Record uncompressed 14-bit (4:4:4) on your HVX200
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arrestthisman
Well-known member
Alright, now here's the 4000$ question.... with mini red coming at some point, at a 5 - 7000$ price point, how will this affect hydra?
3700$ for hydra .... so 3700$ 4 hydra... versus 5 -7000 for a whole 'nother cam.
hmmm... I guess we'll just have to see what the pics look like tit for tat.
3700$ for hydra .... so 3700$ 4 hydra... versus 5 -7000 for a whole 'nother cam.
hmmm... I guess we'll just have to see what the pics look like tit for tat.
Mini Red is a pocket cam. No details, no pictures, no nothing.
That's actually not what effects Hydra.
The Si 2k Mini is what effects Hydra.
10k price point with interchangable lenses, records 2k straight to a system and is pretty much tested and shipping now.
4000 - HVX200 (very forgiving price I'm giving here)
900 - 16gb p2 Card for Uncompressed Sound
3700 - Hydra System
700 - 2tb storage solution
Total - 9300
Like I said, this is lenient. More than likely you'll be looking at 2 cards for sound, and a bit more money for an HVX.
At 9300 with no built-in interchangable lenses and a voided warranty, it becomes an entirely different ball game.
Granted, it's probably worth 3700, not saying it isn't. But you step into the realm where you ask yourself "Why not just get an SI 2k and be able to change lenses at least?"
If you add a 35mm adapter to this HVX setup, you topple over the 10k mark.
It's only 700 dollars more than we all thought, but it's still 700 dollars more than we all thought.
That's actually not what effects Hydra.
The Si 2k Mini is what effects Hydra.
10k price point with interchangable lenses, records 2k straight to a system and is pretty much tested and shipping now.
4000 - HVX200 (very forgiving price I'm giving here)
900 - 16gb p2 Card for Uncompressed Sound
3700 - Hydra System
700 - 2tb storage solution
Total - 9300
Like I said, this is lenient. More than likely you'll be looking at 2 cards for sound, and a bit more money for an HVX.
At 9300 with no built-in interchangable lenses and a voided warranty, it becomes an entirely different ball game.
Granted, it's probably worth 3700, not saying it isn't. But you step into the realm where you ask yourself "Why not just get an SI 2k and be able to change lenses at least?"
If you add a 35mm adapter to this HVX setup, you topple over the 10k mark.
It's only 700 dollars more than we all thought, but it's still 700 dollars more than we all thought.
arrestthisman
Well-known member
Nope... I agree.
It's just that regardless of form-factor, the red pocket cam is likely to be 2k, at least 4:2:2 with the redcode RAW. And 5 to 7 thousand.
I guess it's more in competition with HVX200 than anything. It'll likely be mid-2008 before we see anything, but still... I think it's something to consider.
Most people ARE interested in their likely upgrade path. When the HVX200 becomes a little dated ... what is the next move? I know I'm thinking about it. As soon as I got my original DVX I was wondering what was next. Of course, by the time I had it, "all figured out," there were completely different options available.
What's nice I think is that these cameras tend to hold their value well, so upgrade path is not such a big deal I guess. I know I've never lostmore than 40% or so value after three years selling a camera.
It's just that regardless of form-factor, the red pocket cam is likely to be 2k, at least 4:2:2 with the redcode RAW. And 5 to 7 thousand.
I guess it's more in competition with HVX200 than anything. It'll likely be mid-2008 before we see anything, but still... I think it's something to consider.
Most people ARE interested in their likely upgrade path. When the HVX200 becomes a little dated ... what is the next move? I know I'm thinking about it. As soon as I got my original DVX I was wondering what was next. Of course, by the time I had it, "all figured out," there were completely different options available.
What's nice I think is that these cameras tend to hold their value well, so upgrade path is not such a big deal I guess. I know I've never lostmore than 40% or so value after three years selling a camera.
arrestthisman
Well-known member
sorry to post/post, but I have another quick question.
Assuming they don't build in some sort of sync mechanism into sculptor HD2...
What is the workflow for... I guess it would be andromeda right now.... what is the workflow for recording, and syncing your audio to the clips. Is that done in the editor or what?
Assuming they don't build in some sort of sync mechanism into sculptor HD2...
What is the workflow for... I guess it would be andromeda right now.... what is the workflow for recording, and syncing your audio to the clips. Is that done in the editor or what?
