The future of HVX

it may actually be cleaner.... maybe not sharper, but possibly cleaner. Which honestly, is great.

Every HD film ive watched on HBO-HD hasnt been that "sharp", but the picture is organic and CLEAN CLEAN CLEAN. Hopefully the HPX500 will give similar results.

Iwonder if the RED camera buzz, (not the camera, but the buzz) has lit a fire under the ass of Braodcast manufacturers to offer 2/3" HD cameras for under 16,000$
 
TimurCivan said:
it may actually be cleaner.... maybe not sharper, but possibly cleaner. Which honestly, is great.

Every HD film ive watched on HBO-HD hasnt been that "sharp", but the picture is organic and CLEAN CLEAN CLEAN. Hopefully the HPX500 will give similar results.

Iwonder if the RED camera buzz, (not the camera, but the buzz) has lit a fire under the ass of Braodcast manufacturers to offer 2/3" HD cameras for under 16,000$
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...Exactly what i think, the HPX500 may be cleaner than the HPX2000.

AND...The images from RED ONE are extremely clean.
 
well the HPX500 is out already isnt it? so it sgot a jump on the "post RED market" And i think most people arent ready for 4k work flow except for the very tippy top .01% of video producers. So 1080P is till good enough for most people so it has what could be a very nice little run here. If i could afford it i would have bought it.
 
Barry_Green said:
8 weeks. HPX500. 2/3" HVX with interchangeable lenses.
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Thanks for the answer btw Barry.

HPX is high on my radar right now. Ill be looking at it seriously toward the end of the year.

TimurCivan said:
Iwonder if the RED camera buzz, (not the camera, but the buzz) has lit a fire under the ass of Braodcast manufacturers to offer 2/3" HD cameras for under 16,000$
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Thats my hope.
 
TimurCivan said:
well the HPX500 is out already isnt it? so it sgot a jump on the "post RED market" And i think most people arent ready for 4k work flow except for the very tippy top .01% of video producers. So 1080P is till good enough for most people so it has what could be a very nice little run here. If i could afford it i would have bought it.
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RED's thing is about obsolescence, though. Sure, might not be ready for a 4k workflow now... so you shoot 1080p til you ARE ready. Then when you're ready to move to 2k... well hey, you already have the camera. 4k? Let's do it.

HPX500 isn't that flexible, meaning you'd have to sell and rebuy, sell and rebuy. Just like a lot of us might sell our HVX's if something better hits the market for about the same price-range.
 
I don't understand this 4K buzz going round regarding RED. Having worked in post-production for 10 years with 2k dpx/Cineon frames, and having seen 4k comparison screened occasionally for maybe a 5% difference in quality, I don't understand why people want to suddenly shift 4 times the data around, 4 times the storage etc.
And having been pixel-f*cked by producers/supervisors with dailies on projectors (and now 2K playback systems) on a frame-by-frame basis, I can't think of a worst nightmare in post than having to deal with 4K and an anal supervisor.
 
WEll its not really ment for people who own HVX's and are shooting videos for local bands, local commericals, and low budget features. The Red is a BIG ball of Wax. it smen tfor the big boys who have acess to REAL workflow solutions. thats my opinion about it. just like i really dont think i could hande a Cinealta, even if it were $17,000. the post prodution is the problem. not the camera. Edit: i agree with electric pig.
 
I agree with Kholi.

Unlike a CineAlta, RED doesn't need a 100K deck etc...

The Redcode (codec) seems to be very efficient, it will run on a reasonably powerfull computer.
You can downconvert almost to wathever format you want.
But you always keep your original 4K original data.

It seems to be a MUCH higher quality image at an unprecedent quality/price ratio.

It's a totally different beast.
It will shake the industry a lot, maybe not the HVX market, but the high-end market for sure.
 
Some refreshingly astute observations on this thread, especially from Daygola.

What I hope is that the Red and the HV20 serve to refine the nitch that the HVX lives in. It's an important nitch and one that I think most members of DVXuser are in. Here are some of my observations about the nitch—see if y'all agree:

The Red user will have an external monitor of some kind. The HV20 user won't. The HVX user is right in-between. Solution? Put a really good 720p flip-out on the HVX and give it some pro-ish features like image flip and a built-in waveform.

