Advice about sound recording for my film

prisma

prisma

Member
Im preparing everything to shot my 17 minutes short film in about 11 months on an HD camera without XLR imputs. (lots of planning going on) Anyway, Im a little bit confused about sound recording. The film involves two actors and 80% will be shot inside an apartment and a cofee shop with a 20% of shooting outdoors in a train station and a public park. I was thinking in getting a good entry level microphone like oktava mk012 (with the extreme weather windshield and shock mount) a boom pole and a XLR adapter like this:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=8673&A=details&Q=&sku=283321&is=REG&addedTroughType=categoryNavigation

i was thinking about conecting the oktava mic directly to the camera via this adapter. For ambient sound and sound effects I was thinking about a minidisc recorder and later add those soundtracks in post.

Do you guys think this XLR adaptor will capture good sound for my film? Do you think I need to get two microphones instead of one? one for each actor?

I will really apreciate all your comments.
 
You need a mixer or preamp to power the oktava. that adapter will not work. One mic should be fine. How mich do you have to spend?

Oktava $180 (sound-room.com)
K-Tek KSSM Shockmount with soft bands $110 (trewaudio.com)
Rycote Baby Ball Gag $140 (trewaudio.com)
Rycote Furry Jammer $70 (trewaudio.com)
Gitzo 12'5" carbon fiber pole (7560c?) $250 (I don't know whare to get this online besides B&H, I got it locally try not to buy from B&H)
Sound Devices Mixpre $665 (trewaudio.com)
Petrol PSDMB-302 Mixer Bag $135 (trewaudio.com)
Studio 1 Productions XLR Camcorder Audio Interface $180 (trewaudio.com)

http://www.trewaudio.com/store/product.php?productid=247&cat=31&page=1

$1727 without XLRs or sony 7506 headphones.

This would be a great starter kit you could grow with everything listed is of professional quality, so you won't be replacing it soon. If you skimp on parts, you will probably end up replacing them later.

I suppose you could try something like this instead of the mixer/beachtek, but you take away all of the features of a mixer that you really really need!

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/con...s&Q=&sku=418508&is=REG&addedTroughType=search
 
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What Mike said...

What HD camera are you using? Since they are starting to come out with consumer level HD cameras I am imagining they are also starting to have features like DV consumer cameras; ie can't turn off AGC.

If so you might want to reconsider the camera being your sole audio recording device.

Cheers
 
I'm guessing it's the FX1. Instead of getting a mixer for it get an XLR adapter with phantom power like the Beachtek DXA-6 ($250). You can turn off AGC on the FX1 btw. Take that $600 you saved and get the 7506 headphone or even an extra shotgun mic.
 
I think the mixer is very important. You get the level controls off the camera so you are not bumping the camera changing levels. Your sound recordist can worry about the sound levels for you, so you can concentrate on framing the shot. You get limiters that help keep your analog audio levels from clipping your digital recording system and causing distortion. You get low cut filter to help with handling/wind noise (especially great with the oktava, which is ultra sensitve to both). You get better, quiter preamps that are harder to clip (and lights that show it if they do). AND best of all and most important, the boom op (or sound recordist) can actually HEAR what the heck they are doing. You cannot over-estimate the importance of this!!
 
I'm not saying a mixer isn't important, it's simply that most people who are starting out simply couldn't afford one and still get the other equipments they need. The budget you listed for him is nearly 1800, more than one third is which is the mixer itself; it's doubtful that he would be willing to invest that much money for just this one film so I'm offering him an alternative. Like many of us (myself included), he can do perfectly fine without a mixer by going directly into a the camera, and once he gets more experienced with it he can move on to the bigger stuff.
 
All is right, with or without a mixer depending on project. Should the budget is low, getting a mixer to accompany the sound recordist is out of the question. I would just run into something like what Huy suggested, a Beachtek DXA-6. Has phantom power, and probably you could leave the input knobs at a desireable spot. Get a chance to send something like a 1kHz tone down into the Beachtek>Camera to make sure your levels are good. Most camera calibrations are -12db, but read around or the manual about it.

