The future of HVX

Barry_Green said:
I may pick up an HV20 as well. A tiny pocket-cam could come in handy in many circumstances. While the HVX is a "small cam", it's still relatively huge and while it's cheap enough to use as a "crash cam" compared to the RED, I'd much rather use a $999 HV20 as a "crash cam" than a $6,000 HVX. Different tools for different applications.
Click to expand...
My game plan is simple, and will involve all three of these cameras... The HVX and related projects made the cash to buy my RED and accessories, which I will then sell to buy a HV20 as soon as RED is in hand. I want the best digital cinema camera in the world, AND a glorified home movie camera that shoots nice HD progressive on 4 dollar tapes... basically, I want top end and bottom end... and don't see a future place in my work for the middle ground the HVX lives in at that point...
 
The HV20 may just end up being a perfect adapter cam for the budget minded DOF seeker. None of these small cams need an achromat on the adapter and can be mounted inverted for a cheap flip too. We're definitely bringing one in for testing.
 
Dennis Wood said:
The HV20 may just end up being a perfect adapter cam for the budget minded DOF seeker. None of these small cams need an achromat on the adapter and can be mounted inverted for a cheap flip too. We're definitely bringing one in for testing.
Click to expand...
Why no need for the achromat? Or is that just a thought? What'd be the difference between using one and excluding one? Just as well, s'at mean that you could use SD Adapters and get the exact same results?
 
Dennis Wood said:
The HV20 may just end up being a perfect adapter cam for the budget minded DOF seeker. None of these small cams need an achromat on the adapter and can be mounted inverted for a cheap flip too. We're definitely bringing one in for testing.
Click to expand...

Dennis

I hope you find the HV20 compatable with your adapter. Please keep us informed................... :Drogar-Happy(DBG):.

thread hyjack off
JohnG
 
From the DOF perspective, the RED project represents the 35mm film equivalent, but if it's shooting to a 16x22 frame size, an adapter may still be capable of shallower DOF, particulary shooting a 24mmx36mm frame. RED's resolution will be great for film-out, but I'm guessing that the majority of work out there will still be viewed on 1920x1080 displays for some time. I can't see HVX - class cams going anywhere in the near future. Smaller chip cams will always suffer with respect to light efficiency...

The HVX in my opinion is the best adapter cam for the Brevis out there. I have an XH-A1, but the blue/yellow fringing thing is really bugging me, and the HVX seems much cleaner in those respects. If I could work with the P2 workflow on extended remote shoots, I'd already have one.

The HV20, like all small cams (43mm filter threads or less), will almost certainly not need extra help from an achromat to frame/focus the imaging element in our application. This does not mean it will work like that in any other application, nor would you be able to use an SD-only capable adapter with it.
 
Dennis,

The HV20 + Brevis35 idea is intriguing to me. I would imagine that it would need a spacer ring becuase it's focal distance can't be as wide-range as the HVX (which is almost microscopic it can focus so close). What would it take to equip the HV20 with a Brevis35? I know you don't have one yet, and thus won't be able to answer for certain, but given your best information, do you think it's possible?

I'm planning on getting the HV20 for myself for just a family camcorder capable of HDV and 24p. Odds are it won't get used on many serious projects, but it would be fun to have a 35mm adapter for it--just for goofing off.

Thanks in advance.
 
All that the small Sony HD cams have needed is a step up ring, that's it. I'm guessing the HV20 will be the same. Our rails are already set up for upside down mounting these cams...so it will be a cheap HD/DOF/flip solution :-)
 
Actually, I think the RED will help HVX sales. Whilst the RED will shoot much better footage, the HVX is the only camera with similar features (proper fully implemented tapeless workflow, variable frame rates etc). All the competition begins to look a bit dated, recording a fixed speed image to DV tape. So in cash terms, the HVX can do the same thing, albeit not quite as well, for 20% of the cost.

Another thing the RED may help is P2 prices. Their flash system is considerably cheaper per GB when compared to P2. Wake up Panny, time to slash P2 prices...
 
evilken said:
Actually, I think the RED will help HVX sales. Whilst the RED will shoot much better footage, the HVX is the only camera with similar features...
Click to expand...

That's an interesting perspective and probably right on the money.
Obviously the HVX has taken on the next gen workflow while allowing yesterdays tape option as well.
The HVX was an excellent "merge" into HD option that I'll probably keep around long after I buy upwards.

Too bad for all those who jumped into HDV! :(
Just kidding guys, don't flame me. :)
 
evilken said:
Actually, I think the RED will help HVX sales. Whilst the RED will shoot much better footage, the HVX is the only camera with similar features (proper fully implemented tapeless workflow, variable frame rates etc). All the competition begins to look a bit dated, recording a fixed speed image to DV tape. So in cash terms, the HVX can do the same thing, albeit not quite as well, for 20% of the cost.
Click to expand...
Very excellent perspective. I agree across the board, which is why the RED was so appealing to us at DVXUser and why Jarred jumped on the bandwagon so quickly. It's like the RED is a super-turbo HVX, a spiritual descendant of the original DVX (which isn't all that surprising, seeing as Stuart English, the father of the DVX, is a core team member of RED).

