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filmtovideo

filmtovideo

Well-known member
I saw this elsewhere:

"4:3 SD (i.e. the DVX100) is 720x525 (NTSC) or 720x625 (PAL) lines. To achieve 16:9, it crops or squeezes the image into 720x480 lines
Therefore when shooting 16:9 on the DVX100a, you might lose anywhere between 45 - 145 horizontal resolution lines, depending whether you're shooting NTSC or PAl.

you will still have to make a subjective call about whether you are happy with the resolution loss. "

Do you know if this is the same as the 'squeeze" mode on the Panasonic
Dv-30?

Also, the DV-30 has a letterbox mode. I've heard conflicting opinions on
whether letterbox is superior or inferior to adding letterbox in post based
on people saying that letterbox wastes pixels or uses pixels more effectively.

I don't know what to think.

Also, I read:

"Another option is to shoot 4:3 (full resolution) and the up-rez the footage to 16:9. There are a couple of fairly good programs that do this. (Photozoom, Instant HD...)"

If letterbox works, why would you do this? I use the DV-30 and the HVX-200
but I haven't used the DVX so I don't know if it has "letterbox" mode. I like
the DV-30 but wonder about the best way to get a widescreen look without
a native 16x9 chip.

Thanks.
 
I don't know about the DVC-30, I would imagine it is the same as the DVX, but that is purely specualtion.

Having shot with my DVX and wanting a 16:9 look, IMO it is best to shoot normal 4:3 (unsqueezed and with no in camera letterboxing) and then add bars in post. Some edits might be a little tricky, but you always have the option of showing more of the top or bottom of your frame when you need to, since you shot it full frame and didn't use the camera's LB to cover it up.

I think whether you're using squeeze or LB, you would be throwing pixels away one way or another....

Have you looked into something like an anamorphic adapter for your DVC-30?
 
SD digital video picture size is 720*576 PAL or 720*480 NTSC no matter what kind of chip camera has, that is what is put on tape. Always, either 4:3 or 16:9 or letterbox (which is 4:3 and the file has no clue. Widescreen is flagged as such on the file).

DVX100 has (more or less) "native" 4:3 sensor. When shooting letterbox a considerable part of top and bottom pixels are not recorded on tape, but replaced with black. Or, to be more precise, they are recorded as black. Only about 720*3xx pixels are used for the image.

With squeeze mode the same central strip pixels are used to record the picture, true resolution is the same 720*3xx, but then the picture is uprezzed in camera vertically to make it full size DV 16:9 format, where the pixel count is the same as in 4:3 but pixels are rectacular.

The fact is that with DVX100 either way 16:9 has less vertical resolution than 4:3. When using squeeze it comes out of the camera as full resolution file, but vertical resolution is artificial.

There are 3 ways to make 16:9 with DVX100, and they in theory all produce the same quality, only difference is who and when the uprezzing is done: a) Shoot 4:3, covert to 16:9, reframe vertically in edit if needed. b) Shoot letterbox, convert to 16:9, enlarge to get rid of the black frames. c) shoot squeeze.

Some say a) is best, because you can reframe if needed. Some think b) is best, as you can at least see the framing in camera and editor maybe uprezzes better than camera squeeze, this of course applies also to a). Some say c) is best, because the workflow is easiest.

Hope this helped.
 
arges03 said:
I don't know about the DVC-30, I would imagine it is the same as the DVX, but that is purely specualtion.

Having shot with my DVX and wanting a 16:9 look, IMO it is best to shoot normal 4:3 (unsqueezed and with no in camera letterboxing) and then add bars in post. Some edits might be a little tricky, but you always have the option of showing more of the top or bottom of your frame when you need to, since you shot it full frame and didn't use the camera's LB to cover it up.

I think whether you're using squeeze or LB, you would be throwing pixels away one way or another....

Have you looked into something like an anamorphic adapter for your DVC-30?
Click to expand...

I liked shooting 4:3 and adding bars in post because it does preserve
options
but my confusion came about when a vendor told me that if I can frame
right in the first place, letterboxing offers more resolotion because of the
way pixels are used (not exactly sure what way although he explained
it.)

I love the DVC-30 for certain projects but not going to spend any more
$ on it. I do have an HVX-200 so if somebody wants true 16x9 that's
what we'll use.

Thanks.
 
Squeeze on the DVX looks fantastic, if you're using progressive-scan mode (24p/25p/30p). If using interlaced (50i/60i) it's not as good, but in progressive it looks great.
 
Petrus said:
SD digital video picture size is 720*576 PAL or 720*480 NTSC no matter what kind of chip camera has, that is what is put on tape. Always, either 4:3 or 16:9 or letterbox (which is 4:3 and the file has no clue. Widescreen is flagged as such on the file).

DVX100 has (more or less) "native" 4:3 sensor. When shooting letterbox a considerable part of top and bottom pixels are not recorded on tape, but replaced with black. Or, to be more precise, they are recorded as black. Only about 720*3xx pixels are used for the image.

With squeeze mode the same central strip pixels are used to record the picture, true resolution is the same 720*3xx, but then the picture is uprezzed in camera vertically to make it full size DV 16:9 format, where the pixel count is the same as in 4:3 but pixels are rectacular.

The fact is that with DVX100 either way 16:9 has less vertical resolution than 4:3. When using squeeze it comes out of the camera as full resolution file, but vertical resolution is artificial.