Getting a professional headphone is probably mandatory to monitor the level. You do want to know how it sounds being recorded into it right? Those less expensive non-closedback headphones will work, but you want to isolate your environment from the noise you are hearing.

I'm assuming those two actors will have lots of lines. Budget shows me that you should get Hypercardiod or a short shotgun (I'm leaning on the hyper more) due to your precentage of indoor shoots. The train station and the park may have some winds, but not strong enough to make a noticeable impact on your audio assuming you have proper wind protection. The mixer might be needed to monitor the levels better than the camera, but you should think about the number of channels you are attempting to record. Also, to have a backup recorder besides your HD camera if budget allows.

Let us know what you think.
 
Ya, it would be a good place to start cutting the budget. I think people skimp on audio when they don't really have to though. They get this X dollar budget stuck in their head that is unrealistic. Sometimes, with the proper coaxing, people find a little more money. With my list, you wouldn't be replacing things soon or buying things twice because the first thing didn't work right.
 
jade8472 said:
The budget you listed for him is nearly 1800, more than one third is which is the mixer itself; it's doubtful that he would be willing to invest that much money for just this one film so I'm offering him an alternative.
Click to expand...

How much was the HDV cam? :)

He can spend whatever he likes; he can get audio from a $50 radioshack mic on a broomstick. Unless he has someone who knows what he is doing, $50 will sound about the same as if he spent $1800. He could also rent the equipment, hire a someone, ADR the whole thing, or even neglect sound alltogether. Lots of options but as per my sig he can't have Good, Cheap, and Fast. Only get your two.

Prima, who is going to record your sound for you? Figure that out first before you start spending your cash. If you want to learn about audio yourself, start here: http://www.dplay.com/book/pgs2e/index.html

Cheers
 
Thank you for all your replies guys (wabbit, saneproductions, jade, Alan).

I thougth these type of XLR connectors included phantom power. So i guess i cant used them, or maybe i will end up buying it and geting a microphone with rechargables batteries. (those are really good around here, i mean the batteries, they last a lot) You know guys Im in switzerland and here everything is incredible expensive. Fortunatelly things are less expensive in germany wich is basicaly less than a mile away from my apartment crossing the rhein. LOL

My question is, ok supose that i get the mixer, my only concern is how can you operate the mixer outdoors without an AC outlet? My budget is really thigth, and the reason im waiting so long is becuase im buying the equipment little by little, i dont want to rent is ultra expensive around here.


i really apreciate that you take your time to read this post, and all your advice will be apreciated.
 
prisma said:
My question is, ok supose that i get the mixer, my only concern is how can you operate the mixer outdoors without an AC outlet?
Click to expand...
ENG/EFP mixers run on battery power. They're also portable, usually hung from a shoulder strap.

The Shure FP33 (3 mic or line inputs, stereo outputs) has a long track record as a solid entry-level location mixer, and it'll give you all the features you need (provided you bring along either a duplex cable or some other method of monitoring the camera's heaphone output). There are also plenty of these available used, as well as the noisier FP32's. I don't think the FP33's provide T-power, so if you're using T-powered mics you'll need a phantom-to-T adapter.

Sound Devices and PSC also make excellent location mixers, superior to the Shure products IMHO. The newer mixer models are also lighter than the FP33, which really gets heavy after hour 10.
 
personally, i think buying a beachtek is like flushing your money down a toilet. my opinion only, but i truly believe that sd mixpre is the lowest you can go without having wasted money.
 
SMuir said:
ENG/EFP mixers run on battery power. They're also portable, usually hung from a shoulder strap.

The Shure FP33 (3 mic or line inputs, stereo outputs) has a long track record as a solid entry-level location mixer, and it'll give you all the features you need (provided you bring along either a duplex cable or some other method of monitoring the camera's heaphone output). There are also plenty of these available used, as well as the noisier FP32's. I don't think the FP33's provide T-power, so if you're using T-powered mics you'll need a phantom-to-T adapter.

