Record uncompressed 14-bit (4:4:4) on your HVX200

Kholi,

Regarding codecs, SculptorHD 1.0.3 renders to whatever QT codecs you have on your system. I am assuming the same for SculptorHD 2, though Juan has several times on this forum mentioned using the original capture files without rendering.

As far as cost, an HVX200 can be had on eBay for around $3500. Paying $6000 + $500 for a Mini would be about 10 grand. And if it meets the projected specs, to me, this would be an incredible bargain.

We'll know more once we can see some footage, of course. But based on my experience with the Andromeda, I am optimistic! ReelStream has also been excellent with the tech support, which certainly helps my confidence.
 
Paying 6k for what? Hydra? That might be an incredible bargain for you, but certainly not me.

Paying 6k for the HVX + Hydra (which in your example brings the Hydra in at about 2500) -- Definitely fine with me. I am expecting a 2500 or less price-tag, which could be bad for me.

For me, anything above 3k for the Hydra mod, considering camera hacking, warranty voids (this doesn't apply to me because my Cam didn't have a warranty when I bought it), and external devices to take advantage of it would be a bit too much.

The original capture files would be great, as I enjoy not having to render my HVX footage in FCP. Just move it over and slice. =)
 
BIG QUESTION FOR PEOPLE WHO ALREADY OWN THE HVX200 and want to by the new Product from Reel-Stream.....


...How do they install these systems into your camera? Do you have to send it in and they install it for you? I am aware that it comes complete with software, but as far as the hardware, how do they install it if the old Andromeda in the dvx goes inside the camera? is it a simple thing that you just stick on the back or to the side of the camera? How does it mount on? where does it go? Will you have to buy the HVX with it already included? Lastly, what's the difference between 1080p and 2k? Any help would be appreciated.
 
Domis Entertainment said:
BIG QUESTION FOR PEOPLE WHO ALREADY OWN How do they install these systems into your camera? Do you have to send it in and they install it for you?
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AFAIK, yes.

. . . as far as the hardware, how do they install it if the old Andromeda in the dvx goes inside the camera? is it a simple thing that you just stick on the back or to the side of the camera? How does it mount on? where does it go?
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It's "invasive" -- that's why it voids the warranty. I believe the only thing you would see is a new port.

Will you have to buy the HVX with it already included?
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No, as Juan has said, "our target is affordable uncompressed wide-latitude HD for everyone, and adding flexibility to the cameras people already own."

Lastly, what's the difference between 1080p and 2k?
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It depends on the 1080p format you're talking about -- it could be 1,280, 1,440, or 1,920 by 1,080 pixels. The latter format has roughly 6% fewer horizontal pixels than 2K (2,048).
 
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How GLORIOUS!! I've been waiting for this. 2k res is awesome. The next move is to have those guys over in Europe canibalize the front of the HVX to hold film style lenses or fast 35mm lenses. But I think even with a 35mm adapter the light loss might be insignificant. Let me know if there will be a list.
 
Ernest_Acosta said:
How GLORIOUS!! I've been waiting for this. 2k res is awesome. The next move is to have those guys over in Europe canibalize the front of the HVX to hold film style lenses or fast 35mm lenses. But I think even with a 35mm adapter the light loss might be insignificant. Let me know if there will be a list.
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Warranty's already voided after HYDRA-- Might as well do it. LoL
 
The biggest thing holding me back from getting my DVX-100b andromedized was the fact that it relied on USB. If there's a Hydra kit released for the DVX I'd be euphoric.

[Edit] Would the Hydra require all of the GB ethernet bandwidth or would it be possible to equip the camera with a battery powered wireless 802.11n bridge?
 
Alex.Mitchell said:
[Edit] Would the Hydra require all of the GB ethernet bandwidth or would it be possible to equip the camera with a battery powered wireless 802.11n bridge?
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O_o;; Wi-Fi Hydra? Similar to the AppleTV's high-bandwith wi-fi delivery?

O_o;;;;;;;
 
Alex.Mitchell said:
Would the Hydra require all of the GB ethernet bandwidth or would it be possible to equip the camera with a battery powered wireless 802.11n bridge?
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You would run into latency issues, this is basically a streaming technology. With this volume of data there would be no way I can think of to cache it to cover the bi-directional latency that RF would introduce. The bits have to stream from the camera, to the network interface, through the bus, through the CPU (making several brief stops in system memory) , and finally to disk. It will have to be pretty butter smooth.

For this same reason I beileve you will need two or more CPU cores so that process queueing wouldn't effect the stream. This process will most likely monopolize one core and the other will have to take care of all of the other processes.