There are 3 ways to make 16:9 with DVX100, and they in theory all produce the same quality, only difference is who and when the uprezzing is done: a) Shoot 4:3, covert to 16:9, reframe vertically in edit if needed. b) Shoot letterbox, convert to 16:9, enlarge to get rid of the black frames. c) shoot squeeze.

Some say a) is best, because you can reframe if needed. Some think b) is best, as you can at least see the framing in camera and editor maybe uprezzes better than camera squeeze, this of course applies also to a). Some say c) is best, because the workflow is easiest.

Hope this helped.
Click to expand...

Thank you. This does help indeed. I've shot 4x3 and added bars in post
but never done "b)" and would think that you're suggesting adjusting
the size of the image (at least in Final Cut Pro) and that usually
diminishes picture quality. Is it that the % increase is not that significant
or is special software used?

I'm also still wondering if there's anything to these different arguments
about more or less available/utilized pixels in 4:3 versus "letterboxing"
in camera makes a quality difference in one versus the other.

Thanks again.
 
Barry_Green said:
Squeeze on the DVX looks fantastic, if you're using progressive-scan mode (24p/25p/30p). If using interlaced (50i/60i) it's not as good, but in progressive it looks great.
Click to expand...

Hi Barry,

I'm really enjoying your HVX-200 book and DVDs.

I think that you say somewhere in there that if squeeze is used
it will look skinny on a standrad t.v. but be okay if played on that
t.v. through a DVD player since DVD players all have the ability
to sense the squeeze and adjust (unsqueeze I guess?)

Since most of the stuff that I'm concerened about is being distributed
on DVDs, would squeeze be the best way to go?

Thanks.
 
Well, actually a) and b) are identical as far as the conversion process is conserned, as in the data reality they both are 4:3 the only difference being that if you reframe letterboxed footage vertically you hit the black bars...

As both 4:3 and 16:9 (squeeze in DVX100) have the same number of pixels and the only difference is the flag in the 16:9 file which normal TV sets do not get when you feed the signal to them, they both are shown as 4:3. When you make a DVD the 16:9 flag in a widescreen DVD tells the DVD-player to letterbox the signal if the palyer is conneted to a 4:3 TV-set. If it is connected to a widescreen TV it tells the player to send a full frame wide signal to TV.

To clarify:

- 4:3 uses (almost) square pixels
- Letterbox 16:9 is in reality 4:3 image where upper and lower part of the image is framed with black to make a 4:3 TV-set show widescreen image (4:3 sets do not understand anything else but 4:3)
- 16:9 has the same number of pixels as 4:3, but they are wider than they are high. 4:3 TV-set does not understand this and shows it on 4:3 form resulting in "skinny" picture. Files on a 16:9 DVD have a flag which tells the player how to manipulate the video to make it show correctly on the set connected to the player.

Feed from the tape from camera to TV is analog, the pixel shape information is not carried to the TV. TV interpets everything as 4:3. With DVD the aspec ratio information is encoded to the file and DVD player acts accordingly and fits the signal to the TV-set connected to it (if the setup is done correctly).
 
Shoot in Squeeze mode progressive like Barry said PLUS set your camera to THIN. It makes a BIG difference.

As to the TV display relationship... you set that up in your DVD authoring software. Works like a dream.
 
Petrus said:
Well, actually a) and b) are identical as far as the conversion process is conserned, as in the data reality they both are 4:3 the only difference being that if you reframe letterboxed footage vertically you hit the black bars...

As both 4:3 and 16:9 (squeeze in DVX100) have the same number of pixels and the only difference is the flag in the 16:9 file which normal TV sets do not get when you feed the signal to them, they both are shown as 4:3. When you make a DVD the 16:9 flag in a widescreen DVD tells the DVD-player to letterbox the signal if the palyer is conneted to a 4:3 TV-set. If it is connected to a widescreen TV it tells the player to send a full frame wide signal to TV.

To clarify:

- 4:3 uses (almost) square pixels
- Letterbox 16:9 is in reality 4:3 image where upper and lower part of the image is framed with black to make a 4:3 TV-set show widescreen image (4:3 sets do not understand anything else but 4:3)
- 16:9 has the same number of pixels as 4:3, but they are wider than they are high. 4:3 TV-set does not understand this and shows it on 4:3 form resulting in "skinny" picture. Files on a 16:9 DVD have a flag which tells the player how to manipulate the video to make it show correctly on the set connected to the player.

Feed from the tape from camera to TV is analog, the pixel shape information is not carried to the TV. TV interpets everything as 4:3. With DVD the aspec ratio information is encoded to the file and DVD player acts accordingly and fits the signal to the TV-set connected to it (if the setup is done correctly).
Click to expand...

Awesome, thanks!
 
Take_1 said:
Shoot in Squeeze mode progressive like Barry said PLUS set your camera to THIN. It makes a BIG difference.

As to the TV display relationship... you set that up in your DVD authoring software. Works like a dream.
Click to expand...

Good tip about "thin" and I'll look into how I've been making
DVDs. Thanks a lot!
 
Only use the THIN setting if you are shooting squeeze. Otherwise, in any other 4:3 mode you will very likely see your image "ringing" in the fine details or high contrast areas. It works perfectly in squeeze mode though because of the "stretch" in the aspect ratio.
 
Take_1 said:
Only use the THIN setting if you are shooting squeeze. Otherwise, in any other 4:3 mode you will very likely see your image "ringing" in the fine details or high contrast areas. It works perfectly in squeeze mode though because of the "stretch" in the aspect ratio.
Click to expand...

Thanks for taking the time to add that. Probably saved me from finding
out the hard way!
 
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