Barry_Green
Moderator
This of course involves no P2 hardware at all, so this is a rather serious issue. You have, I trust, reported this to Apple?ozduc said:
P2 glitch similar to 'tape hits'
- Thread starter JimmyTheSaint
- Start date
ullanta
Veteran
Hey guys... I can't find the reference... does anyone remember exactly what the similar issue was way back when, that was solved by an FCP upgrade (the 5.0.4, maybe)? Might be helpful to bring that back into the conversation...?
Wait - I remember - there was a processor-specific issue, I think, that caused problems on G5s when dealing with some HVX footage... some problem in the Quicktime conversion. Anyone remember details?
Wait - I remember - there was a processor-specific issue, I think, that caused problems on G5s when dealing with some HVX footage... some problem in the Quicktime conversion. Anyone remember details?
Aron Peterson
Active member
Macs have no problem reading and writing data from FAT32 disks or Flash memory. Could the problem really be in Panasonic's P2 drivers? If the majority of HVX users work on Macs and only a minority are hit with the problem it could be the P2 drivers that are glitchy. Panasonic and Apple appear to have relationship problems as mentioned elsewhere, and that could be the reason for poor drivers and lack of Panasonic utilities.
ullanta
Veteran
I'm not convinced that there is a P2 problem. From most of the posts I've read, this may indeed be an FCP problem.
Is there anyone, who has followed the "Make image files" approach who has had trouble with those image files later? Have these images ever had trouble on a PC?
Frankly, I sat around and, while doing other things, repeatedly inserted/ejected/imported from a P2 card on a G4 laptop (A). At one point (after a few cycles) I did indeed get a corruption message from FCP. However, after quitting FCP, I was able to burn and verify a disc image directly from the P2 card (using Toast), and use that DVD in another machine (B) to import successfully. The card was (of course) write protected, and after restarting the original mac (A), the P2 card again worked fine for FCP imports.
Another odd thing I noticed was that after a few cycles, the time it took to mount the P2 card after insertion increased drastically - in fact, the system would freeze up for half a minute or so before the card mounted. After a restart, again there were a few fast (almost immediate) mounts, then slow ones again.
Ah, the elucidation of torture testing! I've never imported cards in large numbers before, and thus didn't see these issues.
But brief results:
1) Even when FCP says clips are corrupted, other applications can create perfect and workable images of the P2 cards.
2) There's SOMETHING going on with mounting... so far doesn't correlate with FCP corruption.
Is there anyone, who has followed the "Make image files" approach who has had trouble with those image files later? Have these images ever had trouble on a PC?
Frankly, I sat around and, while doing other things, repeatedly inserted/ejected/imported from a P2 card on a G4 laptop (A). At one point (after a few cycles) I did indeed get a corruption message from FCP. However, after quitting FCP, I was able to burn and verify a disc image directly from the P2 card (using Toast), and use that DVD in another machine (B) to import successfully. The card was (of course) write protected, and after restarting the original mac (A), the P2 card again worked fine for FCP imports.
Another odd thing I noticed was that after a few cycles, the time it took to mount the P2 card after insertion increased drastically - in fact, the system would freeze up for half a minute or so before the card mounted. After a restart, again there were a few fast (almost immediate) mounts, then slow ones again.
Ah, the elucidation of torture testing! I've never imported cards in large numbers before, and thus didn't see these issues.
But brief results:
1) Even when FCP says clips are corrupted, other applications can create perfect and workable images of the P2 cards.
2) There's SOMETHING going on with mounting... so far doesn't correlate with FCP corruption.
ozduc
Well-known member
ullanta said:
Yes this is something I have encountered as well. I use to reboot after a few cards as it would freeze up. Then one day I let it go when it froze and it took about 2-3 minutes and it unfroze and mounted. But it definitely gets progressivly worse the more cards you insert.
kyle_doris
Well-known member
sounds like using XP via bootcamp is the way to go when copying large quantities of P2 footage to a macbook pro eh?
Barry_Green
Moderator
There are two different issues. One is an FCP problem (or perhaps an OSX problem?) wherein clips get reported as being "corrupted" when, in fact, they are not.
