FCP Glitch ? Random and unexplainable frame rates?
- Thread starter doondoon
- Start date
Mitch_Ives
Well-known member
BenB said:
Yes, they were chasing problems and eventually realized there was some controller firware issues. I use mine as a redundant backup, but people trying to use them as a RAID for editing were experiencing dropped frames and other anomolies...
Mine is of fairly recent vintage, but you may have noticed that they suddenly stopped making the old ones and have a whole new product line overnight.
Did you JUST install new FCP ... if so did you run updates right away?doondoon said:
Because ...
Also if you have 5.0 which I do,BenB said:
then
upgrading to
5.0.4 = problem solved.
I think this P2 mac issue is like the HVX noise problem, more of a rumor.
If you have actually not only installed the new version, but ALSO upgraded online then I will eat my words.
But for me P2 = 100% working all the time on Mac with updated FCP.
When my hardrive failed last month and I reinstalled all my software I had problems with P2. I couldn't figure out why P2 worked with the same version of FCP before the crash and not now. Why was I having this trouble? Because it was NOT the same version of FCP. I had upgraded months ago and forgot I upgraded.
When I researched the problem what I found was basically -> make sure your software is up to date.
the following is from the PDF found at this link.
http://www.apple.com/support/lbn/?product=FinalCutPro&version=5.0&language=z
PDF detailing FCP updates and what they address including DVCpro HD and P2.
Hopefully you just need to update. If you have already then sorry, and never mind the paragraph I just wrote :beer:
GabePL
Member
I had this problem when i first switched to FCP 5.1.2. I found that if I go into the 'preferences' box for the 'import panasonic p2' window, and make sure to UNcheck the box for 'remove advanced pulldown and duplicate frames', it solves the problem. Don't know if it applies to your situation, but, your problem sounds IDENTICAL to the one i was having, and just from fooling around with it, I found that this helped, and after several months, and many many p2 imports, i have yet to encounter the problem again.
jcgardiner
Member
We just shot 18 8GB cards transferring on a PowerBook G4...Current set-up is as follows importing via pc card slot with the help of P2 genie to G-Drive via FW800. Everything worked flawlessly until the end of the day when all the folders were then copied to a second firewire drive a G-Raid via FW400....Everything appeared to copy just fine until we got back to the office when we tried to import the files into FCP 5.1.2 with OSX 10.4.8 on a PMG5 Dual. It appears that the footage on the G-Raid had corrupted MXF files....But when we tried the original offload drive it worked just fine. Seems the copy process went haywire somehow. At first I thought that the G-Raid was the culprit but the interesting thing was that there was one extra day that was shot only using the G-Raid without the back-up drive and all the footage transferred on that day was fine. Not sure if anyone has seen...On a side note we are also having issues when importing into FCP it seems that when loging/re-naming the clips in FCP P2 viewer it does not like longer descriptions it will not import the file on top of that it does not give any warning that the clip was not imported...This could be a real problem when you are bringing in a lot of footage. You have to manually keep track of the number of files you import or you run the risk of having to go back trying to find the couple of that decided not to make the trip. For those keeping score at home the camera firmware version is 2.03-00-0.00
Jan_Crittenden
Veteran
jcgardiner said:
Hi,
From the description of what happened it does not appear to have anything to do with the camera software level and more about what is going on with your system. Wouldn't a log of what caused the corruption be more helpful? What other software programs do you have running on your system?, What all is loaded on the computer? Were you performing any other task while the copy was taking place? Can you repeat this glitch?
Just trying to help folks isolate the cause of the problems.
Best,
Jan
jcgardiner
Member
Hi Jan,
I only mentioned the camera firmware for those tracking several post on-going about the Mac and issues surrounding import/offloading issues. I thought that I gave most of the relevant information on my system to compare notes. So in an effort to help I can boil it down as follows:
Offload System:
Powerbook G4 1.67
OSX 10.4.8
1 Gig Ram
7,200 80 GB HD
FCP 5.1.2
OT 7.1.3 (I think latest version)
P2 Genie
P2 Log Pro
Offloading P2 via PCMCIA to
G-Drive 250 GB attached by FW800
Back-up at end of the day to G-Raid 500 GB attached by FW400
Other software includes
Adobe CS2
iLife 06
Microsoft Office
NO anti Virus software installed
No other tasks were being performed while transferring
Please see my previous post regarding the issues that we experienced.
I will try over the weekend to recreate the cause but as many have stated before even losing a frame of footage really makes on very very nervous about the workflow.
