I used wires I would try to meticulously aim the capsule side of the lav (trams) towards the mouth... total waste of time. Not to mention some actors hate being wired so wasting time is not something you want to do.
If I'm off on anything here please feel free to correct it. Hope this is helpful for someone, sorry if it's a no-brainer.
I always understood polar patterns in this way:
A mic capsule is inherently omni directional. Microphone output is made to be directional by the addition of vents cut into the body of the mic that allow air pressure (sound waves) to hit the rear of the diaphragm, which cancels out a significant amount of sound from certain directions (the side and rear). Cardioid, hyper cardioid, and shotgun mic designs are all variations on the same design. I have always thought of a cardioid as a broad directional, a hyper as having a narrower more focused pickup pattern, and a shotgun as having a very exaggerated directional effect because of the added interference tube, the reason why they're so f'n long). Hyper cardoid and super cardioid were always exchangeable terms in my mind. If that's not the case then the difference seems pretty ambiguous to me. Technically the word shotgun and super cardioid may refer to the same mic design but I perfer to just think shotgun and never confuse the two. There are also figure 8 pattern mics which use two capsules in one mic body with vents cut to make each mic directional in the opposite direction. These are pretty useless for film work. Ribbon mics are naturally figure 8 pattern if I remember right. You see these on talk shows like Larry King because they're perfect for two person interviews. Also in the music studio these have their use. But for film and video you might as well forget they exist.
All the professional sound mixers I have worked with always use a hyper cardioid mic for indoor scenes or for interior car work. Planting shcoeps or whatnot. Shotguns are just a bad choice for interiors because there isn't enough space to get the sound they were designed to pickup. Also if you jam a shotgun too close to a speaking person indoors you will defeat the design of the interference tube because the sound source is so close that a lot of the sound pressure gets picked up from the sides causing pretty awful coloration. Also a cardioid (or hyper) does a better job of capturing the resonance of a room where a shotgun will reject most reflections and give you an unnatural (to that particular space) sound.
A side note: All lavaliere mics (to my knowledge) are naturally omni directional. The first couple times I used wires I would try to meticulously aim the capsule side of the lav (trams) towards the mouth... total waste of time. Not to mention some actors hate being wired so wasting time is not something you want to do.
If I'm off on anything here please feel free to correct it. Hope this is helpful for someone, sorry if it's a no-brainer.
timapter
Veteran
if you read my read earlier post, ive explained the difference between super and hyper - there IS a difference, they are not interchangeable terms. shotgun and super cardioid are also different - it the addition of an interference tube to a super card mic that takes us to shotgun territory.
a Schoeps mk41 is a SUPER cardioid.
Oleg - average interview height, 1 to 2 feet depending on shot, less if i can. I just want a mic with a nice hot, low noise output and if either the akg or mbho wins out in this way, it will be a big factor to me.
a Schoeps mk41 is a SUPER cardioid.
Oleg - average interview height, 1 to 2 feet depending on shot, less if i can. I just want a mic with a nice hot, low noise output and if either the akg or mbho wins out in this way, it will be a big factor to me.
saneproductions
Veteran
Hi Tim,
I am really happy with my Schoeps, I don't use anything else anymore if I can help it. It is super quiet. I will admit that I need to almost peg the 302 to get it hot enough for really really soft talkers (like nervous little kids from longer distances like 2') I would be worried that anything else would be noisier.... Cue Oleg!
I am not saying that your average Joe should get a Schoeps instead of an Oktava and I have not heard the mics Oleg likes, but Tim you say you want to make a BIG upgrade for intereors. Do you want to make it your LAST upgrade? Because if I had gotten something else, I would always wonder. You may not be crazy like me!
I am really happy with my Schoeps, I don't use anything else anymore if I can help it. It is super quiet. I will admit that I need to almost peg the 302 to get it hot enough for really really soft talkers (like nervous little kids from longer distances like 2') I would be worried that anything else would be noisier.... Cue Oleg!
I am not saying that your average Joe should get a Schoeps instead of an Oktava and I have not heard the mics Oleg likes, but Tim you say you want to make a BIG upgrade for intereors. Do you want to make it your LAST upgrade? Because if I had gotten something else, I would always wonder. You may not be crazy like me!
