Somebody with some time and a 3D program...
- Thread starter PeterCCE
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Anhar_Miah
Veteran
Hmm, I'll look into it. So please give me some time, as I'm busy currently.
Matt Grunau
Adobe Demigod
Firstly, you can't open 3D objects in After Effects. Second, modeling a bottle with a note inside is easy, and changing the texture on the note and using crossfades in between renders to fade out one name and fade in another is simple too. The main problem is water. You have a picture of a bottle partially submerged in water, with the movement of the water (presumably) affecting the movement of the bottle. This is where is begins to get complicated.
There is no such thing as "water" in a 3D app, rather, it is a flat plane divided into many, many polygons and then either driven by a displacement map or by something like endomorphs or even a simple bone system, the water moves. But, it is still only a single plane. You can't partially submerge a bottle object in it, unless you do a couple of things.
You could set up the water object with soft body dynamics (like a flag or cloth), and have the bottle object trigger them but having it push into those polys creating"movement", of you could build the water from polys directly from the bottle, which would have them physically attached to it, set up your soft body dynamics, and by using something akin a a weight map, have the dynamics not affect the bottle, in a sense, keeping it rigid.
There is also the factor or refraction, caustics, and transparancy, something both the bottle and water would have, and both at different settings, since water does not treat light the same as glass/plastic. This portion could be handled with differing texture attributes, but would require someone who really knows textures to pull it off.
The shot you are calling for if you are looking for photorealism is not simple, to say the least.
If you plan to film the water, that cuts down on some of the difficulty in creating it in 3D, but then you have the problem of camera matching the movement of the water and your real camera. Now your are into the area of motion tracking, something that would be a cast iron ***** with moving water.
Lastly, most 3D apps with the exception of the higher end ones will not pull this shot off realistically, and certainly not with photorealism. The ones that can, you will have to pay for the user, and pay good money for it. I would rethink that shot if I were you, or consider simplifying it by either using photographic elements you can warp with something like the Mesh Warp or Liquify tools in AE (and use a photograph with the highest dimensions you can) or use a relatively simple layered setup with the background, foreground waves and bottle all as seperate elements. The problem with that method is getting any real 3D moement out of the bottle. It will not spin or rotate.
That is not an easy shot to create in 3D.
There is no such thing as "water" in a 3D app, rather, it is a flat plane divided into many, many polygons and then either driven by a displacement map or by something like endomorphs or even a simple bone system, the water moves. But, it is still only a single plane. You can't partially submerge a bottle object in it, unless you do a couple of things.
You could set up the water object with soft body dynamics (like a flag or cloth), and have the bottle object trigger them but having it push into those polys creating"movement", of you could build the water from polys directly from the bottle, which would have them physically attached to it, set up your soft body dynamics, and by using something akin a a weight map, have the dynamics not affect the bottle, in a sense, keeping it rigid.
There is also the factor or refraction, caustics, and transparancy, something both the bottle and water would have, and both at different settings, since water does not treat light the same as glass/plastic. This portion could be handled with differing texture attributes, but would require someone who really knows textures to pull it off.
The shot you are calling for if you are looking for photorealism is not simple, to say the least.
If you plan to film the water, that cuts down on some of the difficulty in creating it in 3D, but then you have the problem of camera matching the movement of the water and your real camera. Now your are into the area of motion tracking, something that would be a cast iron ***** with moving water.
Lastly, most 3D apps with the exception of the higher end ones will not pull this shot off realistically, and certainly not with photorealism. The ones that can, you will have to pay for the user, and pay good money for it. I would rethink that shot if I were you, or consider simplifying it by either using photographic elements you can warp with something like the Mesh Warp or Liquify tools in AE (and use a photograph with the highest dimensions you can) or use a relatively simple layered setup with the background, foreground waves and bottle all as seperate elements. The problem with that method is getting any real 3D moement out of the bottle. It will not spin or rotate.
That is not an easy shot to create in 3D.
Anhar_Miah
Veteran
ok, I'll have to agree with much of what Matt has said, now that I've had a chance to look into it.
