Critique this scene from short film

F

FilmBoy77

Veteran
please give feedback on this scene. i had directed this scene a couple of months ago and you guys gave me some good critiques and i had made a lot of newbie mistakes so i had decided to redo the scene. it's from my short film which is only about four scenes long (14 mins).

so, this is actually my second time filming something, but i want that tough love again. please elaborate on what i can do better next time if there is something you feel didn't work. i wrote, directed and edited this short.

also please critique the acting because my actors wanted me to cut and paste your comments so they can tighten up their game as well.

http://www.the-hit-movie.com/video/park-sample.html

i compressed down so it would only be about 37MB. the clip is only about 3 mins i think.
 
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Well, it's hard to critique a scene out of context, but this one more or less stands alone, so here goes:

1) It felt far too long for the way you've handled it. We're basically listening to nothing but dialogue for several minutes... it gets stale. The actors have no business, no actions. They just sit on the park bench. This seems like the ideal setting for a walk-and-talk, for at least a minute or so of this. It's a dynamic conversation. A lot is on the line. But these guys just sit there.

2) Your editing is a bit rough here and there. There's a handful of cuts that don't match, small things like position of arms and so forth. A bigger problem is your sound - there are lots of edit pops and perspective changes that really need to be evened out. I'm assuming you had no control over the background sound, but I also found the birds to be way too loud.

3) I'm sure you know this but your lighting changes dramatically at least twice. If it were me I'd rather stick with my existing shots than introduce what's obviously a technical glitch. Most of it is overcast but in just a few shots there is bright bright backlight.

4) Your subjects seem underlit overall, like maybe a stop or so below where they should be.

5) Shot choice is all over the place. I count 6 or 7 distinct shots, and at least half of those are really similar to others. The effect is disjointed and feels improvised. That can work if it's a stylistic choice but here I feel like it's conflict with the relatively static, locked-down, restricted setting you've established.

6) I think the performances are for the most part pretty solid. As I said above, I feel like your characters aren't really in the world, exactly, like this park bench is an artificial constraint that's been forced on them, and I feel like that's affecting performance. I also feel like a couple of the lines feel like recital... like maybe the actors weren't quite sure how to get the line across naturally, but stuck with it rather than changing/improvising it to something they could relate to. Does that make sense?

7) Finally, out of context, I really, really, really don't see this guy who's in trouble as a killer. He doesn't look or give that impression at all. It's hard for me to believe this is a serious thing because of that. Like, if I'm this lawyer (I think he was a lawyer?), why would I even ask? I'd never expect him to be capable of it. He looks and sounds like a mild-mannered accountant or something. But I've only seen this one scene. Maybe you've set that up earlier and it's totally believable by now. I'm 100% in favor of seeing people play against type, so if you've done it, kudos.

Anyway, that's what I've got. You asked for tough love so I tried to pretend as if this was something I'd see on during primetime, and judge it on those standards. My advice is to watch a bit of West Wing, a bit of The Wire, and see how those excellent, excellent shows handle keeping long scenes of dialogue interesting.
 
Hello dude:

I believe you made a good job. I do not like the first cut, but I don't why. In any case I consider it's a rough edit that can be better. I like a lot the actors...They are very concentrate and they works in a solid and natural way..well done guys!!! I like the scene too...It could be some static or quiet but without any doubts is very interesting too...
 
dougspice said:
Well, it's hard to critique a scene out of context, but this one more or less stands alone, so here goes:

1) It felt far too long for the way you've handled it. We're basically listening to nothing but dialogue for several minutes... it gets stale. The actors have no business, no actions. They just sit on the park bench. This seems like the ideal setting for a walk-and-talk, for at least a minute or so of this. It's a dynamic conversation. A lot is on the line. But these guys just sit there.
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yea, it was actually a couple of minutes longer before and i just cut 2 mins off of it. i agree though.