I am guessing that the port on the camera is not a normal network jack, rather it is a 'uplink' jack (the Tx and Rx wires would be flipped, like a built in X-over cable). This will allow you to to plug it directly into a computer without a hub or switch in between. You will probably also have a specific network setup mandated by the hydra technology (force to GigE, force IP Address & mask).

Bob
 
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So exactly how likely would it be to see a DVX Hydra?

By the way, is it possible to pull 60p from an Andromedized DVX? I've been wondering for a while.
 
Okay well if no hvx500 you still need a 35mm adapter to get that nice dof, plus the light loss with adapter. Is something with an interchangeable lens being considered for the hydra mod? I hear folks talking about the weakest link being the lense so if you can switch the lenses it should solve that problem. But if you think the fixed hvx200 lense is good enough then go ahead. I know a 2K JVC HD 100 would be a very popular mod also because of the lens options. No variable framerates with the JVC. I really think you picked the right camera to HYDRA mod first. Do your thing!
 
Nik Manning said:
Okay well if no hvx500 you still need a 35mm adapter to get that nice dof, plus the light loss with adapter.
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You can get very nice shallow DOF with a 2/3" camera without having to use an adapter. An adapter can help you get shallower, but it's already light years better than a 1/3".

I know a 2K JVC HD 100 would be a very popular mod also because of the lens options.
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IINM, that can't happen. You can't get more res out of an HD100 because they only have a 1K imager block. They brag about having "no pixel shift", well, guess what -- that means no increase is possible. It could, however do a full 1280x720@4:4:4. Just not 1920x1080 or 2k.
 
crashandannie said:
Arrestthisman,

A couple of points:

1) As an Andromeda user, I've been working with the similar system for a while now. Recording the audio in double system and syncing in post is the standard procedure for anyone shooting film, and it isn't nearly as cumbersome as you seem to think.

2) Some Andromeda users are already using firewire mixers to capture multi-channel audio directly to the same computer they are recording the video files to. I've done this as well, but I've gone back to recording audio onto a separate system, as a sound recordist is much better at making sure I have quality audio! You have to sync either way, but it really isn't a problem and once you get into the swing doesn't take much time. And if you are using P2 or tape to record audio in camera, it is simple to offline with this footage and audio and re-capture your video at the end using the higher res.

3) YOU DON"T NEED A 2K LAPTOP TO USE THIS SYSTEM! Sorry for the shouting, but Juan has said several times and it is listed in the specs for Hydra that ANY Intel Mac will work. Get a refurb Mini at $479 or an iMac at $949.

4) Maybe, I'm wrong here, but it looks like Red will run a lot more than originally anticipated. Mike over at HD for Indies (if I recall correctly) estimated $30 to 40K for a viable system. Definitely not "12.2 grand" and at least half again as much for a very basic Red camera.

Does this make sense? If not, any errors are solely on my part and I welcome any corrections anyone would care to make. As far as Andromeda horror stories, I haven't heard any that were the Andro system's fault, but were instead computer crashes, etc. Anyone know differently?
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Yes. Many errors. I never said the Red would cost 12.2. You misread. I had a 12 grand figure, then I used a period (I.E. .) to seperate the sentance and begin another one quoting 20 grand for a different product.

Second, I'm glad you're having a good experience using andromeda, but it doesn't matter a whole lot to me if one person had a good experience.

I'm already aware, as are 99.9 percent of the people here that film is recorded with a seperate device for audio. As I said, in-cam sync sound is an advantage that digital has, which is voided by this mod. It is good to know that there is a workaround to get sync sound in the andro/hydra system without in-cam sound recording. Also, just because the extra steps don't bother YOU, doesn't mean that it won't bother me. I hate syncing sound. Period. It's like the dentist. Maybe you like getting your teeth cleaned. I do anyway, but I don't like it. I edit online, not offline. That is the way I work. So for me, yes, it is "as cumbersome as I think."

Last, I'm sorry but I don't buy that ANY intel mac will work. I'm sure that Juan has great software, but capturing 1080p 14megabytes/sec in scopebox dropped two frames in a 30 second test shoot on a dual-core imac. I could not feel comfortable without at least a comperable computer with a RAID attached for the hydra output.

