Record uncompressed 14-bit (4:4:4) on your HVX200

Juan, we'll talk about this at NAB, but I bring this up now.

I'm a PC gyy (don't stop reading, I'll buy a mac for this if it's absolutely necessary).

Somewhere in the last 23 pages you mentioned one of (or the main) reason for using Macs is the wey they utilize the USB2 data. Right? PCs just don't process the data right.

I bought my new laptop last November, a Core2 Duo Dell Precision M90 workstation with a bunch of USB 2 ports and only 1 firewire.

My system is approved by Cineform to capture RAW footage from the Silicon Imaging camera.

Is it possible that these newer machines can handle this much date?

Is there a benchmark we can explore to test these systems?
 
BigMike,

There's talk of parallels adding support for Mac OS X running in windows. Also, it might be easier for Juan to port Scultor HD to linux, which is also easy for PCs to run.

....... of course there is always osx86......

ahem.
 
Barry_Green said:
USB was a limitation of the Andromeda. The Hydra doesn't use USB so that's no longer relevant.
Click to expand...

And because of this I'm pretty sure Juan already stated that PC support is coming, just not initially.
 
BigMike:

The issue was not that PC's couldn't handle the data internally, PC's are plenty powerful. The problem was the data rate from the USB2.0 port through the motherboard to disk.

Here's an explanation of why this is the case for all the tech-heads:

Unlike other protocols like Firewire or Ethernet, USB2.0 requires a lot of attention from the CPU to work. For example, when data packets arrive at an Ethernet adapter on your computer, the Ethernet adapter usually acts as a 'master' and sends the new data directly to memory. This is very fast and efficient.

USB2.0 on the other hand, requires the CPU to physically read from the USB2.0 controller, and then put the data somewhere. Now, this -can- be fast, but it inserts a much more complex path, full of potential bottlenecks. What it ends up coming down to, is whether or not this was a priority to the designer of the motherboard.

Please note, this has very little to do with how fast the computer is, and more with the architecture. A great example is the Apple G5. The latest G4 computers had enough USB-to-Disk bandwidth to handle Andromeda, yet the G5 which is far more powerful did not. The reason was not sheer speed, but rather that the G5 architecture puts additional latency on transactions coming from outside of the bus. Stuff that is ON the bus is faster, but CPU attention-hogs like USB2.0 can be slower.

Also, this does not necessarily mean a motherboard is badly designed at all. There are very few USB2.0 devices that use this much bandwidth, in fact to date Andromeda is the most sustained-bandwidth intensive USB2.0 device I know of. It is understandable why designing fast USB2.0-to-disk performance may not be a top priority, when probably the most common application is a USB drive which is not time-critical or isochronous.

BTW, on the Apple Intel motherboards the USB2.0-to-disk performance is superb, there is plenty of overhead.

Cheers,
Juan@reel-stream.com
 
Just a recap now that we're a week off from Hydra @ NAB. What can we expect to see announced about the system? And, as well, can we expect direct updates to the Reel-Stream website as far as the examples being shown at NAB? Or will we be waiting until after NAB for the sample footage, pics, etc.

Not asking ya to go into detail, but what's the team's experience so far with the HVX200's stock lens performance paired with the mod?

Thanks for being around to field questions here, Juan!
 
Interesting that the G4 works better than th G5.

I'm almost sorry I didn't buy a Mac when I got my HVX. It cost me a ton of money to make my system compatible.

Now that Premiere and Production Studio pro III will be supporting Macs, I'm more open to buying one... Once they start using multiple Core2 Duos instead of Xeons.

Or I won't be buying a new pc worstation until the same applies.

until they have a desktop that much faster than my dual Xeon system, I ain't buying. Since that's going to be a while, there's time to let it simmer.

Perhaps a G4 laptop, render to Quicktime and edit on the PC...? That workflow might do until I get my next tower.
 
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BigMike,

Now that you mention that I'd figure i'd mention something interesting i've ran into. I use a Dell Precision Quad 3.2Ghz Xeon 2GB which I believe is the fastest workstation Dell makes, for some development work which is PC-only. I also use a MacPro Quad 3.0Ghz with 2GB(on the Windows side). Now, i'm not sure if it is because the Dell workstation is using Win64 Pro, and the MacPro just has XP Pro(or something related to that fact), but the MacPro is leaps and bounds faster running the exact same software. I've tested both the 64-bit and 32-bit versions of the software on the Dell, and they are both far slower than the same software on the MacPro. These are very processor intensive jobs which take hours to complete, the MacPro takes at the most 1/2-1/4 the time of the Dell workstation.

Not trying to say this is the case with all PC's, i'm starting to think there is either something wrong with this Dell machine, or Apple is doing something right. This is just my personal experience. Maybe there is some difference in the version of the Xeon processor in these machines(cache, etc) which I am not aware of.

Kholi:

All the information that is released at NAB will be released on the Reel-Stream website as well. We'll also be taking pictures at NAB and posting so stay tuned to the headlines section in the front page: www.reel-stream.com

Cheers,
Juan@reel-stream.com
 
Barry_Green said:
USB was a limitation of the Andromeda. The Hydra doesn't use USB so that's no longer relevant.
Click to expand...