Relatedly: The red user has a 35mm-sized chip. The HV20 user is not likely to consider a 35mm lens adaptor, but the HVX user is. Recognzise this and don't punish the HVX owner for it—give us some better mounting points and the ability to lock the focus ring electronically, in adition to the LCD flip.

24p is king. The Red user expects to shoot 24p to some data format, the HV20 user will be happy with tape (and the PITA of removing pulldown in post). The HVX user should expect to be able to record 720p24N directly to disk over FireWire.

Resolution. While 720p is a prefectly resonable HD format for this nitch, that's only true if it's a really good 720p. The HVX isn't the sharpest shooter on the block, especially not at 1080, but even at 720. The next HVX really needs to make an competitive 720p image at the very least—1080p24N would be even better.

All these things seem reasobale for a next-gen P2 camera with a price similar to what the HVX launched at.

Thoughts?

-Stu
 
the HVX hasn't even reached it's full potential yet. the current HVX will thrive in the future. I love this camera because of it's versatility, not that it can shoot HD. I have very few HD clients at this point. 80% of my shooting is SD, usually mini DV. but do you realize how much miniDV you can fit on a P2 Card, even a 4GB? P2 is such a beautiful format to shoot on, and i don't shoot on tapes anymore, regardless of HD vs SD. as more and more demand comes for HD, i'll still have the same camera. this is probably the same camera I'll use for the next 5- 7 yrs.
 
ProLost said:
Resolution. While 720p is a prefectly resonable HD format for this nitch, that's only true if it's a really good 720p. The HVX isn't the sharpest shooter on the block, especially not at 1080, but even at 720. The next HVX really needs to make an competitive 720p image at the very least—1080p24N would be even better.



Thoughts?

-Stu
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i still think many people havent tapped their hvx,s potential. belive me. i run footage past ad execs, commercial directors, as well as many video artists... not one has said "its soft". they just say "how much doees itcost?!?!?"
 
All very interesting

All very interesting

Well, this has certianly been very interesting for me. Lots of interesting opinions and such.

I JUST got to try out my HVX200. It was in the box while I was ill for quite a while. Now I'm recovered it was quite a gift to be able to take it out of the box. I couldn't help but notice how much sharper it is @ 720p than the DVX is at 480p.

I imagine (and will find out tomorrow) that 1080p on the HVX will have the same sharpness as the DVX in its native rez.

Considering that... I think this is an incredibly amazing cam. Actually using it really taught me that the HVX is NOT in competition with RED. Red weighs more, will require more crew/effort to get a decent picture.

HVX is a bit more difficult to get a usable image than the DVX. More precise focus, and scene files have a more dramatic impact for the most part. It's also very heavy for its size. (Good in my opinion!)

But RED weighing even more will limit it for some applications; move it to another price range for steadycam solutions. It's just going to be plain old more cumbersome for smaller crews, and therefore a tradeoff. I think RED will be an amazing camera, but I think the HVX will satisfy my needs AND THEN SOME, for a long time before I will need to consider RED. I'm quite enthralled with it, and imagine I'll pull an even better picture with some practice.

I do wonder if Panasonic will try to come up with something to compete with the RED. I'll be really interested to see that, since they seem to dominate the value oriented segment of the market.

Last but not least there is something to be said for a 3ccd system versus a 1-chip cam no matter how good the bayer pattern DSP implement is. (A small consideration.)

- Alex
 
TimurCivan said:
Iwonder if the RED camera buzz, (not the camera, but the buzz) has lit a fire under the ass of Braodcast manufacturers to offer 2/3" HD cameras for under 16,000$
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Not at all. We do not see the Red camera as a competitive product to this product line. By the time you get lenses, recording capability etc attached to the red, it will significatly cost more than the HPX500 will with its lens packages. There has always been on the internal roadmap this camera, way before Red was a twinkle in Jim's eye.