I'll tell you what would be the best solution and I would buy it in a heartbeat would be a P2 Store like device. Only this device should be around 250GB be about the same size as the P2 Store which takes HVX batteries that has a pop-up 3" lcd that one could review the footage just like on the camera... I know one could get a windows laptop but to be honest for my run and gun work a laptop is just a PITA. I would like to be able to just power up the device put it on the ground (nice stable place) put in a card hit download come back to review that the footage safely made it off the card reformat and get back to shooting. If Panasonic made this product it could avoid the whole "3rd party issues" we are facing. It seems that since there are many different ways to perform the end task (getting footage off the card) and even more variables that exist that go way beyond the Windows Mac thing... such as which computer, what processor, what kind of drives...which operating system etc. etc. This could all be avoided if Panasonic would develop such a product. The camera is great could not ask for more (well maybe a bit better LCD and a quick way to delete last clip) but anyway it seems that the camera's workflow is way too dependent on other companies to perform the last and final step in the workflow.
Look forward to your reply.
By the way Jan did you ever get a chance to see the documentary I sent you....thanks again for the Digital Filmaker Grant the SDX-900 and the HVX-200 cut together really well.
All the Best
JG
I only mentioned the camera firmware for those tracking several post on-going about the Mac and issues surrounding import/offloading issues. I thought that I gave most of the relevant information on my system to compare notes. So in an effort to help I can boil it down as follows:
Offload System:
Powerbook G4 1.67
OSX 10.4.8
1 Gig Ram
7,200 80 GB HD
FCP 5.1.2
OT 7.1.3 (I think latest version)
P2 Genie
P2 Log Pro
Offloading P2 via PCMCIA to
G-Drive 250 GB attached by FW800
Back-up at end of the day to G-Raid 500 GB attached by FW400
Other software includes
Adobe CS2
iLife 06
Microsoft Office
NO anti Virus software installed
No other tasks were being performed while transferring
Please see my previous post regarding the issues that we experienced.
I will try over the weekend to recreate the cause but as many have stated before even losing a frame of footage really makes on very very nervous about the workflow.
I'll tell you what would be the best solution and I would buy it in a heartbeat would be a P2 Store like device. Only this device should be around 250GB be about the same size as the P2 Store which takes HVX batteries that has a pop-up 3" lcd that one could review the footage just like on the camera... I know one could get a windows laptop but to be honest for my run and gun work a laptop is just a PITA. I would like to be able to just power up the device put it on the ground (nice stable place) put in a card hit download come back to review that the footage safely made it off the card reformat and get back to shooting. If Panasonic made this product it could avoid the whole "3rd party issues" we are facing. It seems that since there are many different ways to perform the end task (getting footage off the card) and even more variables that exist that go way beyond the Windows Mac thing... such as which computer, what processor, what kind of drives...which operating system etc. etc. This could all be avoided if Panasonic would develop such a product. The camera is great could not ask for more (well maybe a bit better LCD and a quick way to delete last clip) but anyway it seems that the camera's workflow is way too dependent on other companies to perform the last and final step in the workflow.
Look forward to your reply.
By the way Jan did you ever get a chance to see the documentary I sent you....thanks again for the Digital Filmaker Grant the SDX-900 and the HVX-200 cut together really well.
All the Best
JG
filmstox
Well-known member
jcgardiner said:
JG would this suit your request?
Its the newly announced HPG10. No word yet on drive size but otherwise it seems to be just what you've described. Plus it has HD SDI in and out for recording and playback, 2 card slots, and a host of other goodies.
Thanks for posting the details of your system. Please post if you are able to replicate the problem. So far the only commonalities between your setup and Zoostory's is the G-Raid.
Can you double check that you are on 5.1.2, the upgrade to 5.1.3 is an automatic update and was my primary suspect for the source of the problem. But if you are 5.1.2 then the search must continue.
Thanks, and I'm glad to see Jan taking notice of the issue. Its always good to know someone at Panasonic cares.
jcgardiner
Member
Filmstox:
That little device would be great if it actually had a hard drive to record to..It is my understanding that it it can only record to the P2 cards. Not exactly sure of usefulness of such a product. But yeah exactly like this product but stick sizeable hardrive in there (larger than the current 60GB in the P2 Store) and you would have something. Laptops can do the job but in a documentary world as well as other situations where you have limited control of the action pulling out that laptop powering it up waiting to boot hoping that the laptop mounts the card launching P2 genie waiting for the transfer then opening FCP to see if all the clips made it just takes too long...It would be much much better if you could pull out one of these turn the power on and instantly unload the footage without the worries of did it actually transfer O.K.....I have used the P2 Store on several shoots and it works but it is neither large enough nor does it give you the ability to double check it in the field. Heck when the 16 GB cards come out you will only be able too offload 3 cards and by the end of the year hopefully when the 32 GB cards arrive you can only offload one card. It seems to me that if Panasonic wants to avoid the compatibility issue which has reared it ugly head for many users a product which can be designed to work specifically for this camera is not only ideal but necessary. Its only when users are using a thousand different ways to achieve the same goal (unloading the P2 card) where problems arise. I have full confidence in the camera and the P2 technology...However I feel that Panasonic should step up to the plate and provide a rock solid bullet proof solution for unloading the cards. While I think its great that they do offer the ability for people to choose whatever method suits them (some which can save money) but for me I would rather pay extra money to know that my footage is going to be there when I get back home. Some things you just can't reshoot....added to that the expense of hotels, car rental, air fare, sound, food and all the other production expenses and just the ability to assemble all those people at that place and time which is sometimes a miracle in itself....to risk all that by cutting corners and taking the cheap way out would be foolish and downright irresponsible for a Producer. After all P2 technology was never intended to be expendable media therefore I feel it is Panasonic's obligation to provide the necessary support for a complete P2 workflow. If they made it you don't have to buy it there are other ways the skin that cat...and for many many users this is not an issue at all...and good for them I am very happy that P2 works for there needs.