Also... an IMAC ARE YOU KIDDING?!?!?! A MINI. I guess if you're in a greenscreen studio, fine. Out in the field I doubt anything less than a laptop would suffice. Being tethered is not a PLUS. It's a necessary sacrifice that saves money in this instance. For most people's applications I think a laptop would be needed. Also, working under time=money, a lost shot due to power failure is not cool. So you'd need ABS for a mini or an imac. making it even more cumbersome. A laptop is the way to go. I'm as sure of that as I am that I wouldn't buy hydra unless it's under 3.5K$

That's my rant. I really hope that you spend more time considering the fact that all applications are different before you comment on what is a very subjective process; that being workflow. But hey I'm probably just bitchy because my headache meds just wore off and I've been awake for two days straight.

May I PM you for advice when I get my Andromedia back in the mail :) ?
 
Hello,

Sorry if i'm recovering ground here, but this thread is getting awful big...

Barry is correct, the HD100 has 1280x720 with no pixel shift, which means you can only get 1280x720 out of it, maybe a little more if they're cutting off parts of the sensors.

I should reiterate, doing a 3-sensor block with 1280x720 sensors or doing a 3-sensor block with 3-sensors with less pixels in them but pixel shift, are approaches each with different advantages.

Many users are completely focused on resolution numbers, and the reason is understandable, it's an easily-quantifiable and marketable quantity that allows consumers to justify spending more money on one camera over another. But the truth is, the acquisition qualities of motion picture film are far more vast and varied than just sheer resolving power.

Don't get me wrong, resolving power is important, but it's not the single defining parameter to achieving a look emulating motion picture film acquisition. If you don't believe me, take a look at some superb Panavision Genesis footage and then look at the sensor specs.

Sensor size being equal, by taking an approach where you have no pixel-shift and more pixels per sensor, you are decreasing the surface area of each pixel element and (sensor technology being equal) negatively affecting parameters such as sensitivity, SNR and dynamic range.

The fact that all these cameras have outputs designed to comply with standards in a way makes the above explained issue normally difficult to observe. For example, the DVX is capable of some wide dynamic range, but because it normally only outputs DV, you only see a fraction of that potential. With HD cameras, even those with uncompressed HD-SDI out, those signals have to comply with standards which dictate what 'valid' images are going to look like. Our system skips all that and allows the user to mold the images in their native form.

Last, I'm sorry but I don't buy that ANY intel mac will work. I'm sure that
Juan has great software, but capturing 1080p 14megabytes/sec in scopebox dropped two frames in a 30 second test shoot on a dual-core imac. I could not feel comfortable without at least a comperable computer with a RAID attached for the hydra output.
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I should first say that I am in no way saying anything negative about ScopeBox or any other software, every piece of software has their challenges and their bugs. Doing realtime encoding/decoding like ScopeBox has a whole box full of challenges, i know for a fact.

That said, Andromeda users have been recording 28MByte/sec continously for over a year now, and ~as long as the user-provided disk performs at the required data rate~, SculptorHD does not drop any frames in the middle of the stream. It may drop a couple at the very end of the recording depending on what the settings are, but not in the middle, none at all. This works on the bottom-line Intel Mac Mini with a fast firewire drive connected.

One of the biggest blessings and at the same time problems with this system, is that most of it is provided and setup by the user. The Computer, and hard disk recording media is user provided and setup. SculptorHD does the best it can in monitoring the disk bandwidth and warning the user as early as possible if the disk is too slow. But we have had a few people who hookup the system to a powerbook or mac mini and expect to record uncompressed HD into a 4200RPM laptop drive! This spec is in big red letters in the SculptorHD manual. To reiterate, you need to have:

A.)A computer system listed as supported
B.)A hard disk or other recording media that will be capable of sustaining 28MByte/sec write speed over the required recording period.

Hydra will have similarly structured requirements, although with different data rates for different modes.

For some reason people think that our system can bend space and time, it can't. :) Again, your hard disk needs to be fast enough, if it isn't, you won't be able to record for longer than your RAM allows.

Also... an IMAC ARE YOU KIDDING?!?!?! A MINI. I guess if you're in a greenscreen studio, fine. Out in the field I doubt anything less than a laptop would suffice
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I think our experiences with what a movie set looks like must be vastly different. Unless the production is a run-and-gun type or a reality show with a handheld camcorder and nothing else, any motion picture set i've seen has at least video taps, power and audio running out of the camera. That's at the very least, and these are very thick clumsy cables.

Even the smallest, most feature-packed professional HD digital cinematography monitor I know of is the size of an iMac, and you have the advantage of using a single unit as monitor and recording station.

Don't get me wrong, there's all sorts of shooting situations for all sorts of jobs, but this product is, again, not meant to be a sledge-hammer for all situations. If you're doing run and gun handheld shooting, this product is probably not for you. You will probably need a pocket full of P2 cards, or miniDV tape, or an HDV camera, etc. :)

Cheers,
Juan@reel-stream.com
 
fun with run and gun?

fun with run and gun?