Another thing the RED may help is P2 prices. Their flash system is considerably cheaper per GB when compared to P2. Wake up Panny, time to slash P2 prices...
Click to expand...
Is it? Really? They list two options: RED RAM, 64GB for $4500; and RED SATA FLASH, 32GB for $1500. Neither is on the market yet, so by the time they are, what will Panasonic's prices be? We've already been told that 32GB P2 cards will be introduced at under $1,000 at the end of the year; that's 33% less expensive than RED's.

Now, surely someone will point out that 32GB P2 cards aren't on the market; neither is RED's. All I'm saying is: by the time RED's memory hits the market, it will probably be priced about the same as the prevailing P2 price at that time. :thumbsup:
 
Barry.... Tell me more about Grandpa Stuart and how he made the DVX...... (little kid voice)

But seriosuly, whats the deal, he just woke up one day and said, thats it, im bringin 24P to the masses? Also, what of the quantum leap in image quality? the dynamic range, color accuracy, highlight handling... all that stuff that made the DVX100 what it is. Why did the comapny and the designers decide to pack so much in to so little??? (and the tradition contnues with the HVX200... offering so much!!!! for comparitivly little money)
 
It was almost sort of like that. Back in 2000 or so, Stuart English was the VP of Panasonic Broadcast, and Jan Crittenden was the product line business manager over several of Panasonic's broadcast cams. And they both started visiting forums; I remember first encountering them on DV-L which, at the time, was really the leading edge of discussion for the new DV format. We couldn't believe we could have access to people at their level; no manufacturer had ever (AFAIK) deigned to talk to the lowly "users." But Jan and her boss, Stuart, did. Nearly every day. They'd ask what we were doing, what we wanted, how we wanted things to work, etc. We screamed at 'em about how they blew the original implementation of DVCPRO (not firewire compatible with DV) and we yelled at 'em about their first 3-chip DV camcorder (no manual audio control, no firewire port at all!) Panasonic was a total also-ran in those days, we lived and breathed the Sony VX1000. But they stuck with us and kept asking us what we wanted, what we'd do with it, etc. We told them we wanted 24p, we wanted a filmlike look, we wanted a film camera but without the film expenses.

And they made the DVX.

And it was the biggest hit in Panasonic's history.

Stuart left the company before the HVX came out; we didn't necessarily know why, but I guess now we do. So Jan continues on in Panasonic and gives us the HVX and the HPX500, and meanwhile Stuart is helping bring out the RED ONE.

And what of Sony, the guys who gave us that first, amazing VX1000, and invented 24p with the F900? Larry Thorpe, who spent something like 22 years at Sony Broadcast during those days, is long gone. Sony hasn't delivered an outright winner since the PD150; the last big seller they put out was the FX1, released in 2004. Larry Thorpe left in 2004, and moved on to a new company: Canon. And now Canon's coming out with the XHA1 and HV20, products with lots of buzz, products that bring to the consumer what they want. Coincidence? I think not. :)

(and yes, of course there are hundreds of people, if not thousands of people, who are also responsible for all these great products. But it all starts at the top, the vision has to be there in the first place. These people have all had big roles in making visionary things happen, IMO).
 
Last edited:
very interesting barry, I had no knowledge of that information. Kudos to Jan. I had no idea she was central in all this.

The other mystery in the story of modern cameras is what happened to poor Ikegami? I've heard that their engineers went to Panny when the SDX was invented - any truth to that?

Lenny Levy
 
Thanks for the history lesson, Barry. I've been around awhile, but I didn't know how the mighty DVX came to be. Interesting, how a few intelligent people (who are also smart enough to listen to users) can change everything. Stuart English, Jan Crittenden, and Larry Thorpe are names I knew, but I didn't know how much we owed them.

Sony does seem lost to me - with the recent bungles. I am interested in the rumored upcoming Z2, but without someone like Larry Thorpe, I wonder if it'll be another "oil-paint, crawling ant noise, line-twittering" bungle, like the V1. Didn't someone at Sony think about putting a thin-med-thick V Detail control on the V1? Panasonic's been doing it for years - didn't anyone at Sony notice and wonder why?
 
but thoes things dont seem obvious? i keep saying i think a 1 chip cmos 2/3" HVX style cam would be a big winner.
 
It's already there! Its name is Panasonic DMC-LX2K and you can buy it for 499 bucks. This is half thong in cheek but that baby has a nearly 2/3" sensor and records 720p. Quite close to a REAL camera with such features. My personal bet: soon we well see a Mini-Red from some digital still producer. 1080p, big sensor (though not 35mm) interchangeable (still-) lenses. Canon maybe? They wouldn't hurt their upper class like Panasonic with their Varicam or their HDXs.
 
joe 1008 said:
It's already there! Its name is Panasonic DMC-LX2K and you can buy it for 499 bucks. This is half thong in cheek but that baby has a nearly 2/3" sensor and records 720p. Quite close to a REAL camera with such features. My personal bet: soon we well see a Mini-Red from some digital still producer. 1080p, big sensor (though not 35mm) interchangeable (still-) lenses. Canon maybe? They wouldn't hurt their upper class like Panasonic with their Varicam or their HDXs.
Click to expand...

15 FPS (at full res) isn't really practical for most video uses. That being said, I DO agree that we'll see 'merged' products (hybrid still cameras/camcorders) that will compete reasonably well in a year or two. It's up to Pani , Canon, and Sony how fast this hybridization happens.

Regards
JohnG
 
How cool would it be to shoot uncompressed out of the HDMI output of the HV20!

Let's hope for a HDMI laptop capture card.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top