Those who say "hey if you want longer recording times just go ahead and use a firestore"....thanks but no thanks...once again the third party solution is more of a band aid than a real solution. If this truly was the way Panasonic envisioned this camera to work don't you think that they would have slapped a hardrive into the camera and skipped P2 altogether. I am sure it works great for many but in reality I just don't want to add unnecessary tethered equipment in which the vital footage hinges upon a 4 pin firewire connection to a hardrive. I just don't have enough faith in hard drives to do this and I think Panasonic feels the same way that is why they developed this P2 technology...They have so much faith in Hard drives that they require that the P2 Store is place on a stationary level surface. (by the way can't somebody make a locking firewire connection like a BNC plug???) Can't tell you how many times we has a crappy firewire plug that easily pulls out of our doorstop of a Sony deck) If you shooting off sticks not a problem probably works great but for those who do 90% of their work handheld this is not an ideal solution.
Don't get me wrong I love this camera and P2, I just don't like the last step....It is too easy to blame those who are having issues because they use x computer with y software. Panasonic should at least give the option, for those who truly value there work, a complete system that is bullet proof ready to edit...If we get to that point Panasonic has done their job and its up to Apple, Avid, Edius etc to get their NLE systems to work with the files. The entire importing issues that people are having... I lay that problem at the doorstep of these companies but at least provide an option that Panasonic stands behind and says "if you use this product you will get the footage off the cards safe and sound... for others who don't want to spend the extra money we offer other ways for you to do the job but we cannot guarantee it will work since there are too many variables that are beyond our control"....Only Panasonic knows all the technology that went into designing this workflow and therefore it can only be Panasonic that can deliver such a product. Not some after market third party. Though I do appreciete the efforts.
Thanks for listening and I hope my experience and knowledge can help others out there. If anyone has any questions or I can help out in anyway don't hesitate to contact me....We are all in this together....Literally
All the Best
JG
That little device would be great if it actually had a hard drive to record to..It is my understanding that it it can only record to the P2 cards. Not exactly sure of usefulness of such a product. But yeah exactly like this product but stick sizeable hardrive in there (larger than the current 60GB in the P2 Store) and you would have something. Laptops can do the job but in a documentary world as well as other situations where you have limited control of the action pulling out that laptop powering it up waiting to boot hoping that the laptop mounts the card launching P2 genie waiting for the transfer then opening FCP to see if all the clips made it just takes too long...It would be much much better if you could pull out one of these turn the power on and instantly unload the footage without the worries of did it actually transfer O.K.....I have used the P2 Store on several shoots and it works but it is neither large enough nor does it give you the ability to double check it in the field. Heck when the 16 GB cards come out you will only be able too offload 3 cards and by the end of the year hopefully when the 32 GB cards arrive you can only offload one card. It seems to me that if Panasonic wants to avoid the compatibility issue which has reared it ugly head for many users a product which can be designed to work specifically for this camera is not only ideal but necessary. Its only when users are using a thousand different ways to achieve the same goal (unloading the P2 card) where problems arise. I have full confidence in the camera and the P2 technology...However I feel that Panasonic should step up to the plate and provide a rock solid bullet proof solution for unloading the cards. While I think its great that they do offer the ability for people to choose whatever method suits them (some which can save money) but for me I would rather pay extra money to know that my footage is going to be there when I get back home. Some things you just can't reshoot....added to that the expense of hotels, car rental, air fare, sound, food and all the other production expenses and just the ability to assemble all those people at that place and time which is sometimes a miracle in itself....to risk all that by cutting corners and taking the cheap way out would be foolish and downright irresponsible for a Producer. After all P2 technology was never intended to be expendable media therefore I feel it is Panasonic's obligation to provide the necessary support for a complete P2 workflow. If they made it you don't have to buy it there are other ways the skin that cat...and for many many users this is not an issue at all...and good for them I am very happy that P2 works for there needs.