The second problem is more serious, in my opinion, and does appear to be related to the way some Macs handle P2 -- and that's that the data is actually not being read from the card accurately. This problem has nothing to do with FCP. This is the "glitch". It happens entirely independent of FCP, it happens when the cards are copied over (or, in n8ture's case, it can happen just from playing footage through P2 Log directly from the card).
So, two separate issues. Both need fixing.
The second problem is more serious, in my opinion, and does appear to be related to the way some Macs handle P2 -- and that's that the data is actually not being read from the card accurately. This problem has nothing to do with FCP. This is the "glitch". It happens entirely independent of FCP, it happens when the cards are copied over (or, in n8ture's case, it can happen just from playing footage through P2 Log directly from the card).
So, two separate issues. Both need fixing.
How to we correct the corrupt DMG problem. Every once in a while a DMG of my p2 card will get corrupted and say "no file system" Then that card is worthless. I copied a DMG from one drive to another, and opened on the new drive it was all screwy. I opened the old dmg and it was perfect. Then my firewire controller shut down and ejected the old dmg only to corrupt it as it was open. Luckly using disk utility to eventually make a clone of the dmg on the new hard drive worked. But we have some cards that are completely gone. 4 Gigs (3.67) of data on hard disk but no file system on the card and it won't open.
Out of 300 P2 dumps, we have ZERO dropout or noise, but 3 DMG's were suddenly not readable. Most happens when copying from one drive to another. I would say, even though it takes longer to create and to open, making a "read only" disk image is the way to go.
Out of 300 P2 dumps, we have ZERO dropout or noise, but 3 DMG's were suddenly not readable. Most happens when copying from one drive to another. I would say, even though it takes longer to create and to open, making a "read only" disk image is the way to go.
Barry_Green
Moderator
From what I understand, and I could be wrong, there is nobody at Panasonic responsible for the drivers. Panasonic doesn't, hasn't, and won't do a stitch of code for any Mac product. Makes no sense to me, but I can't find any evidence to the contrary!ullanta said:
So Apple writes all the Apple software. Apple wrote the drivers, near as I can tell. Apple also wrote FCP. And Apple wrote OSX.
Every single possible glitch/thing here that's happening, can only be fixed by Apple. Sounds like I'm pointing fingers, but I'm actually making it sooooo much easier to resolve. Once you can identify and rule out any other party, it's so much easier for the responsible party to just dig in and get to it.
ullanta
Veteran
Barry_Green said:
I dunno - the P2 drivers are available only from Panasonic, right? Apple claims and supplies everything else, including little HVX-specific things like the frame rate converter, so the drivers seem to be a different case. I'm not reacting to finger pointing; I'm really curious about how this works, and why there's such a disconnect.
As you've seen, I'm neither eager nor averse to blaming Apple for issues. But the little bit of software here most in question - the P2 driver - is not clearly from Apple; and is distributed by Panasonic. Further, these drivers, if written by Apple, are dependent on specifications supplied by Panasonic. PC developers arent working from the same set of specs; they're provided software. I don't know why it would be, but there may indeed be a problem with the information Apple has.
Anyway, it's all a little odd to me. Why does a P2 card need a driver? I doubt the likes of us (not under NDA and developer partnership with Panny) will get an answer any time soon... but most storage technologies don't need specific drivers these days; certainly CardBus drives, flash adapters, etc. don't. If the P2 card is a CardBus storage device formatted for FAT32, what unique functionality requires a specific driver?
Anyway, I guess that's digressing, but I'd like to find out for certain who DID write that software... I know Panny doesn't like to touch Apple, but it doesn't seem like Apple wrote it, either!
Hey, I'd be happy if we could indeed narrow it down so! I'm just not 100% certain. The copyright on the software is Matsushita, and a lot of the descriptive material in the install package is Japanese... compiled by user HENDO...
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The problem tak1108 mentioned on the previous page involves data getting corrupted during transfer between Firewire hard drives. That doesn't even involve a PCMCIA slot or the P2 drivers -- just the OS and whatever drivers it provides.
ullanta
Veteran
Yes, that's certainly something different. However, it also seems to be something that's happening only with P2 data, if I'm not mistaken... are people running into this with other data? I certainly haven't heard of it.