Dude, where are people getting this 5-7k figure for for Red mini? I think you all are going to be very dissapointed - Jim and Gramme have both said that it's not a prosumer cam, it's a professional pocket cam. I'm picturing something that Peter Jackson commissioned for miniature work at WETA. And I'll be very surprised if it comes in at less than 10k.
arrestthisman
Well-known member
I don't know mike, that's just the figure everyone else has been throwing around. It makes sense though. The red one being 17k. 5-7 makes sense. BUT, that doesn't make it so.
10k $ would be cool too. Between SI-2k, red mini, and hydra... that's going to be the big thing. I know for me, the next step up is any one of those.
I'll probably wind up with Hydra since I could have so much functionality in my beloved HVX200. I have so many formats available, AND I like the f64 style deep focus, so fixed lens is not a liability for me, it's a plus.
I also agree with the new philosophy that a fixed lens made specifically for its imager will produce a better picture than an interchangeable lens.
I have to say as a former still photographer, a fantastic point and click camera is much less likely to yeild chromatic abberation in the final image than a mid-line SLR. A super premium SLR... different story, and of course, there's trade offs and benefits. But I think we've been swayed into thinking that interchangable is inherintly better than fixed, and I am with the people who challenge that notion.
The only thing that will keep me from Hydra is if they don't implement SOME way to get sync sound during recording. I personally think the best way to do it is just to build in support for Mbox into sculptor HD 2, let it record the two XLR channels directly into the computer, and BOOM, easy fix for a big problem.
Needing sync sound does not mean is HAS to come from the camera, I just think that Hydra should preserve the sync sound advantage that digital has over film.
Integrated sync sound is one feature that really does help keep crew down. Otherwise, you need a sound recordist AND someone to help sync in post for a long form production.
For documentaries Hydra could really kick A## but it needs sync sound to do so.
10k $ would be cool too. Between SI-2k, red mini, and hydra... that's going to be the big thing. I know for me, the next step up is any one of those.
I'll probably wind up with Hydra since I could have so much functionality in my beloved HVX200. I have so many formats available, AND I like the f64 style deep focus, so fixed lens is not a liability for me, it's a plus.
I also agree with the new philosophy that a fixed lens made specifically for its imager will produce a better picture than an interchangeable lens.
I have to say as a former still photographer, a fantastic point and click camera is much less likely to yeild chromatic abberation in the final image than a mid-line SLR. A super premium SLR... different story, and of course, there's trade offs and benefits. But I think we've been swayed into thinking that interchangable is inherintly better than fixed, and I am with the people who challenge that notion.
The only thing that will keep me from Hydra is if they don't implement SOME way to get sync sound during recording. I personally think the best way to do it is just to build in support for Mbox into sculptor HD 2, let it record the two XLR channels directly into the computer, and BOOM, easy fix for a big problem.
Needing sync sound does not mean is HAS to come from the camera, I just think that Hydra should preserve the sync sound advantage that digital has over film.
Integrated sync sound is one feature that really does help keep crew down. Otherwise, you need a sound recordist AND someone to help sync in post for a long form production.
For documentaries Hydra could really kick A## but it needs sync sound to do so.
Zack Birlew
Veteran
Sorry guys, I just checked my e-mail this morning. Here's a scan of the promo card they handed out.
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/zack_birlew/detail?.dir=5ebc&.dnm=d622scd.jpg&.src=ph
Kind of got snipped on the edges there during the scan, but everything important is there.
I was sure the guy I was talking to wasn't Juan, he was another Reel-Stream guy at the booth. I'll go back and check today and get you guys a pic of the "Hydramized" HVX.
He also said that they weren't going to show footage until they got some good stuff in from the beta testers. Probably during or after summer or something like that. He had a thick accent and all the noise of NAB didn't help either. But I'll go double check and make sure on the price and everything today. However, unless someone else posts it before I do, I may or may not get back until late due to the FCPUG meeting tonight.
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/zack_birlew/detail?.dir=5ebc&.dnm=d622scd.jpg&.src=ph
Kind of got snipped on the edges there during the scan, but everything important is there.
I was sure the guy I was talking to wasn't Juan, he was another Reel-Stream guy at the booth. I'll go back and check today and get you guys a pic of the "Hydramized" HVX.