Best,

Jan
 
Oh ok Cool. thank jan!

in two years i will seriously consider a HPX500/Equivalent. But your HVX 200 is more camera than i can even handle right now. So i will sit quietly. :)
 
Good to see you here Jan! Glad to know that you're listening to feedback about the HVX200. I love the HVX and refer to it often in the Rebel's Guide. I hope my comments and those of the others here can help shape the future of this great camera.

-Stu
 
Barry_Green said:
RED's going to eat the VariCam's lunch, and have the CineAlta F900 for dinner, and drink XDCAM-HD as far as independent owner-operators go. Not that much impact on the HVX.

RED isn't really a mass-market item, but the HVX kind of is. People are stretching to be able to afford an HVX.

The one that's going to impact HVX sales is the little HV20. Not that it'll be a better camera or anything, I mean, let's be real: it's a $1099 consumer camera; it's priced at that level for some good reasons. But there are so many aspiring filmmakers who are stretching so far, paying more than they possibly can afford just to get an HVX or DVX or something... $1099 is almost free. Even if the HV20 sucks like a Hoover vacuum cleaner, people will still flock to it because they can afford it.

I think the HV20 has the potential to seriously open up the playing field for so many to whom $5,000 was a pipe dream. Five grand is a lot of money, a prohibitive amount of money, for a lot of people. A thousand bucks? You can make that in a month at even a minimum wage job if necessary, so it's within reach of everyone.

And even forget HD: the HV20 becomes the cheapest 24p camera on the market by a country mile. The DVX has been the cheapest 24p cam, at about $2900 (after rebate). The HV20 slashes that price of entry... pulverizes it. Murders it. Obliterates it. They're already talking about a street price under a grand.

If its footage is mediocre, it'll be a massive hit. If its footage is good? Smash hit. Even with HDV, even with being a one-chip, even without the ability to set iris and shutter at the same time. The price point is phenomenal.

Now, with all that said, will it have that much impact on the HVX? No, not really; someone shopping for a top-of-the-line 1/3" camcorder with variable-frame-rates, solid-state recording, 4:2:2 color, frame-discrete compression, 4 channels of uncompressed audio, etc. is not likely going to say "y'know what, let's instead get a $1099 pocket-cam." Different customers entirely. But for those who probably were overextending themselves to get an HVX in the first place, I predict they'll flock to the HV20. The price point is irresistible; it almost doesn't matter how the camcorder performs. I expect it to perform well, but performance is almost irrelevant. If DVX100 films can get back-to-back Academy Award nominations, I expect the HV20 to be "good enough" no matter how good (or not good) it may end up being. On top of all that, I expect it to look good too!

RED will change the game at the top end. HV20 revolutionizes it on the bottom end. HVX customers will still be HVX customers in the middle, I don't see much of a change there (among customers who would normally, properly be buying the product that they need; among customers who shouldn't have been overextending themselves, that's a different story).
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I completely agree Barry. The reason the dvx was such a big deal was because it was the 1st mini dv camera to offer 24p. Other companies then started offering 24p, or 24fps. Now Cannon has decided to follow suit with a the 1st consumer dv camera to offer 24p. Hopefully the camera will sell well and we'll see more consumer cameras offering 24p as an option--maybe even an AVC camera with 24p capability.

I love my HVX, but to use it in HD, you need to spend more than $5000. You need an HD monitor (which I'm still saving for), a couple of p2 cards, and you also need something to offload the p2 footage onto when shooting in the field (although with the higher gig p2 cards, you may soon be able to shoot in the field and offload when you get back home or to the office). This means spending a couple of thousand above and beyond the $5000.00 for the camera. So, with all this in mind, I COMPLETELY agree with you on people flocking to the HV20.
 
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JAN! OMG. I can't believe how long this thread has gone, and how many great people it has attracted.

To think I debated even posting in the first place.

Anyway...

I just saw apocalypto (I know he's an anti-semite, and my dad would kill me, but I wanted to see it), which was shot on the Genesis. I thought it looked terrible, so many scenes had blowouts (does panavision even have zebras?), not to mention I thought the movie was lame. I liked the Passion alot, but this looked like home or news VIDEO, albeit very good video. I think the most dissapointing part of the genesis in apocalypto was the motion blur. The motion looked much more like video than film.