Which means that P2 images themselves, as well as P2 cards, may have something the Mac isn't always dealing well with...
Which means that P2 images themselves, as well as P2 cards, may have something the Mac isn't always dealing well with...
Barry_Green
Moderator
Yes, but from all that I can find out (which is admittedly little, mainly talking to whatever rep I can find at a trade show etc) the drivers weren't written by Panasonic. According to BenB, he's had two different Panasonic reps tell him that Panasonic never has written, and never will write, a single line of code for a Mac; their engineers are all WinXP. That's the same kind of response I'm getting when I ask.ullanta said:
That certainly sounds plausible as well.
Because it's not just a storage device. Spec-Comm found that out the hard way. Apparently a P2 Card is an intelligent device that has to be able to react and respond to something like 40+ different commands that are sent to it. Spec-Comm made a post to that effect here somewhere around a year ago, and it was most illuminating.
It's not just a storage device. And this is why those cheapo readers will never work for a P2 card. Whatever device it's put into has to know how to talk to it.
Maybe at NAB I'll go to the Panasonic booth and drag some of the japanese engineers over to the Apple booth and make 'em answer that question definitively!
ullanta
Veteran
Ah, the mystery. There's the in-between space, which seems most plausible to me: Panasonic may have contracted someone (not Apple) to get the job done. Also interestingly, from what I can ferret out of the software packages, it hasn't been modified since mid-95 - long before it was in wide use, it seems.Barry_Green said:
I must have missed that... I'll try to track it down!
Let's get all the mac folks to pitch in and rent a booth; put a cage in it; lock the Apple and Panny engineers in there together for the duration of NAB?
Aron Peterson
Active member
Barry_Green said:
That's wrong. Panasonic's P2 drivers are by Panasonic, if not then by an associated third party. If they were written by Apple coders they would have been included in the last two OS updates along with all other drivers written by Apple.
ullanta
Veteran
Not necessarily. When dealing with proprietary information/trade secrets, all kind of strange arrangements happen. I don't believe it to be the case, but it's not inconceivable that the software is developed by Apple but can only be distributed by Panasonic. But this is what the Green Barry has solemnly promised to find out at NAB.
Aron Peterson
Active member
ullanta said:
It'll be a first for Apple not to included a driver they wrote in an OS update. All drivers written by Apple from Flash drive support, graphic cards, etc are rolled out with each software update. Apple likes to maintain tight quality control of drivers they write.
I just checked the driver package and inside there is a 'Description.plist' file with Japanese text under the driver version and also the info.plist file reads...
1.01, Copyright (C) : 2005 Matsushi*a Electric Industrial Co., Ltd.
There's your driver author.
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It's your mac and FCP not the P2.
I bet you could write-protect to prevent any possible disc writes to be sure the P2 couldnt possibly ever be corrupted. Then if you were to copy the data to a PC then import it on the mac the PC version would be fine and your mac version would have errors. I bet you would have the same result whether the mac or the pc copied the files first.
I bet hundreds of people have deleted their perfectly fine footage as MXF data thinking its unuseable and corrupted because theyre utterly convinced that their mac could never be flawed.
If i can offload in a dusty subway tunnel while standing in 3 inches of cess-water as trains whip past 3 feet away, the whole time the PC laptop precariously wedged onto a small brick outcropping without losing a single pixel. Then I'm sure all these mac guys losing footage while in temperature and humididity controlled studios using nice conditioned power is not the fault of the P2 format.
I bet you could write-protect to prevent any possible disc writes to be sure the P2 couldnt possibly ever be corrupted. Then if you were to copy the data to a PC then import it on the mac the PC version would be fine and your mac version would have errors. I bet you would have the same result whether the mac or the pc copied the files first.
I bet hundreds of people have deleted their perfectly fine footage as MXF data thinking its unuseable and corrupted because theyre utterly convinced that their mac could never be flawed.
If i can offload in a dusty subway tunnel while standing in 3 inches of cess-water as trains whip past 3 feet away, the whole time the PC laptop precariously wedged onto a small brick outcropping without losing a single pixel. Then I'm sure all these mac guys losing footage while in temperature and humididity controlled studios using nice conditioned power is not the fault of the P2 format.