Dear Juan, on your last post: I am considering a macbook pro and fast drives, maybe a couple of lightweight bus-powered 7200 rpm fw800 in a raid setup like described on your site, all of it residing in a vented backpack. And with cables and connections properly secured. I don't think that the weight is that important, I also do steadicam work and it's not a problem if the setup is done right. So, don't you think that Hydra is an option for handheld/stabillizer work, when done as described?
:huh:
best, soren
 
Juan, everything you said makes sense.

I think the system is awesome, and if the price is right I'll be sending in my cam to you as soon as my warranty runs out.

I do mostly documentary work, although recently I've been moving to more stationary jobs, lots of greenscreen, VFX, and CGI coming up this year. So I'm generally not used to "sets." Nearly everything I do is on-location. That said, the extra lattitude would be nice.

Also, I generally do my own color grading and a TON of it. digital color timing is kind of my forte, and a favored element of mine in terms of maximizing the image. Again, the Hydra would offer me a lot of improvement in that respect, and with Cineform coming to Mac .... NICE.

When will we know the pricing?

Lastly, How will the Hydra compare to the SI-2k? Obviously the PL mount is an advantage, but I love the motion characteristics of Panasonic's 24p. I would be in dept to hear your opinion on that.

You're awesome! M357
 
Barry_Green said:
You can get very nice shallow DOF with a 2/3" camera without having to use an adapter. An adapter can help you get shallower, but it's already light years better than a 1/3".


IINM, that can't happen. You can't get more res out of an HD100 because they only have a 1K imager block. They brag about having "no pixel shift", well, guess what -- that means no increase is possible. It could, however do a full 1280x720@4:4:4. Just not 1920x1080 or 2k.
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What I was saying is that with the 1/3" camera you need a 35mm adaptor for that nice dof not the hvx500. Just to clearify. That is why I was recommending the mod for the HVX500. Also it would allow multiple framerates in 2K. So to me it would be the perfect cam. 4K is great but RED starts off at 26k for a functioning camera without lens. HVX500 could be as little as 13k street price + 3k mod. That is a substantial savings. Also the workflow would be amazing. Edit everything in 720p and shop that version then when you need to you can go to 2K master.
 
arrestthisman said:
but it doesn't matter a whole lot to me if one person had a good experience.
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Maybe to someone just standing on the sidelines it does matter. That's what these boards are for.

arrestthisman said:
I really hope that you spend more time considering the fact that all applications are different before you comment on what is a very subjective process; that being workflow.
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Any comment on film making is almost surely going to be subjective.

Almost every post I have read of your's has some really personal and inflammatory comments in it directed toward other users. No one here appreciates behavior like that. Ending your post with:

arrestthisman said:
But hey I'm probably just bitchy because my headache meds just wore off and I've been awake for two days straight.
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or a smiley doesn't make it alright.

So please, refrain from posting this way, it doesn't help the community in any way.

pertierr: Sounds like a fun system. Wish I had a HVX to play with but hey, you might see my DVX soon enough. Keep up the awesome work!
 
Arrestthisman,

My apologies if I mis-read your post. It looked at first (and second) read like you were using a decimal point, not a period. Now that you have explained, I see I was in error.

Regarding the experience of using Andromeda and working with ReelStream, I can only go by what I know from my experience. If you haven't used the Andro system, you can only go by what others have to say. I should think that would give my words a little more weight, as I do know whereof I speak, but I understand others might have had different outcomes.

I do grasp that applications are different. But this thread is specific to ReelStream's Hydra product, and, since no one can subjectively comment on Hydra workflows at this time I assumed that my experience with a similar product with a similar workflow from the same company would have some bearing on this. I also understand that most people reading this are aware of double-system sound recording for film. Since that seemed to be a cause of concern for you with this product, I simply was trying to share my experience, again, working with a similar workflow.

On the computer end, I am currently using a Mini and a Lacie Little Big Disk to capture Andromeda content. The two units reside on a RedRock micropod at the back of my DVX, and are powered for field use by an NRG battery belt. I have to this point not had any issues with shots lost from power loss. And I can shoot handheld, though not for extremely long periods of time. And no, I am not kidding about an iMac, especially if you do studio work. The built-in monitor can be very helpful and it is cheaper than a MacBookPro.

If I were doing documentary or news work, I wouldn't even consider the ReelStream line. But for price to performance, I have been very pleased, and am certainly looking hard at Hydra.

And please feel free to PM with any questions or insights regarding your future Andromeda experience. I'm always glad to help (and to learn)!
 
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