Spartacus
Veteran
http://www.mbho.de/t1.htm
Oleg pointed my towards mbho, they are only 250Km from where I live and I just love the godd old mumnpops shops;o)
On the other hand I always here "Schoeps" and "sanken" when the big guys talk about the big stuff;o)
Oleg pointed my towards mbho, they are only 250Km from where I live and I just love the godd old mumnpops shops;o)
On the other hand I always here "Schoeps" and "sanken" when the big guys talk about the big stuff;o)
MIKE don't get me wrong - schoepses are good mics but they don't worth much for dialog production , these who thinking throw on 1 mic could throw on 4 different ones and get much better audio as they have more choices .
upgrade to schoeps for dialog stupid move for these who cant afford at least 2 or more , but then these who can don't really come close to this board
about the self noise - these mics have avery low output as where design for close sourcing in high levels , you will be much more likely hear your preamp noise before you will notice the mic one , so for real life the extra db of noise is nothing , by the way the 50 or the neuman150 bit **** from cmcs for self noise it doesn't say anything what people like to record their chelo with
saneproductions
Veteran
Thanks Oleg!
What do you mean here...
by the way the 50 or the neuman150 bit shi* from cmcs for self noise it doesn't say anything what people like to record their chelo with __________________
Thanks!
What do you mean here...
by the way the 50 or the neuman150 bit shi* from cmcs for self noise it doesn't say anything what people like to record their chelo with __________________
Thanks!
Wow you guys are great.
Thank you each and every one of you.
BTW HansonD , it is never a no brainer ,some of us here to learn from people like you. No info is too little or too much. So keep them coming.
Oleg says Schoeps is not good for dialog.Darn mostly I do is dialog.
So if the money is no object,what do you recomend?
Thanks
Peace.
Thank you each and every one of you.
BTW HansonD , it is never a no brainer ,some of us here to learn from people like you. No info is too little or too much. So keep them coming.
Oleg says Schoeps is not good for dialog.Darn mostly I do is dialog.
So if the money is no object,what do you recomend?
Thanks
Peace.
saneproductions
Veteran
That is exactly it, you can get a schopes IF money is no object... Oleg is saying you can get more mics that will work just fine for the same money. Schoeps are GREAT mics, the Hollywood standard for interior dialogue in fact.
saneproductions
Veteran
I would like to point out that I was going to bu the akg uls w/ ck63 cap, but the shipping from europe was going to take weeks and I didn't want to pay $1100 or so stateside. I needed something sooner than later and I got something great, I could have been really happy with the akg.
exactly what i write , they are not the quest mics but that is not what sound engineer consider only when he is recording classical music
schoepses are grate mics but if you only drive the car in the city even USA made one is quit good in traffic gem
about akg mike - its take about 2 months
and for 1 schoeps you get a pair with swivels . also you know exactly where to look if you need a pair and fast
about mbho - will probably get few answers next week about the preamps so you will know first .
by the way we are expecting my chiniz friends again to complete the million production value days ( i have a feature i start next month , it will be a fun to complete it in 2 weeks ;-)
please don't interpretate , that not what i said
saneproductions
Veteran
good thing I drive a Honda then huh?
Hey Tim,
Look at used options for Schoeps - I just picked up a CMC4 with an MK41 and a GVC for about US$600. It also came with a beaten to hell collette cable - I'm sending it out to see if it can be re-cabled - if so, it'll be another $150 and I will have a full Schoeps setup.
For me, used is the way to go. Just get it checked out to make sure it's all good.
Phil
Look at used options for Schoeps - I just picked up a CMC4 with an MK41 and a GVC for about US$600. It also came with a beaten to hell collette cable - I'm sending it out to see if it can be re-cabled - if so, it'll be another $150 and I will have a full Schoeps setup.
For me, used is the way to go. Just get it checked out to make sure it's all good.
Phil
wabbit
Evil has Ears
What the HELL!!!
Practicing psychological warfare on us Oleg? I had to take some advil after reading your post. ;->
The Schoeps mk41 is an excellent dialog mic but comes in on the high end of pricetags so unless you are someone who is at least spending 4 figures on sound, your money would be better invested elsewhere.
Really everything after the bottom end of the professional mics starts to become an opinion war on what is a better cost/benefit choice. Never make a choice on someone else's opinion, test for yourself.
Cheers
i thought that you are 60s refugee so used to colors
TVSound
Active member
I have tried the mbho. The US distributor was very accommodating. I tried it for a week without buying. Located in NYC. Can pick it up and not pay shipping if you are local. Another option to consider is T.H.E. Audio. can be purchased from
http://sound-room.com/t_h_e__audio?b=1
No swivel. However, sturdier connection for capsule.
I found both to be good. Going through Oleg for MBHO would get you a better price. I went the ebay route and got 2 mkh 435 for $650 and love them. quiet as 416. Not schoeps, but sound great.
http://sound-room.com/t_h_e__audio?b=1
No swivel. However, sturdier connection for capsule.
I found both to be good. Going through Oleg for MBHO would get you a better price. I went the ebay route and got 2 mkh 435 for $650 and love them. quiet as 416. Not schoeps, but sound great.