My advice is that buy far the simplest way you could pull this shot is but shooting a floating bottle with a Blank "Letter" (perhaps with some trackers on it) THEN you could simpli object track it and replace it with 3d "Letter" with the names fading from one credit roll to the next, however some Roto work may be needed if the bottles dips below water and to generally add some reflection back onto the bottle surface.
My advice is that buy far the simplest way you could pull this shot is but shooting a floating bottle with a Blank "Letter" (perhaps with some trackers on it) THEN you could simpli object track it and replace it with 3d "Letter" with the names fading from one credit roll to the next, however some Roto work may be needed if the bottles dips below water and to generally add some reflection back onto the bottle surface.
Gord.T
Still "Senior Member"
If the waves are very small, er, ripples, motion tracking the letter is possible. But I would only give it a 50/50 chance of getting good tracking. The bottle is going to roll and generally bob all over the 3D axis.
And I think a plastic Coke bottle is not a good choice. There are alot of image distorting surfaces on that.
Would it not be hard to read the text within? A standard glass bottle might be better.
Possible, but who ever tries it, let us know how it goes. I'd begin with a test using a bottle floating in the bathtub and work up. Good luck.
And I think a plastic Coke bottle is not a good choice. There are alot of image distorting surfaces on that.
Would it not be hard to read the text within? A standard glass bottle might be better.
Possible, but who ever tries it, let us know how it goes. I'd begin with a test using a bottle floating in the bathtub and work up. Good luck.
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Wauw! What a responce! I did know this was a good forum, but so many posts in one day, thank you very much!
As first, there's one misunderstanding (I think that's because of my english):
De credits does NOT show on the letter inside the bottle, but on the etiket. See below for a quik paint job. (as you see, it doesn't matter if it is a coca cola bottle. And the coca bottle is already shot in a different scene, so...)
I'd thought, If I'd film a shot like below ("water shot"), with underwater camera-protection (I've got a ewa-marine), to use that shot for the water.
So you doesn't look from above, but half of the screen is filled with water, and the other half is above the water. That's the background layer.
Than make another of the same shot (or use the same and key out the air), and use that with a little less opacity, some color-correction, (whatever is needed), for the foreground layer.
The bottle comes between, with under water some color correction and maybe some distort.
I think I'm able to do the things above, if i could work in after effects. I've got 3D Invigorator pro, from zaxswerks. I've never used it yet (no time unfortunately), but I think it is possible to open 3d-models in after effects if you've got that plugin, isn't it?
Do you guys think it could work this way?
It is more easy (I do not say easy!) to make only the bottle. But indeed, it has to rotate and stuff, in the water. But IF I can open it with 3D Invigorator pro in after effects, that should be possible, shouldn't it?
Merci!
As first, there's one misunderstanding (I think that's because of my english):
De credits does NOT show on the letter inside the bottle, but on the etiket. See below for a quik paint job. (as you see, it doesn't matter if it is a coca cola bottle. And the coca bottle is already shot in a different scene, so...)
I'd thought, If I'd film a shot like below ("water shot"), with underwater camera-protection (I've got a ewa-marine), to use that shot for the water.
So you doesn't look from above, but half of the screen is filled with water, and the other half is above the water. That's the background layer.
Than make another of the same shot (or use the same and key out the air), and use that with a little less opacity, some color-correction, (whatever is needed), for the foreground layer.
The bottle comes between, with under water some color correction and maybe some distort.
I think I'm able to do the things above, if i could work in after effects. I've got 3D Invigorator pro, from zaxswerks. I've never used it yet (no time unfortunately), but I think it is possible to open 3d-models in after effects if you've got that plugin, isn't it?
Do you guys think it could work this way?
It is more easy (I do not say easy!) to make only the bottle. But indeed, it has to rotate and stuff, in the water. But IF I can open it with 3D Invigorator pro in after effects, that should be possible, shouldn't it?
Merci!
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Anhar_Miah
Veteran
did you want the credits on the "Label" of the bottle? if thats the case, then shooting it and then motion tracking the object or even "corner pinning" could work much better than 3d intergration.