He also said that they weren't going to show footage until they got some good stuff in from the beta testers. Probably during or after summer or something like that. He had a thick accent and all the noise of NAB didn't help either. But I'll go double check and make sure on the price and everything today. However, unless someone else posts it before I do, I may or may not get back until late due to the FCPUG meeting tonight.
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Matt Gottshalk
Resident Preditor
The mock up of the HVX they had at the booth was pretty cool. The port on the camera had a locking Lemo connector, which answered one of the questions I had already about the product.
The guys were very friendly and were happy to answer any questions I had.
Oh, and the footage playing in the booth from the Andromeda mod was SWEET!
The guys were very friendly and were happy to answer any questions I had.
Oh, and the footage playing in the booth from the Andromeda mod was SWEET!
Just thinking....... By the time Hydra become real, AND my bank ballance will stand the cost, my HVX will be out of warrenty anyway, so Hydra may be an interesting way forward.
Regarding fixed lenes, yes i can see how a matched system could well be better than all but the most costly interchangerbles, but hell, an HVX is now sub £4000, how much Cine lens could you get for that ? Leaving out zooms?
I too am from a stills background (40++years), and i've seen reviews of quite expensive fixed lens "bridge" cams with quite horrendous fringing, mainly from trying to cram too many pixels into too small a sensor, (That's a whole nother can of worms).
Regards,
Dave
Regarding fixed lenes, yes i can see how a matched system could well be better than all but the most costly interchangerbles, but hell, an HVX is now sub £4000, how much Cine lens could you get for that ? Leaving out zooms?
I too am from a stills background (40++years), and i've seen reviews of quite expensive fixed lens "bridge" cams with quite horrendous fringing, mainly from trying to cram too many pixels into too small a sensor, (That's a whole nother can of worms).
Regards,
Dave
Oh, and as a BTW, synching up sound is no big deal. A couple of years back my Am Dram group shot a first trial movie, all we had was a cheap consumer panny (But it did have 3 ccd's). I used my DAT to record sound, because I didn't trust the cams recording. Used a clapper as per film and synched in the Avid. A bit laborious but not dificult, and I knew I had good sound. Also recorded my school's Carol Service with 3 cams (My HVX, A FX1, and a DSR 450 wsp) and a mike array giving 6 channels of 24/96 audio to mix down. The sevice was 90 mins, so each cam gave 2 tapes. Syched with a clap at head of first tape and tail of second, again no big deal.
So, don't be afraid of recording seperate sound, it's easy!
Regards,
Dave
So, don't be afraid of recording seperate sound, it's easy!
Regards,
Dave
arrestthisman said:
I think this is the right approach, though I think an Mbox or something will probably not have a wide enough base to justify support. I have one myself and I love it to death and would be pleased as punch to get use out of it on the set (I don't even know if my powerbook would be strong enough to capture the footage so I'd probably have to upgrade *something* along the way) but I'd rather just see it have support for even something as simple as a line-in. Get a mixer, send it to line-in on the computer and then match the audio to the video stream from the ethernet port. Simple support, but it's a start. You can record nicer sound elsewhere if you want more tracks, but it wouldn't be exactly a step down from DV audio. Just not as great as the 4 channels on P2.
MojoTrancer
Well-known member
Kholi said:
Very good points, Kholi. As for the Mini Red, I refuse to get excited about a camera that has only been mentioned in passing. At this time its not even worth thinking about.
But the SI 2K is indeed a dangerous competitor at this price point. The hydra would be great for someone who's already invested in a HVX and now wants to go the extra mile. But for someone putting together a new acquisition system from scratch, it starts to make less sense.
Zack Birlew
Veteran
jeremytuttle
Well-known member
Kholi said:
It looks like a Fiber Optic cable
arrestthisman
Well-known member
JACK AWESOME!
Thanks so much for the pics.
To Dave, totally. Pixel Cram should be a four letter word... double word? whatever. hehe.
But man, my beef with the sync audio issue is exactly that, it's EASY and it's TEDIOUS! I hate that. Two things I hate very much.
Also, since reel-stream users are going to be mac guys mostly, line-in isn't really an option because unfortunately Apple's sound boards are infamously noisy. They may have fixed that, but a mixer add issues, then to unbalanced minijack... No no, no.
Mbox has coreaudio drivers, so it can be treated as a simple line in. Sculptor HD does not have to support the actual device (it would be smoother if they did.... but, it's not necessary to use it) Mbox or any other sound USB with phantom power, it just needs to accept two channels of sound from the system sound, which I do believe IS coreaudio on macs.