Those who say "hey if you want longer recording times just go ahead and use a firestore"....thanks but no thanks...once again the third party solution is more of a band aid than a real solution. If this truly was the way Panasonic envisioned this camera to work don't you think that they would have slapped a hardrive into the camera and skipped P2 altogether. I am sure it works great for many but in reality I just don't want to add unnecessary tethered equipment in which the vital footage hinges upon a 4 pin firewire connection to a hardrive. I just don't have enough faith in hard drives to do this and I think Panasonic feels the same way that is why they developed this P2 technology...They have so much faith in Hard drives that they require that the P2 Store is place on a stationary level surface. (by the way can't somebody make a locking firewire connection like a BNC plug???) Can't tell you how many times we has a crappy firewire plug that easily pulls out of our doorstop of a Sony deck) If you shooting off sticks not a problem probably works great but for those who do 90% of their work handheld this is not an ideal solution.
Don't get me wrong I love this camera and P2, I just don't like the last step....It is too easy to blame those who are having issues because they use x computer with y software. Panasonic should at least give the option, for those who truly value there work, a complete system that is bullet proof ready to edit...If we get to that point Panasonic has done their job and its up to Apple, Avid, Edius etc to get their NLE systems to work with the files. The entire importing issues that people are having... I lay that problem at the doorstep of these companies but at least provide an option that Panasonic stands behind and says "if you use this product you will get the footage off the cards safe and sound... for others who don't want to spend the extra money we offer other ways for you to do the job but we cannot guarantee it will work since there are too many variables that are beyond our control"....Only Panasonic knows all the technology that went into designing this workflow and therefore it can only be Panasonic that can deliver such a product. Not some after market third party. Though I do appreciete the efforts.
Thanks for listening and I hope my experience and knowledge can help others out there. If anyone has any questions or I can help out in anyway don't hesitate to contact me....We are all in this together....Literally
All the Best
JG
jcgardiner
Member
FilmstoX:
Sorry after all that I forgot to answer one of your questions...Yes indeed the powernac we are using is loaded with FCP 5.1.2 though I now see that FCP 5.1.4 is available. I guess I ge to skip the nightmare 5.1.3 issue. Lucky me.
But it gets me back to my point I am not blaming Panasonic for my issues importing into FCP... just getting the footage off the card. Heck I can spend all day(don't want to) trying to figure out workarounds to get footage into FCP. P2 Log Pro seems to do a better job though not as seemless.
Sorry after all that I forgot to answer one of your questions...Yes indeed the powernac we are using is loaded with FCP 5.1.2 though I now see that FCP 5.1.4 is available. I guess I ge to skip the nightmare 5.1.3 issue. Lucky me.
But it gets me back to my point I am not blaming Panasonic for my issues importing into FCP... just getting the footage off the card. Heck I can spend all day(don't want to) trying to figure out workarounds to get footage into FCP. P2 Log Pro seems to do a better job though not as seemless.
Barry_Green
Moderator
Panasonic doesn't make editing systems. But there are complete systems that are bulletproof ready to edit. EDIUS is the easiest example; you say you don't like the "last step" (of importing footage to a hard drive etc?) Get rid of that last step. Eliminate it. Use P2 the way it was meant to be used: shoot to the card, edit from the card. EDIUS does that. To some degree, so does Avid. And if you use RayLight, you can do the same workflow with Premiere Pro or Vegas. If you want absolute rock solid reliability and 100% perfect integration and workflow, try EDIUS. And then demand that FCP provide comparable functionality.jcgardiner said:
FCP has a fundamental conflict (right now) which will prevent it from ever embracing that workflow, until they pluck their heads out of their collective rumps and realize that native MXF files on the timeline is a GOOD thing, not a "bad thing." So far they have refused to do that, instead demanding that you convert your files to Quicktimes, saying stuff like "why would we want to go to an inferior format?" That attitude helps no one. (and, er, you allow .AVI files on the timeline already, so why not MXF?)
It is that refusal to work with the footage in its native format that is causing the headaches for FCP users. We can only hope that in FCP 6 they will finally enter the 21st century and embrace this workflow the way it's supposed to be worked with. As card sizes get larger and larger, they're going to be more and more practical to shoot onto and edit from, and they would take longer and longer to offload to a hard disk. The Quicktime rewrap is a dead-end process, and the sooner they get off that path and onto the MXF path the better it will be for users.
filmstox
Well-known member
JC,
I just reread the press release on the HPG10...
I think this is likely to be as good an answer to the "Official" end to end solution as we will see. I have 2 p2Stores and swear by them and if this unit is as well thought out as the P2Store then it will answer many of the nagging idiosyncracies with the workflow. But you have to be willing to pay the price.
On all other points in your post, I agree whole heartedly. I have settled on a workflow that I feel confident with on projects I produce and projects I DP, but helping other's through the variables has proven to be a second career.