Sound Devices and PSC also make excellent location mixers, superior to the Shure products IMHO. The newer mixer models are also lighter than the FP33, which really gets heavy after hour 10.
Click to expand...
the fp-33 do have t power

http://www.musik-produktiv.de/shop2/shop04.asp/artnr/100009940/sid/!18121995/quelle/listen

this is the same as the nady

http://www.nady.com/pdf_files/manuals_pdf/audio/DMP2_manual.pdf


very cheap preamp you can use with your octava
the drow back you will need to go balance to unbalance on your camera
the best way is with waht you sow on the b@h but you can do it with out

all these really not such agood idia as to buy used eng mixer or at least single preamp from psc or sd , so you will be able normaly power yoiur mic and listen to returns from your camera , the psc is much better for 1 mic use as it has continues gain .
2 mics ?, depends on your shooting good boom operator can take most with 1 microphone if there are no problems with shadows .
you will need sort of boom , wind protection for the octava and good pair of headphones , of course cables from your amplifing device and back from the headphones ( or rca out)
does your camera have line level in , if not you will need pad down the signal from the preamp .
 
SMuir I bet that Shure FP33 is a great mixer but $1,200 dollars is beyond my budget. I think is beyond what any indie filmmaker can afford.

oleg2 can you use that preamp with a minidisc?


timapter that model that you recomend cost around $700 dollars, is there anything pro any cheaper than that?


wabbit this is the camera that im going to use. it is able to record true 1920 x 1080 HD at 24p.

http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/Canon-HV20-Yes-Its-True.htm


to everybody, what do you think about this mic. You can choose between two recording modes with it (hypercardioid and cardioid) is really cheap and doesnt need phantom power.

http://www.amazon.com/SA-568-Dual-Mode-Shotgun-Microphone-Accessory/dp/B0000E215C/ref=pd_bbs_1/002-1142382-9994465?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1173202758&sr=8-1

you can get this mic plus this boom pole for $204.90. doesnt sound like a good deal to you guys?

http://www.amazon.com/Gitzo-Microphone-Boom-Pole-Section/dp/B0002Q2BEK/ref=pd_bxgy_e_img_b/002-1142382-9994465?ie=UTF8&qid=1173202758&sr=8-1
 
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prisma said:
SMuir I bet that Shure FP33 is a great mixer but $1,200 dollars is beyond my budget. I think is beyond what any indie filmmaker can afford.

oleg2 can you use that preamp with a minidisc?


timapter that model that you recomend cost around $700 dollars, is there anything pro any cheaper than that?


wabbit this is the camera that im going to use. it is able to record true 1920 x 1080 HD at 24p.

http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/Canon-HV20-Yes-Its-True.htm


to everybody, what do you think about this mic. You can choose between two recording modes with it (hypercardioid and cardioid) is really cheap and doesnt need phantom power.

http://www.amazon.com/SA-568-Dual-Mode-Shotgun-Microphone-Accessory/dp/B0000E215C/ref=pd_bbs_1/002-1142382-9994465?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1173202758&sr=8-1

you can get this mic plus this boom pole for $204.90. doesnt sound like a good deal to you guys?

http://www.amazon.com/Gitzo-Microphone-Boom-Pole-Section/dp/B0002Q2BEK/ref=pd_bxgy_e_img_b/002-1142382-9994465?ie=UTF8&qid=1173202758&sr=8-1
Click to expand...

used fp-33 are about 800
sd mix pre is 665 and you can find used for much less
the psc preamp single channel is about 350 ( all the prices in the stes , in europe usially more)

this is consumer camcorder with probably not so good input audio stage
what i will suggest you will work with external recorder and sync manually the slates
that way you can just take something like zoom flash recorder and go directly with your microphone s abut 250-300us
stay away from that mic it doesnt worth 10$

you also can check the preamp - idont see allot of quality on that one but at least you will be able preamp and ride levels normaly
you will need attenuate the signal for minidisc as it has usually consumer level only and convert it to unbalance or if you use zoom to go directly line level .

also marantz 660 flash recorder could be something to consider to work directly , it abit noisy on its preamps but you will not have trouble if you working in relativly noisy places .
as you see you can get hd for a grand , it abit hard to get decent sound solution for the same sum :-)
 
Oleg 2 said:
as you see you can get hd for a grand , it abit hard to get decent sound solution for the same sum :-)
Click to expand...