I looked up the pixel binning system the Genesis uses, and it occured to me that all of these cameras are very different, and subsequently look very different. For instance, the HVX blended very well into the departed. If they used the genesis, it may not have matched so seemlessly.

Jan, I specifically have a question for you. Actually I guess it's a question for everyone (if this has been asked already I apologize)...

Okay, lets say you had a good budget for a film, so that wasn't an issue (even like 200,000 thousand... small by hollywood standards). What would be the reasons to choose an HVX over a RED in that situation? I'm sure there have to be some.

Also, I'm curious about people's opinions about 3CCD versus 1chip-CMOS/Bayer in terms of color reproduction.

BTW Jan, the whole indie community owes you and Panasonic a great deal. I wish you guys the best. I guess the reason I'm so concerned about all of this is because I've really become a Panasonic fanboy, and should the time come in the next five years that I need 2k, I'd like to stick with panny. I guess for me it's a level of comfort I've become accustomed to. I'm always of the mind that the proof is in the pudding when it comes to cameras. I think it was daring to use 960 x 540 chips in the hvx. Not great for marketing's sake, but in the end it led to an amazing image.

Thanks a bunch. You're all awesome. This forum rocks!
 
$200,000 could go quite a long way by using the P2 workflow and some inexpensive accessories (ie. $500 Redrockmicro Mattebox instead of a Vocas or some $1,500+ mattebox). Here's some pros for the HVX-route:

1) Hiring better quality actors

2) Allowing a bigger budget for more effects equipment (ie. sophisticated crane shots/Steadicam work/ect.)

3) Bigger budget for advertising

4) More money for locations

5) Bigger budget for costumes

6) More post time

7) More doughnuts and coffee for the cast and crew

There's a number of things a few extra thousand could save on a production. But on the camera itself:

1) Lighter camera for easier/cheaper Steadicam work (I say cheaper because you can do a lot with a lower end Steadicam rig and the HVX200 versus having to shell out for the top of the line Steadicam kit)

2) Everything's included (lense, LCD, viewfinder, a microphone, and a battery)

3) Variable framerates on a budget, and high quality too :)

4) Practically uncompressed (DVCPROHD blows HDV out of the water in so many ways)

5) Wide NLE support for DVCPROHD

Now when you saddle up to the RED, you're either going for a better picture, more special effects, or more importantly, the ultimate bang for your buck deal. What the RED will get you is:

1) Ulitmately superior effects scale (720p vs. 4K, no contest) [depending on the movie you're making]

2) Literally bigger picture for a better blowup to film or 4K projection and downscale to DVD or Bluray

3) Better light handeling through combination of sensor and optics

4) Cheaper media options (but this can be traded off for a cheaper camera so this is about equal really in the grand scheme of things)

5) More variable framerates, unless you want to kill the warranty on your HVX200 and enable that framerate mod

6) At the very least, higher quality 1080p, and if you really have to squeeze pennies, maybe better 720p too. (Just to make clear, they've yet to show native 720p and 1080p stuff, everything shown so far has been scaled from 4K)

7) Higher production value

8) 35mm-like DOF without the need for an adapter

9) Compatibility with still photography lenses for low budget filmmakers

Then that's about it.


Really, I would be happy with either option. In fact, my brother and I were planning to buy an HVX200 and deck it out with all the fixings, but then the RED came a knockin' and we couldn't resist the possibilities, especially since we want to do lots of green/bluescreen effects work (think "300"-level) and even though some people are doing great work with the HVX200 (take a look at the "Midnight Chronicles" thread), we just couldn't resist the added benefit of having 4K at this early point in our lives (we're juniors in college now, waiting to get out and go to film school). The RED would just carry over a lot longer than an HVX200 would in our situation.

I hope the HVX200 has a long life and P2 excels, especially now that that Expresscard converter came out. Even better, I can't wait to see what Panasonic does to build on the success of the HVX200 over time.
 
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