I am likewise not a fan of the FireStore, we've been trying it out on Yahoo Live Sets on both the HVXs and the HDX400s and have had nothing but problems. We have 12 of them running and they seem to have problems with the vibrations from the concert sound system. We just shot with the 3.0 firmware and will find out from editorial if it has a future with the production. It seems like a viable option if you have the wherewithal to baby it, but for critical or valuable footage, I just don't trust it, certainly not as much as I trust P2.
Lets hope Final Cut has gotten it right with 5.1.4. The update file only mentions XML file import, not P2 specifically, so lets hope we fall under the larger XML umbrella for this fix.
I just reread the press release on the HPG10...
I think this is likely to be as good an answer to the "Official" end to end solution as we will see. I have 2 p2Stores and swear by them and if this unit is as well thought out as the P2Store then it will answer many of the nagging idiosyncracies with the workflow. But you have to be willing to pay the price.
On all other points in your post, I agree whole heartedly. I have settled on a workflow that I feel confident with on projects I produce and projects I DP, but helping other's through the variables has proven to be a second career.
I am likewise not a fan of the FireStore, we've been trying it out on Yahoo Live Sets on both the HVXs and the HDX400s and have had nothing but problems. We have 12 of them running and they seem to have problems with the vibrations from the concert sound system. We just shot with the 3.0 firmware and will find out from editorial if it has a future with the production. It seems like a viable option if you have the wherewithal to baby it, but for critical or valuable footage, I just don't trust it, certainly not as much as I trust P2.
Lets hope Final Cut has gotten it right with 5.1.4. The update file only mentions XML file import, not P2 specifically, so lets hope we fall under the larger XML umbrella for this fix.
jcgardiner
Member
Barry that is exactly what I said. I leave all the importing and file incompatibilty squarley on the shoulders of these NLE system manufacturers. Not blaming Panasonic for that at all.
Barry while I agree that editing straight from the P2 card would be the best solution in many many cases this is not realistic for those who aren't trying to meet the 5 o'clock news deadline. Most projects last longer than the evening news be it an Indie film, documentary, corporate piece whatever....very few projects last one day... I had 4 8GB cards on hand with my last shoot (a 4,500 investment) gave me 80 minutes of continuous shooting. When we are shooting roughly 3 times that amount on a given day for several days far from home in another city I have to onload the cards at somepoint be it in the field or back at the hotel. To dismiss the needs of the majority of users here and say that oh just go ahead and edit from the cards is just not practical. Even if I were to buy another 8x8GB cards to get me through a day of shooting by your logic you then say I have to go back to the hotel room edit the story together that night layback to HDCAM on my super portable G5 Kona 3 system with 2.5 T Raid....that is of course assuming that all the footage shot in one day makes a show. Come on
All I am asking for is a P2 store device that has a larger hard drive and a viewer built in just like the camera where I can go through a see each clip. Don't need or want any editing functions just plain old get my footage off the P2 cards safely into non-corupted .MXF files I'll take it from there....but at the moment it seems that Panasonic has left it up to us to get the footage off the cards which to me seems like they are missing the final step. If they would just produce such an item Panasonic could then say to its customers that "hey look this is the best way to do this becasue we designed it specifically for P2 we control all the software and hardware so we can guarentee that this is going to work....if you use x or y method we can not guarantee this since we have no control over all the 3rd party products that you might employ to achieve this task.
Just offer the option to have a certified way off ofloading the footage the way P2 was designed to do. At the moment all the options to do this have major flaws.
Barry while I agree that editing straight from the P2 card would be the best solution in many many cases this is not realistic for those who aren't trying to meet the 5 o'clock news deadline. Most projects last longer than the evening news be it an Indie film, documentary, corporate piece whatever....very few projects last one day... I had 4 8GB cards on hand with my last shoot (a 4,500 investment) gave me 80 minutes of continuous shooting. When we are shooting roughly 3 times that amount on a given day for several days far from home in another city I have to onload the cards at somepoint be it in the field or back at the hotel. To dismiss the needs of the majority of users here and say that oh just go ahead and edit from the cards is just not practical. Even if I were to buy another 8x8GB cards to get me through a day of shooting by your logic you then say I have to go back to the hotel room edit the story together that night layback to HDCAM on my super portable G5 Kona 3 system with 2.5 T Raid....that is of course assuming that all the footage shot in one day makes a show. Come on
All I am asking for is a P2 store device that has a larger hard drive and a viewer built in just like the camera where I can go through a see each clip. Don't need or want any editing functions just plain old get my footage off the P2 cards safely into non-corupted .MXF files I'll take it from there....but at the moment it seems that Panasonic has left it up to us to get the footage off the cards which to me seems like they are missing the final step. If they would just produce such an item Panasonic could then say to its customers that "hey look this is the best way to do this becasue we designed it specifically for P2 we control all the software and hardware so we can guarentee that this is going to work....if you use x or y method we can not guarantee this since we have no control over all the 3rd party products that you might employ to achieve this task.