You know it comes to mind that half my friends are programmers.... If Juan was willing to share just enough of the source for them to try and add sound to the feed....
Andromeda uses proprietary files, I think it's .DVX or something. All they need to do is allow a seperate stream with the same file name like .DVXwav , and upon batch export, when it goes to quicktime (or avi or whatever) it picks up the stream, and even if it isn't in sync at least it's there, and it's not a seperate import process for post.
Most documentaries need 2 channels of sound max for interviews, and seperate channels really don't need to be in sync since it would be heavy sound editing anyway.
Another way for them to do it, and I think this would be the easiest, is to simply have an import audio MXF function for the Hydra.
That way you record audio in cam to P2 cards, use a clapper, then during the preview LUT (or whatever the preview workflow is for each file in Sculptor HD), in sculptor, you bring in your MXF channels to a crude timeline, sync it up and it batch exports into quicktime.
I guess the whole idea would be to make sure the audio sync is included in the first processing of the footage. Keep sync OUT of the editor for small productions. It really does help cut down on time.
The other real application for this is that is that any savings of time helps DPs who work on time deadlines. Most of my friends who do videography have very stringent timelines. I'm lucky to not do that most of the time, but Hydra could really work for everyone, and I think this is a very easy feature to fix that would help expand the target market from just feature or short films to all applications that the HVX was meant for.
Apple is going to be coming out with a subnotebook that will no doubt rock, and will no doubt have gigabit ethernet. in five years when 15% of homes or so have 1080p screens, Hydra could work for ENG if it had a sound workflow. stick the notebook in a bag, mount the HVX200 on the shoulder, and bam, best ENG besides the 60,000$ 1920x1080 intra AVC panny cam.
Very future proof.
y'all dig it?
Thanks so much for the pics.
To Dave, totally. Pixel Cram should be a four letter word... double word? whatever. hehe.
But man, my beef with the sync audio issue is exactly that, it's EASY and it's TEDIOUS! I hate that. Two things I hate very much.
Also, since reel-stream users are going to be mac guys mostly, line-in isn't really an option because unfortunately Apple's sound boards are infamously noisy. They may have fixed that, but a mixer add issues, then to unbalanced minijack... No no, no.
Mbox has coreaudio drivers, so it can be treated as a simple line in. Sculptor HD does not have to support the actual device (it would be smoother if they did.... but, it's not necessary to use it) Mbox or any other sound USB with phantom power, it just needs to accept two channels of sound from the system sound, which I do believe IS coreaudio on macs.
You know it comes to mind that half my friends are programmers.... If Juan was willing to share just enough of the source for them to try and add sound to the feed....
Andromeda uses proprietary files, I think it's .DVX or something. All they need to do is allow a seperate stream with the same file name like .DVXwav , and upon batch export, when it goes to quicktime (or avi or whatever) it picks up the stream, and even if it isn't in sync at least it's there, and it's not a seperate import process for post.
Most documentaries need 2 channels of sound max for interviews, and seperate channels really don't need to be in sync since it would be heavy sound editing anyway.
Another way for them to do it, and I think this would be the easiest, is to simply have an import audio MXF function for the Hydra.
That way you record audio in cam to P2 cards, use a clapper, then during the preview LUT (or whatever the preview workflow is for each file in Sculptor HD), in sculptor, you bring in your MXF channels to a crude timeline, sync it up and it batch exports into quicktime.
I guess the whole idea would be to make sure the audio sync is included in the first processing of the footage. Keep sync OUT of the editor for small productions. It really does help cut down on time.
The other real application for this is that is that any savings of time helps DPs who work on time deadlines. Most of my friends who do videography have very stringent timelines. I'm lucky to not do that most of the time, but Hydra could really work for everyone, and I think this is a very easy feature to fix that would help expand the target market from just feature or short films to all applications that the HVX was meant for.
Apple is going to be coming out with a subnotebook that will no doubt rock, and will no doubt have gigabit ethernet. in five years when 15% of homes or so have 1080p screens, Hydra could work for ENG if it had a sound workflow. stick the notebook in a bag, mount the HVX200 on the shoulder, and bam, best ENG besides the 60,000$ 1920x1080 intra AVC panny cam.
Very future proof.
y'all dig it?