2) Your editing is a bit rough here and there. There's a handful of cuts that don't match, small things like position of arms and so forth. A bigger problem is your sound - there are lots of edit pops and perspective changes that really need to be evened out. I'm assuming you had no control over the background sound, but I also found the birds to be way too loud.
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okay i will have another look at that and fix. the street behind us had a lot of trains and loud trucks going by almost every 3 or 4 minutes and i couldnt figure out how to get around that problem. they were loud to the point where my audio was peaking as we were recording. the birds were too loud though?

3) I'm sure you know this but your lighting changes dramatically at least twice. If it were me I'd rather stick with my existing shots than introduce what's obviously a technical glitch. Most of it is overcast but in just a few shots there is bright bright backlight.

4) Your subjects seem underlit overall, like maybe a stop or so below where they should be.
Click to expand...
lighting has been my biggest challenge yet. i tried to underexpose because it was so bright that day and then on top of that the sun kept coming out and then going behind clouds because of the overcast. that bright bright light came out at one point and stayed that way for a while. i thought i could fix it in post. i was wrong.

5) Shot choice is all over the place. I count 6 or 7 distinct shots, and at least half of those are really similar to others. The effect is disjointed and feels improvised. That can work if it's a stylistic choice but here I feel like it's conflict with the relatively static, locked-down, restricted setting you've established.
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yea i agree after reading your comments..

6) I think the performances are for the most part pretty solid. As I said above, I feel like your characters aren't really in the world, exactly, like this park bench is an artificial constraint that's been forced on them, and I feel like that's affecting performance. I also feel like a couple of the lines feel like recital... like maybe the actors weren't quite sure how to get the line across naturally, but stuck with it rather than changing/improvising it to something they could relate to. Does that make sense?
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that makes sense but do you remember what lines or what they were talking about that sounded like they were reciting?

7) Finally, out of context, I really, really, really don't see this guy who's in trouble as a killer. He doesn't look or give that impression at all. It's hard for me to believe this is a serious thing because of that. Like, if I'm this lawyer (I think he was a lawyer?), why would I even ask? I'd never expect him to be capable of it. He looks and sounds like a mild-mannered accountant or something. But I've only seen this one scene. Maybe you've set that up earlier and it's totally believable by now. I'm 100% in favor of seeing people play against type, so if you've done it, kudos.
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yea, i've cut some stuff out and it is apparent in another scene after this. the blond hair guy is being offered a chance at his freedom in exchange for commiting a crime. to kill someone for this crooked lawyer who in turn actually tuns out not to be a lawyer in the end. the story stops on a cliffhanger from there after the blond haired guy makes his decision.

Anyway, that's what I've got. You asked for tough love so I tried to pretend as if this was something I'd see on during primetime, and judge it on those standards. My advice is to watch a bit of West Wing, a bit of The Wire, and see how those excellent, excellent shows handle keeping long scenes of dialogue interesting.
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no, i appreciate it for the comments. i plan on doig more/different short films until it's tight.
 
Deparon said:
Hello dude:

I believe you made a good job. I do not like the first cut, but I don't why. In any case I consider it's a rough edit that can be better. I like a lot the actors...They are very concentrate and they works in a solid and natural way..well done guys!!! I like the scene too...It could be some static or quiet but without any doubts is very interesting too...
Click to expand...

hey thanx, i appreciate it man
 
I agree with much of what dougspice said particularly the sound. The ambient sound was considerably loud (birds included). It kind of got distracting and took away from the conversation.
 
You've got some good advice on here. A nitpick, but make sure your frame is level (or consistent at least). Your front-on 2 shot at 1.21 leans one way, and the same shot leans the other at 3.18.
 
Man... Dougspice said almost everything that I was thinking in a precise and well thought out and constructive way. Doug, you have some chops! I'll have to get you to review my stuff next time. This is some great advice!