Just offer the option to have a certified way off ofloading the footage the way P2 was designed to do. At the moment all the options to do this have major flaws.
jcgardiner
Member
Filmstox:
I will go back a re-read this as well. If this unit can do this it should be the ticket for now. Though I would have prefered an on-board HD....its that firewire/usb thing that scares me at times....plus once again you are introducing potential conflict....Bad cable, people not buying the right kind drive, smaller capcity if you want to not have to rely on AC power (bus powered G-Mini tops out at 160 GB)....its just on more thing to carry around that could go wrong. I too love the P2 store have used it several times but its a bit slow on the transfer due to USB, has a feable HD space and no viewer to double check to see if the footage made it...I don't know about you but it still is a leap of faith after the P2 store finishes the transfer. You look at it and it says completed....then your like OK I guess I believe you time to wipe out all the footage on the card....first couple of times is a bit nerve racking....Have had great resultts with it and the part about it being slow on the transfer is really no big deal....heck back at the hotel I am waiting hours and hours for batteries to charge.
All I am really saying is that it is in Panasonics best interest to make such a product...then they can say "this is what we suggest using...we designed it, we tested it, we support it and we alone update it" no more 3rd party nightmares...as they say if you want something done right do it yourself...don't rely on others to finish the job for you.
Pardon me I got run I have to figure out how to get my G5 Tower, Kona 3, HD studio monitor, mixer, Genelec monitors, HDCam deck packed in a pelican case to put in the overhead so I can shoot, edit, write, post a show in one night so I can use my cards the next day...
What is bag size limit again???
I will go back a re-read this as well. If this unit can do this it should be the ticket for now. Though I would have prefered an on-board HD....its that firewire/usb thing that scares me at times....plus once again you are introducing potential conflict....Bad cable, people not buying the right kind drive, smaller capcity if you want to not have to rely on AC power (bus powered G-Mini tops out at 160 GB)....its just on more thing to carry around that could go wrong. I too love the P2 store have used it several times but its a bit slow on the transfer due to USB, has a feable HD space and no viewer to double check to see if the footage made it...I don't know about you but it still is a leap of faith after the P2 store finishes the transfer. You look at it and it says completed....then your like OK I guess I believe you time to wipe out all the footage on the card....first couple of times is a bit nerve racking....Have had great resultts with it and the part about it being slow on the transfer is really no big deal....heck back at the hotel I am waiting hours and hours for batteries to charge.
All I am really saying is that it is in Panasonics best interest to make such a product...then they can say "this is what we suggest using...we designed it, we tested it, we support it and we alone update it" no more 3rd party nightmares...as they say if you want something done right do it yourself...don't rely on others to finish the job for you.
Pardon me I got run I have to figure out how to get my G5 Tower, Kona 3, HD studio monitor, mixer, Genelec monitors, HDCam deck packed in a pelican case to put in the overhead so I can shoot, edit, write, post a show in one night so I can use my cards the next day...
What is bag size limit again???
jcgardiner
Member
Barry:
By the way I completely agree with you on the FCP side of this. Let's hope that NAB will unleash a new era for FCP. They did such a great job supporting all the DVCpro formats let hope they see the light here...I can't tell you how frustrating it is to have to render footage that is of a different format on a given timeline. I just edited a documentary that had DVX-100, DVX-100+anamorphic lens, SDX-900 DVCpro50, and HVX 720p and it was a nightmare.
Come on Barry you got Panasonics ear....suggest a "Super P2 Store" I would pay through the nose for that kind of security.
All The Best
JG
By the way I completely agree with you on the FCP side of this. Let's hope that NAB will unleash a new era for FCP. They did such a great job supporting all the DVCpro formats let hope they see the light here...I can't tell you how frustrating it is to have to render footage that is of a different format on a given timeline. I just edited a documentary that had DVX-100, DVX-100+anamorphic lens, SDX-900 DVCpro50, and HVX 720p and it was a nightmare.
Come on Barry you got Panasonics ear....suggest a "Super P2 Store" I would pay through the nose for that kind of security.
All The Best
JG
jcgardiner
Member
Filmstox:
I took a look again at the soon to be released AG-HPG10 player/recorder. To me it looks like nothing more than an HVX-200 with out the lens. and at nearly $4000 dollars you might as well just get another HVX-200 and use that to offload. Invest another 1,300 and you get a backup camera with a free 8GB card....as well as another copy of Barry's excellent book.
I'm tellin you guys a "Super P2 Store" is the answer....O.K. maybe the name needs reworking but the concept is everything that you need until we have 200 GB P2 cards for $49.95 that you can pick up at Radio Shack.