I need to go back to Juan's site and look for more information.
 
pertierr said:
BigMike,

Now that you mention that I'd figure I'd mention something interesting I've ran into. I use a Dell Precision Quad 3.Hz Xeon 2GB which I believe is the fastest workstation Dell makes
Click to expand...

Those Xeons are pretty danged nice but mine act as the most powerful room heater in my house when I'm rendering a graphics intensive After Effects project. Does your run a little hot?

I wanted a PC laptop so that I might use Dvorack with my HVX.

David Newman and David Taylor at Cineform convinced me to wait until the Dell Core2Duo 2.33 MHz systems came out because the Core2 Duo has a new architecture and they run much more efficiently. They didn't Dell before that because the machines couldn't handle the demands of the Cineform software. Up til then they used an HP AMD dual core.

I'm going to go through all these pages to see how Hydra will be deliviring the media. Since you mentioned it, I think it would be interesting to use an ethernet connection.

I'm a Systems Tech at ATT and we've got a new product called Opt-E-Man, a Gigabyte ethernet to the prem product. The slowest speed is 5 Megs, and it's delivered via Rj45 on speeds up 100 Megs, on fiber on anytything from 100 Megs to a Gig. It's pretty sweet.

But my next computer may be a Mac.
 
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Bigmike.

Scopebox for mac works pretty well. I haven't used DV rack but I think they both do the same thing. Scopebox is VERY stable too.
 
BigMike said:
Those Xeons are pretty danged nice but mine act as the most powerful room heater in my house when I'm rendering a graphics intensive After Effects project. Does your run a little hot?

I wanted a PC laptop so that I might use Dvorack with my HVX.

David Newman and David Taylor at Cineform convinced me to wait until the Dell Core2Duo 2.33 MHz systems came out because the Core2 Duo has a new architecture and they run much more efficiently. They didn't Dell before that because the machines couldn't handle the demands of the Cineform software. Up til then they used an HP AMD dual core.

I'm going to go through all these pages to see how Hydra will be deliviring the media. Since you mentioned it, I think it would be interesting to use an ethernet connection.

I'm a Systems Tech at ATT and we've got a new product called Opt-E-Man, a Gigabyte ethernet to the prem product. The slowest speed is 5 Megs, and it's delivered via Rj45 on speeds up 100 Megs, on fiber on anytything from 100 Megs to a Gig. It's pretty sweet.

But my next computer may be a Mac.
Click to expand...

Core 2 Architect, from my own research, is definitely kick-ass. There are overclockers remaining at 32c with speeds up to 3.2ghz on a freaking E6300 (1.86ghz factory). And they're STABLE.

Out-performing Xeons and even the higher-end E6600/E6700 based souly on GhZ speed. E6320 hits the market this late April, seeing a 4mb Level 2 cache which is what I'm basing my PC build around.

I am anticipating running OS X from another internal, as I really do NOT want to spend 2400 dollars on a Mac Pro. And that's the LOW-END build. Sheesh. I can say that the tempt behind it is being able to run Vista and XP at full system specs (outside of XP not being able to recognize more than 2gb of ram.). I forsee a heap of problems with my Hackintosh project... and can only hope that it's worth the headache.

I hate computers.
 
I hackintoshed an HP laptop last year. It ran fine, no internet, tho, although it wasn't really useful for anything but bragging rights. (Which were plentiful given that my nerd comrades had never seen one in the flesh before.) The EFI patch makes it run damn slow. It's not just code optimization.

Anyway, I have a seperate thought on Hydra. I was reading about color correction solutions today and it occured to me that FCP's CC is 8-bit.

With hydra going to 14-bit what do you guys think will become the standard CC tool, even for low level work?

I own Shake, and tried exporting a sequence for CC, and it worked wonderfully, and all in Shake's 16bit space! It might be a little cumbersome with each cut having it's own node, but it seemed like a good solution, and @ 500$ it's cheaper than color finesse; and I even get my beloved curves, which as an (regretably) Avid user, I do miss when I'm on FCP.

But this couldn't be the only way... ideas?
 
arrestthisman said:
I hackintoshed an HP laptop last year. It ran fine, no internet, tho, although it wasn't really useful for anything but bragging rights. (Which were plentiful given that my nerd comrades had never seen one in the flesh before.) The EFI patch makes it run damn slow. It's not just code optimization.

Anyway, I have a seperate thought on Hydra. I was reading about color correction solutions today and it occured to me that FCP's CC is 8-bit.

With hydra going to 14-bit what do you guys think will become the standard CC tool, even for low level work?

I own Shake, and tried exporting a sequence for CC, and it worked wonderfully, and all in Shake's 16bit space! It might be a little cumbersome with each cut having it's own node, but it seemed like a good solution, and @ 500$ it's cheaper than color finesse; and I even get my beloved curves, which as an (regretably) Avid user, I do miss when I'm on FCP.