I agree with you LOL

So you think that camera will not capture good sound even with the oktava mics and a good rented mixer? why you said that microphone on amazon is not worth $10? what kind of features are missing? or how you can judge is worthless?

Thanks
 
it missing one important feature - the good sound ;-)
you can by the same **** for less if you will look for AT -55 or similar .
its f noisy - it twist the actors voice .
Sorry it doesnt worth even 10 ( now you can figure how much they are making on you:-))

to0 check what camera worth i have to check it .
since i didn't worth i cant say exactly what kind of gain structure it has , but it obviously not something that will get cas aword for sure .
you need to check if you can by pass the preamp , almost sure you cant .
if you cant and go mic level check if you can manually ride the gain or it is automatically controlled only .
you will need to check the s/n ratio so you will be able recording low level conversation.
as i know the privius canons and since it is consumer product i wont be expect for something that sounds good. canon alwais where the last in the sound chain .
not to mention ,you are compressing your signal with hdv , what not so bad if you can feed the camera chain till a2 D converter with quality signal
( if you where going with z-1 or jvc - i was tell you go directly to the camera as you will get descent results with good preamp in front)
but this one is would be place cin over the crime:-)
external recorder is your best friend and much better mic is a better friend to your recorder , what maybe will give you nice soundtarck to your film as long you know what to do with the tools .
i may suggest you if you are going to shoot 3-4 days not buy equip but rent it from some one who can explain you how to use it best way , i may think the final results would be better then just buy what you can whit small knowledge for what it can and cant do .
my 2 shekels
 
yes, i think that for you rental is a good idea. and in answer to your question about pro for cheaper - no. sorry. even the mixpre is sort of prosumer. sorry mate.
 
prisma said:
SMuir I bet that Shure FP33 is a great mixer but $1,200 dollars is beyond my budget. I think is beyond what any indie filmmaker can afford.

oleg2 can you use that preamp with a minidisc?


timapter that model that you recomend cost around $700 dollars, is there anything pro any cheaper than that?


wabbit this is the camera that im going to use. it is able to record true 1920 x 1080 HD at 24p.

http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/Canon-HV20-Yes-Its-True.htm


to everybody, what do you think about this mic. You can choose between two recording modes with it (hypercardioid and cardioid) is really cheap and doesnt need phantom power.

http://www.amazon.com/SA-568-Dual-Mode-Shotgun-Microphone-Accessory/dp/B0000E215C/ref=pd_bbs_1/002-1142382-9994465?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1173202758&sr=8-1

you can get this mic plus this boom pole for $204.90. doesnt sound like a good deal to you guys?

http://www.amazon.com/Gitzo-Microphone-Boom-Pole-Section/dp/B0002Q2BEK/ref=pd_bxgy_e_img_b/002-1142382-9994465?ie=UTF8&qid=1173202758&sr=8-1
Click to expand...

That camera does not have full specs out but if it does not have manual controls you need to record seperate.

It sounds like you are attempting something at the hobby level, which is cool. I think your best bet is to either rent or start looking for a newbie sound guy looking to build a reel that might help your for the experience.

As already said, I wouldn't waste my money on that mic and pole. Someone talking in your budget range needs to be thinking; rent, borrow, rent, beg, rent, steal, or even rent (I do not endorse the second to last suggestion).

You don't list your location but maybe a fellow board member in your location would be willing to help you out.

Where you at dog?

:beer:
 
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