I took a look again at the soon to be released AG-HPG10 player/recorder. To me it looks like nothing more than an HVX-200 with out the lens. and at nearly $4000 dollars you might as well just get another HVX-200 and use that to offload. Invest another 1,300 and you get a backup camera with a free 8GB card....as well as another copy of Barry's excellent book.
I'm tellin you guys a "Super P2 Store" is the answer....O.K. maybe the name needs reworking but the concept is everything that you need until we have 200 GB P2 cards for $49.95 that you can pick up at Radio Shack.
Barry_Green
Moderator
I wasn't saying that editing from the cards is entirely practical for all projects, just that that's what the system is designed for. Why do you think the external P2 card readers have five slots when you only need one to offload? Because you're *not supposed* to offload! But yes, with today's tiny card capacities the practicality of editing off the cards is limited to smaller projects. But that's where it's headed, and editors need to support that capability if they want to ride the wave.
The "super P2 Store" you want is available today: a Windows XP laptop computer with a PCMCIA/CardBus slot. Dirt cheap, runs the P2 Viewer, 100% reliable, and has potentially infinite storage. You don't have to pay through the nose for it, you can get it for half the cost of a P2 Store; sometimes you can find stripped-down models for under $500. If all you want to do is have a 100% guaranteed safe way of offloading your cards, as well as a way to play back the footage, see the thumbnails, even edit the metadata -- you can do that today with a WinXP laptop.
The "super P2 Store" you want is available today: a Windows XP laptop computer with a PCMCIA/CardBus slot. Dirt cheap, runs the P2 Viewer, 100% reliable, and has potentially infinite storage. You don't have to pay through the nose for it, you can get it for half the cost of a P2 Store; sometimes you can find stripped-down models for under $500. If all you want to do is have a 100% guaranteed safe way of offloading your cards, as well as a way to play back the footage, see the thumbnails, even edit the metadata -- you can do that today with a WinXP laptop.
jcgardiner
Member
I know they have P2 Card readers out there that have 5 slots....but if you are saying that P2 footage was never to be offloaded how in the heck are you supposed to archive the project. I think one of the many uses of P2 technology is that you can edit straight from the cards...But that is hardly the only way Panasonic intended this to be used otherwise why would they have created the P2 store.
and going the route of a Windows Laptop or Mac for that matter has its flaws. The bulk of it (I can't realistically have laptop strapped to my waist) with something the size of a P2 Store that does not have to wait to boot up and launch several applications is huge. Panasonic almost got it right with the P2 store though a bit overpriced. Just add a viewer and larger capacity and your there. Believe me Barry even with a windows laptop which seems to be bulletproof is not a great solution....
It really comes down to Panasonic to fully support the P2 workflow. I'm telling you remove all the 3rd party conflict, the portability issue and most off all dummy proof the darn thing for those who refuse to read manuals.. OK maybe the last thing is a bit over the top but it really take that AG-HP10 player recorder stick a larger capacity HD in there and its settled.....no need for anything else.....heck you don't even have to waste time and money in R&D trying to come up with larger capcity cards.
Just a "Smart P2 Store"
Still working on that name
JG
and going the route of a Windows Laptop or Mac for that matter has its flaws. The bulk of it (I can't realistically have laptop strapped to my waist) with something the size of a P2 Store that does not have to wait to boot up and launch several applications is huge. Panasonic almost got it right with the P2 store though a bit overpriced. Just add a viewer and larger capacity and your there. Believe me Barry even with a windows laptop which seems to be bulletproof is not a great solution....
It really comes down to Panasonic to fully support the P2 workflow. I'm telling you remove all the 3rd party conflict, the portability issue and most off all dummy proof the darn thing for those who refuse to read manuals.. OK maybe the last thing is a bit over the top but it really take that AG-HP10 player recorder stick a larger capacity HD in there and its settled.....no need for anything else.....heck you don't even have to waste time and money in R&D trying to come up with larger capcity cards.
Just a "Smart P2 Store"
Still working on that name
JG
filmstox
Well-known member
Interesting Point. Now if only I could get my business partner to pony up the cash for a second camera!jcgardiner said:
Actually, I think I preffer the HPG10 solution (or 2nd HVX for that matter) to the "Super P2 Store" because at the end of the day, you still have to transfer the footage off of the "SP2S" (is that a better name?) and whamo you're back in the wild world of IT. So it works out like this...
HVX -> P2 Card -> SP2S -> PC/MacBook -> External HDD/2nd Backup HDD/DVD/DLT
or
HVX -> P2 Card -> HPG10 -> External HDD -> 2nd BackUp HDD -> PC/MacBook -> DVD/DLT
So with the HPG10, I can be on the road and have everything on redundant cheap hard drives without needing a PC until I want to Burn DVD's or Archive to DLT. With the SP2S, I am still limited to it's capacity. So maybe I go 2 or 3 days before I have to hook up to the PC but I still haven't reached a shelvable archive without jumping into the IT fray.