Gord.T
Still "Senior Member"
How about filming the (Coke) bottle floating in real & relatively calm water. Some natural movement ofcourse. Like close but not too close to a shoreline. (depends on the tests)
The (Outside) label could be face up with targets for motion tracking. The bottle could be partially filled with some water to keep the bottle stable from rolling. Shoot downward (standing above the bottle, but still angeled ). If as above then I'd raise my odds to around 90's percentage.
Also may help to shoot at 60fps progressive if possible to get better tracking.
Possibly do a slow-mo credit roll?
/mmm.... the 1/2 under water thing...still possible BUT the trackers will have to be above the water line.
Maybe simplify. Unless we're talking Hollywood bucks. Then...hey,we're on it.
The (Outside) label could be face up with targets for motion tracking. The bottle could be partially filled with some water to keep the bottle stable from rolling. Shoot downward (standing above the bottle, but still angeled ). If as above then I'd raise my odds to around 90's percentage.
Also may help to shoot at 60fps progressive if possible to get better tracking.
Possibly do a slow-mo credit roll?
/mmm.... the 1/2 under water thing...still possible BUT the trackers will have to be above the water line.
Maybe simplify. Unless we're talking Hollywood bucks. Then...hey,we're on it.
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Hello!
"I'd raise my odds to around 90's percentage."
What do you mean? What's a odd?
I usually shoot in progressive, but 60fps is only possible with the hvx200, isn't it? I've got a DVX... But I could film interlaced, and than do this: http://www.perennialmedia.com/outgoing/tutorials/slowmo-tutorial.mov
A half/half shot is nicer, but indeed, it's more difficult. I could try to keep the label half above the water to be able to use motion tracking.
I think I'll try a real shot, and if that's really impossible, I could always come back.
It will take a while before I'll film it, in about 4 weeks maybe. You'll see me around here if there's another problem. And thank you very much!
"I'd raise my odds to around 90's percentage."
What do you mean? What's a odd?
I usually shoot in progressive, but 60fps is only possible with the hvx200, isn't it? I've got a DVX... But I could film interlaced, and than do this: http://www.perennialmedia.com/outgoing/tutorials/slowmo-tutorial.mov
A half/half shot is nicer, but indeed, it's more difficult. I could try to keep the label half above the water to be able to use motion tracking.
I think I'll try a real shot, and if that's really impossible, I could always come back.
It will take a while before I'll film it, in about 4 weeks maybe. You'll see me around here if there's another problem. And thank you very much!
Anhar_Miah
Veteran
Give me some video with trackers on, (locked down shot) and I'll probably be able to track it for you and slap on a CGI Label with moving credits...
P.S Make sure that the lable is a nice green (for keying) with small yellow markers (only about five will do) one in each corner and one in the middle.
Anhar
P.S Make sure that the lable is a nice green (for keying) with small yellow markers (only about five will do) one in each corner and one in the middle.
Anhar
Gord.T
Still "Senior Member"
I just meant I would give it a 90% chance of being successfull. Won't know until the testing. It may work really well. Maybe I can talk my brother into doing a test shot with his DVX before we head out to shoot today. I found a water bottle which will do for the test. I don't know about a green label though.
/Just tried the bottle. I experimented with how much water to fill it with. It was very stable and the added weight kept it partially submerged. At this point I'd say it is totally possible. I don't see any problem getting good tracking.
/Just tried the bottle. I experimented with how much water to fill it with. It was very stable and the added weight kept it partially submerged. At this point I'd say it is totally possible. I don't see any problem getting good tracking.
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Anhar_Miah
Veteran
of course, as raptor has said, its very very important that tests are done before doing anything final.
Raptor, could you possible do a locked down shot and maybe upload to youtube so I can see it?
Raptor, could you possible do a locked down shot and maybe upload to youtube so I can see it?
Gord.T
Still "Senior Member"
No, it is not shot yet. Just did some tests first. My brother has not arrived yet.
When he does I'll try a quick shoot then but will have to head out so later tonight I'll work on it and post it. I don't see any problems though. Um, just shooting at 45 degree angle down for now. We don't have under water capability.