But this couldn't be the only way... ideas?
Click to expand...
I wouldn't expect much from an HP Laptop either seeing as how Hewlitt-Packard locks their Bios so no customization can be made by the users. This has to do with their warranties and since they're so good about backing up their word, they don't want the end-user to fry their motherboards trying to be "neat" or "cool". It takes time and research (like anything you'd actually want to do right) to make it work at it's best.
 
Kholi said:
I wouldn't expect much from an HP Laptop either seeing as how Hewlitt-Packard locks their Bios so no customization can be made by the users. This has to do with their warranties and since they're so good about backing up their word, they don't want the end-user to fry their motherboards trying to be "neat" or "cool". It takes time and research (like anything you'd actually want to do right) to make it work at it's best.
Click to expand...
I don't think talking solely about HP laptops is quite on the topic, but I have no Idea where you're getting your info. Apple locks their Bios not HP. Just because HP doesn't include a multiplier doesn't mean it's locked. Averatec and IBM's Bios's are not very maliable but certianly not locked. Besides, the Bios, aside from the EFI patch (which is required by the OSX86 releases to run since no PC manufacturer as of yet provide EFI type BIOS) has very little to do with functionailty. It's mostly due to lack of drivers.

You need Ndiswrapper just to even hope to get wlan working, and Ndiswrapper is for linux and needs to be recompiled for OSX. There are a lot of hurdles and unless you know some basic programming it can be difficult. Not impossible, but difficult. PM me if you need any help. :)

I wanted to edit this to include a thought about hydra. More of a comment really:

I think it's fantastic that Juan is doing this via gigabit. Specifically on the issue of audio recording, it frees up your USB ports AND firewire. The whole flow will be very nice. Also you could have a staged storage workflow based on ports. Gigabit to Firewire, Firewire to USB (after LUT and compressed to X codec), USB detached from the field comp> add to an editing suite.

Very hep!
 
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For color correction I prefer tools such as Shake and Combustion, they easily allow for working with uncompressed image sequences as is commonly done with film scans for composition or other digital work.

Here's an important workflow aspect to consider and understand:

Most of us are used to working with 'clips' in one form or another, it could be Quicktime files, WMV files, or any other type. However, do note that one of the main reasons why the data is in that form in the first place, is because it is encapsulated in some compressed format which requires decoding/encoding.

When you open a 'clip' in any program, whatever the decoder is usually just converts the compressed data into RGB data for processing and display.

When working with uncompressed footage, many users might want to export into clips and Sculptor certainly allows for that, but the cleanest simplest workflow as far as low-level data is a sequence of uncompressed RGB images. Any program that can handle an image sequence such as Shake or Combustion can take the RGB data straight off disk and into a frame buffer, with no need for decoding, processing or codecs. As has also been mentioned, these programs work in any arbitrary precision up to 32-bit float, useful as an intermediate space for processing.

About frame ramping, it can probably be done but it would almost definitely be an 'active' mod since we would be insterting signals into the camera board.

Cheers,
Juan@reel-stream.com
 
pertierr said:
About frame ramping, it can probably be done but it would almost definitely be an 'active' mod since we would be insterting signals into the camera board.

Cheers,
Juan@reel-stream.com
Click to expand...

Juan, your the man. Ramping from the HVX would be sweeeeeeeet! It's like christmas for my camera everytime I check this post! Ramping? Sure. 2k scan? Sure. 4.4.4 color space? Sure. What next?:beer:
 
siniarch said:
Everyone keeps talking about syncing audio and that is a great point. But someone mentioned above that it didn't need to come from the camera which I feel has been lost somewhere in this discussion.

If you are going to have an HVX w/ Hydra and therefore will have a computer on the set. Why not use the computer's available audio inputs to automatically sync with the video. This would be more of a software capability.

Juan I'm sure has invested much time, money, and efforts, taking the HVX apart and figuring out how to tap into the CCds directly (which are probably located at the front of the camera)

The idea that he would now need to figure out where the audio components are, find out how they work and how he can tap into them (which would probably take place towards the back of the camera) seems like a huge undertaking to me.

It entails having to work on a different part of the camera, somehow internally bringing the audio from the camera towards the front and running it through the Network cable that will be bringing the video in.

I for one don't like the internal mics on the camera, and feel that in no way they should be use in anything that is really professional and justifies using Hydra. I think external mics should be use.

If you feel the same, then you still have to run a cable from the external mic (on a boom or something) to the camera. Why not run the cable from the mic to the computer ingesting Hydra files? And having that computer syncing the video and audio?
If not syncing the audio and video into one. How about having a HydrAudio application running at the same time that Sculptor 2 is. and having it be controlled slightly by sculptor. so when you hit record on sculptor, HydrAudio hits record as well and names the files exactly the same name Sculptor is name their file (just with a *.wav extension) and placing them in the same folder. When it comes time to edit, you have both files identically named in the same folder. Not really hard to sync if you ask me.

(I've never used andromeda, so I might not understand how sculptor works. but I hope this makes sense)
Click to expand...

I've been pestering Juan to do this for months. ;)

When I use Andromeda, I record sound into the iMac I use for capture. Juan was talking about adding in an "audio in" feature, so I'm really hoping that made it into the new version of Sculptor soon to be released.

Currently I've just been using a clapboard, and I sync the audio and video up later.
 
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