To add to this the couple of things that I noticed and Doug stated was how it seemed restrained. This would have been much more interesting and real world if they were walking along during this speech... With interaction and people along the way to interact with. You have to give actors something to do. That's the first thing I learned as an actor. The 2nd was to give an actor a specific amount of time to get it done.. and usually it should be a tight piece of time as most actors will over belaybor beats and everything else.. That was my 1st additional point.

2nd as mentioned. The ambient audio is distracting and you did a nice job coving it up.. but it's too much.


Lastly.. the editing doesn't seem motivated. Just jumps for no reason at some spots and there's almost a jump cut when you cut on axis to a clip that isn't dissimilar enough. Usually atleast a 30 degree change is necessary. I know Rules to be broken.


Was ambitioous piece. The acting isn't bad.. a bit stilted because this is hard to put on people... Even Scorcese would have had a hardtime just on that bench scene too.


Hope this helps and good luck.
 
dialogue lacking

dialogue lacking

Two things really stuck out.

The age of the actor (unwilling assasin) seems too young for the role he plays, and the dialogue was so OTN.

Also, as mentioned, out of context viewing is difficult at best, but as seen, your problems probabaly start at the script level.

Thanks for sharing your work!

A
 
If you look at the bench scene in JFK between Costner and Sutherland you will see a good way to shoot such a scene. Stone uses music and cuts in other footage to keep the viewer interested. Different context but a very similar thing to what you are trying to do here. Probably need to add in some type of background music soundtrack and try to further suppress the ambient sound. Also, maybe add other cuts in there between going back and forth from each actors point of view.
 
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yea, as far as the sound i was actually using an indoor mic because i didnt have a shotgun mic at the time so thats why it picked up so much ambience. i really noticed that when i got in post and the meters were almost peaking.

@ alex - i agree with your comment. looking at it now i feel like i could have got to the point in this scene in less time on the script.
 
just watched it.

acting was decent, better on the mafia like guy than the supposed hit man. Lighting was a bit strange at some points as it didn't seem consistan. First we have a strong backlight, then we dont. Might suggest next time to bring some foam core or bounce board to get some of that light back in the faces and even out the image some.

cut out the ambient sounds slightly as it hugely distracts from the dialogue. Your ratio there is too high.

music would hugely add to this scene.

Not a huge fan of hte angles tho. I really liked the close up of mafia boy. Do you have more single shots? I found the double shots came too often and killed the dynamics of the scene.

It was a tad too long for my taste. Maybe cut down some of the extra dialogue?

not bad
 
Lots of great advice.

Agree with most of what others say, especially dougspice run down. What
I don't agree on is the acting. Not that they can't act but rather the director didn't get the best performance.

Here's mine, some already mentioned.

-The music at the end should have been over the entire scene.
-The sound has been mentioned but I wouldn't have even shot this w/o an shotgun.
-The park bench doesn't fit the scene at all. A dark alley, in a car maybe to better capture some shadow detail.
-To much dialogue from the mafia guy - less is more here as this can imply that the hit man is worried as hell that what will happen if he doesn't do it.
- You need some movement from the actors, nervous tension, but only on the man asked to do the hit. The nervousness of this type of scene was not exposed.
-The mafia guy didn't look once over his left shoulder or behind him. Whos watching?
-To much eye contact, they aren't dating - they should barely be looking at each other but rather their surroundings.
-Show some cutaways to what is around them.
-The hit man's fiancee reference is weak, I'd use recently married and expecting ---then show some kids playing at the park as the hitman ponders.
-Mafia guy asking for a hit - Wheres the nonchalant pat down for a wire?
-Get closeup on hit man to show tension of what the mafia guy asked him to do.
-Handing a "yellow" piece of paper with an address, better to use white paper and have it burnt after the hit man eyes it for 5 seconds.

Hope this helps you.
 
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Heh, glad people liked my advice. I think Justyn expanded on what I said to produce a nice idea: if they were walking through the park and occasionally had to pass others walking past, it would provide a nice ebb and flow to the scene, and a nice glimpse of character. When a stranger is nearby, do they lower their voices, go totally quiet, or keep talking like it's no big deal? It would be interesting to see, and give us a much better sense of who these people really are rather than simply trusting their words.