-Also the bottle is in a sink. I splahed the water around to checked stability. I'll try shooting it in the tub and splash around to make some waves. If that all works then go from there.
When he does I'll try a quick shoot then but will have to head out so later tonight I'll work on it and post it. I don't see any problems though. Um, just shooting at 45 degree angle down for now. We don't have under water capability.
-Also the bottle is in a sink. I splahed the water around to checked stability. I'll try shooting it in the tub and splash around to make some waves. If that all works then go from there.
Matt Grunau
Adobe Demigod
This may sound off the wall, but I wonder how much of this could be pulled off shooting in fish tank? Sounds crazy, but if you took out the filter lowered the water to the point where the top of the bottle almost reaches the top of the tank, put a little milk to haze, and shot it against whatever color background you want the water to be, you would have the illusion of z-depth.
You'd need a fairly large tank, but not really a wide one. Also, you could have perfect lighting, because you could light it yourself.
Maybe you could rent one from a pet store for a day or so, explaining what you need it for.
You'd need a fairly large tank, but not really a wide one. Also, you could have perfect lighting, because you could light it yourself.
Maybe you could rent one from a pet store for a day or so, explaining what you need it for.
Gord.T
Still "Senior Member"
The label:
I drew a black cross with MS Paint then copied it over with another program.
Printed it and used clear packing tape to place on the bottle where the label would be.
Very cheap targets. Not the best.
The Bottle:
I placed a bunch of nails inside the bottle to weigh it down.
The bottle still bobs sideways but not much. Still, maybe a better idea would be to have 3 pieces of fishing line epoxy glued to the bottom.
Weigh down each of the 3 ends with something. That might help keep it from rotating.
Some of the bobbing/waves were pretty strong.
It was only shot at 24p so there was some blurring. 60p would be better.
I polygoned around the label to limit tracking to that area.
Else the water and other movement would be tracked.
It appeared to track alright.
Problem is I forgot how long it takes to solve the camera. About 3 hours for this and it bogs down the computer. I have other stuff I need to work on right now so I'll start the camera solve before I go to sleep.
I'll know tomorrow how the tracking went.
In the meantime here's a pic of the target tracking and a video link.
I doubt the video on the link is trackable due to how the web-site
compresses it. I'm using uncompressed footage.
But it should give you some ideas. You can see how the bottle rotates a bit.
That needs to be fixed. Maybe you could work with Anhar thru the final stages as he was first to offer. I'll still help out as needed. I'll wait for some responses.
I'll be back tomorrow with the test results.
http://s179.photobucket.com/albums/w289/TheRaptor365/?action=view¤t=PlasticBottle-Clip002.flv
I drew a black cross with MS Paint then copied it over with another program.
Printed it and used clear packing tape to place on the bottle where the label would be.
Very cheap targets. Not the best.
The Bottle:
I placed a bunch of nails inside the bottle to weigh it down.
The bottle still bobs sideways but not much. Still, maybe a better idea would be to have 3 pieces of fishing line epoxy glued to the bottom.
Weigh down each of the 3 ends with something. That might help keep it from rotating.
Some of the bobbing/waves were pretty strong.
It was only shot at 24p so there was some blurring. 60p would be better.
I polygoned around the label to limit tracking to that area.
Else the water and other movement would be tracked.
It appeared to track alright.
Problem is I forgot how long it takes to solve the camera. About 3 hours for this and it bogs down the computer. I have other stuff I need to work on right now so I'll start the camera solve before I go to sleep.
I'll know tomorrow how the tracking went.
In the meantime here's a pic of the target tracking and a video link.
I doubt the video on the link is trackable due to how the web-site
compresses it. I'm using uncompressed footage.
But it should give you some ideas. You can see how the bottle rotates a bit.
That needs to be fixed. Maybe you could work with Anhar thru the final stages as he was first to offer. I'll still help out as needed. I'll wait for some responses.
I'll be back tomorrow with the test results.
http://s179.photobucket.com/albums/w289/TheRaptor365/?action=view¤t=PlasticBottle-Clip002.flv