As a side note I also tend to keep footage on the smallest hard drive possible to limit the loss if and when that hard drive fails, this is one of the reasons the P2Store is only 60Gb, that is the largest single platter drive available. Multiple platters multiplies the risk of a head crash with every new platter. Larger drives = riskier.
I think Panasonic got it right with the HPG10. Now turn me loose with one for a feature or two and I might change my mind. But for now I think it gives us a valid new option that keeps us in Pansonic Land as long as possible.
Great discussion by the way.
jcgardiner
Member
Filmstox:
I like the idea of the HPG10 it just seems to be a little more than I need. I have revised my wishful workflow due to your insights (especially the one about the single v.s multiple platters on high capacity HD)
O.K. here it goes and this is really just temp solution until the cards get more affordable and cheaper which will see by the end of the year but that is 10 months away.
In the old days when we were shooting Beta SP I could pretty much budget around a case of tape per day (5 hours) so to translate that into P2 720 PN terms I need 15x8GB cards or 120 GB of storage...At the moment I have 2x8GB cards (I borrowed 2 cards from a friend) so in reality I need space for that 104 GB of footage if I had 2 P2 stores that would do the trick....and still come in cheaper than the HPG10 the only problem is that it is still USB only (not a deal breaker) but it lacks the ability to view the material once it has made the trip to IT world.
If the P2 store had the viewer built in sign me up I can deal with the lower capacity. Then when back at the ranch I can offload these to the hard drives.
Filmstox you get my whole point about the longer you stay in the Panasonic World the better your chances you won't have any corrupted footage....They really made a nifty (did I just say nifty??) product in the P2 store. The whole laptop in the field for my situation and I am sure a ton of people is not ideal. I just want to remove any 3rd party out of the equation when it comes to getting the footage off the card. I like to think that Panasonic would embrace these sentiments as it would alleviate any doubts about P2 and its future in production. Not to mention it would be a real money maker....for anyone with this type of production work it would be just as important as the camera itself.
It just spooks me and the producer when we wipe the cards off after transferring to the P2 Store. Though I have a lot of confidence in the P2 Store because I have never been burned. However I do see some people claiming that the first volume on the P2 Store has trouble mounting at times. But that doesn't seem like a P2 Store issue. Reformatting the P2 Store drive can be a tough exercise at times (seems that little button just doesn't want to be pushed in...nothing a 10 penny nail doesn't fix) But like I said I can deal with this when I am back at the Hotel or Office.
Sorry to the original poster for Hijacking this post...I do hope that everyone can benefit from my experiences.
Slogan for the day "Hooked on Panasonic's worked for me"
Have a great weekend everyone
All the Best
JG
I like the idea of the HPG10 it just seems to be a little more than I need. I have revised my wishful workflow due to your insights (especially the one about the single v.s multiple platters on high capacity HD)
O.K. here it goes and this is really just temp solution until the cards get more affordable and cheaper which will see by the end of the year but that is 10 months away.
In the old days when we were shooting Beta SP I could pretty much budget around a case of tape per day (5 hours) so to translate that into P2 720 PN terms I need 15x8GB cards or 120 GB of storage...At the moment I have 2x8GB cards (I borrowed 2 cards from a friend) so in reality I need space for that 104 GB of footage if I had 2 P2 stores that would do the trick....and still come in cheaper than the HPG10 the only problem is that it is still USB only (not a deal breaker) but it lacks the ability to view the material once it has made the trip to IT world.
If the P2 store had the viewer built in sign me up I can deal with the lower capacity. Then when back at the ranch I can offload these to the hard drives.
Filmstox you get my whole point about the longer you stay in the Panasonic World the better your chances you won't have any corrupted footage....They really made a nifty (did I just say nifty??) product in the P2 store. The whole laptop in the field for my situation and I am sure a ton of people is not ideal. I just want to remove any 3rd party out of the equation when it comes to getting the footage off the card. I like to think that Panasonic would embrace these sentiments as it would alleviate any doubts about P2 and its future in production. Not to mention it would be a real money maker....for anyone with this type of production work it would be just as important as the camera itself.
It just spooks me and the producer when we wipe the cards off after transferring to the P2 Store. Though I have a lot of confidence in the P2 Store because I have never been burned. However I do see some people claiming that the first volume on the P2 Store has trouble mounting at times. But that doesn't seem like a P2 Store issue. Reformatting the P2 Store drive can be a tough exercise at times (seems that little button just doesn't want to be pushed in...nothing a 10 penny nail doesn't fix) But like I said I can deal with this when I am back at the Hotel or Office.
Sorry to the original poster for Hijacking this post...I do hope that everyone can benefit from my experiences.
Slogan for the day "Hooked on Panasonic's worked for me"
Have a great weekend everyone
All the Best
JG