As for specific lines I thought felt forced... it's hard to say. I rewatch it and don't react to the same exact things the same way the second time. The best I can say is that towards the beginning I'm thinking, "Oh, another movie about guys who get roped into pulling off the perfect murder". It's a popular theme, right? As the scene unfolded, I think yours is written and performed a bit better than most of these things I've seen, but it was still burdened by those sort of expectations. Does that make sense?
 
What's the status of your project now Doug? Would be great to check out some of it when you get it together...



This thread is a good example of the worth of DVXuser and people posting constructive feedback..
 
James, I remember the last time you posted this scene. It was set in a room correct?
I think one of the points I made then was to let the actor get up and move around. If I remember, the supposed hit man is an average Joe that has a DUI case pending. Put yourself in that guys shoes. Would you just sit there if some attorney you went to for help, said he could have your case dropped, if you killed someone for him? Again when the guy goes to get up, you have the attorney hold him back. Let him get up and walk off. Have the attorney follow him, have the average Joe tell him to F*%k off, make it more believable. The guy should be furious, maybe even threaten to go to the police, what is it that's stopping him? If you really want to sell the scene you have to make it more natural and believable. There's been a lot of good advice given here already, so if you do shoot this again, take a lot of it in.
BTW I think your re-cast is a better choice, just give him some good direction.
Good luck.
 
ozduc said:
James, I remember the last time you posted this scene. It was set in a room correct?
I think one of the points I made then was to let the actor get up and move around. If I remember, the supposed hit man is an average Joe that has a DUI case pending. Put yourself in that guys shoes. Would you just sit there if some attorney you went to for help, said he could have your case dropped, if you killed someone for him? Again when the guy goes to get up, you have the attorney hold him back. Let him get up and walk off. Have the attorney follow him, have the average Joe tell him to F*%k off, make it more believable. The guy should be furious, maybe even threaten to go to the police, what is it that's stopping him? If you really want to sell the scene you have to make it more natural and believable. There's been a lot of good advice given here already, so if you do shoot this again, take a lot of it in.
BTW I think your re-cast is a better choice, just give him some good direction.
Good luck.
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yea man. i rember what you said last time. by the time we actually got this new guy and new location, etc i think i was so caught up in trying to get better audio, lighting, etc that i forgot. i would ask them to redo it again with, but for the lawyer/maobb guy this would be his 3rd time or so redoing it and right now he's been a good sport and i want to use him for my next short which will be shorter and he's cool with it.

the best thing i like about these actors is that they were totally understanding and cool about the fact that i let them know up front i'm new at this and a lot of things i'll be learning the for the first time. i'm going to take these suggestions and also apply them to the next short.
 
PaPa said:
just watched it.

acting was decent, better on the mafia like guy than the supposed hit man. Lighting was a bit strange at some points as it didn't seem consistan. First we have a strong backlight, then we dont. Might suggest next time to bring some foam core or bounce board to get some of that light back in the faces and even out the image some.

cut out the ambient sounds slightly as it hugely distracts from the dialogue. Your ratio there is too high.

music would hugely add to this scene.

Not a huge fan of hte angles tho. I really liked the close up of mafia boy. Do you have more single shots? I found the double shots came too often and killed the dynamics of the scene.

It was a tad too long for my taste. Maybe cut down some of the extra dialogue?

not bad
Click to expand...

yea, i am going to look into getting a bounce board or something....anybody have a link or something on how to use it effectively? just use a white construction board with foil on it and angle it at them? i've seen it done briefly in some photos but didnt get it.

as far as it being too long i have been trying to figure out if there is some kinda creative way i can maybe have the other three scenes play out fully (about 2 mins a piece) and use parts of this park scene as a flash back sequence so people kinda figure out whats going on as the story moves forward....i was trying to find some movies that use this technique efffectively though before i do it.
 
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